Suggestions for speed workouts....

Gary said:

Hey for those of you who don't know I'm a senior in high school and
i've been doing 8miles 6 days a week at around a 7 minute mile pace
(It's around 30 seconds off depending on how good I feel) and I just
started to do some speed work on tuesday with thursday.

Tuesday was 7 800s between 2:37- 2:49 with my third one at a 2:32

Thursday was mile with a 5:38 and a 5:49 the second one I ran on the
track by myself.

Thanks for the help.

Probably others could be more helpful if you filled in what your goals
are.

Are you looking at running 5k's, 10k's? Are you going to run cross
country or track next year for your high school?

Lots of automated programs and websites that will crank out for you a
set of workouts if you input distance you are training for and the
time that you want to run along with how far out in time the race is.

Gary said:

Hey for those of you who don't know I'm a senior in high school and
i've been doing 8miles 6 days a week at around a 7 minute mile pace
(It's around 30 seconds off depending on how good I feel) and I just
started to do some speed work on tuesday with thursday.

Tuesday was 7 800s between 2:37- 2:49 with my third one at a 2:32

Thursday was mile with a 5:38 and a 5:49 the second one I ran on the
track by myself.

Thanks for the help.

Poke your GF with a pin, and as she flys around the room deflating run
after her. That's the best speed work for you.

Quoted message said:

Gary said:

Hey for those of you who don't know I'm a senior in high school and
i've been doing 8miles 6 days a week at around a 7 minute mile pace
(It's around 30 seconds off depending on how good I feel) and I just
started to do some speed work on tuesday with thursday.

Quoted message said:

Tuesday was 7 800s between 2:37- 2:49 with my third one at a 2:32

Quoted message said:

Thursday was mile with a 5:38 and a 5:49 the second one I ran on the
track by myself.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for the help.

Probably others could be more helpful if you filled in what your goals
are.

Are you looking at running 5k's, 10k's? Are you going to run cross
country or track next year for your high school?

Lots of automated programs and websites that will crank out for you a
set of workouts if you input distance you are training for and the
time that you want to run along with how far out in time the race is.

I'm running 5ks and I would like to do well in both but I'd rather be
really good at track. For the 5ks I would like to break 17s but I'm
probably looking around a 17:30 at the moment.

"Gary" wrote
| I'm running 5ks and I would like to do well in both but I'd rather be
| really good at track. For the 5ks I would like to break 17s but I'm
| probably looking around a 17:30 at the moment.

Didn't you have trouble in your last 5K and could only get 22:xx?
How about goals in steps, like 20:xx->19:xx->18:xx and so on?

Gary said:

Quoted message said:

Gary said:

Hey for those of you who don't know I'm a senior in high school and
i've been doing 8miles 6 days a week at around a 7 minute mile pace
(It's around 30 seconds off depending on how good I feel) and I just
started to do some speed work on tuesday with thursday.

Quoted message said:

Tuesday was 7 800s between 2:37- 2:49 with my third one at a 2:32

Quoted message said:

Thursday was mile with a 5:38 and a 5:49 the second one I ran on the
track by myself.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for the help.

Probably others could be more helpful if you filled in what your goals
are.

Are you looking at running 5k's, 10k's? Are you going to run cross
country or track next year for your high school?

Lots of automated programs and websites that will crank out for you a
set of workouts if you input distance you are training for and the
time that you want to run along with how far out in time the race is.

I'm running 5ks and I would like to do well in both but I'd rather be
really good at track. For the 5ks I would like to break 17s but I'm
probably looking around a 17:30 at the moment.

my fav for 5k was decastella reps

200m fast + 300m float
6 x ( 400m fast + 300m float )
+ 300 m fast

It looks a bit complicated, but basically, the goal is to alternate a 400m rep
with a 300m float. The first and last rep are cut short to make the total
distance exactly 5k. Also, it works out that both the 1600m and 3k split are
right at the end of a rep, so you get some sense of your progress in the
workout.

Goal is to hit *exactly* the same pace on the reps, and to do the recoveries
as fast as possible (slow them down if you have to, but the reps should not
get slower). For you, the reps should be at about 85 seconds (this sounds slow
but those short recoveries catch up to you!), and try to do the recoveries at
95 seconds per lap. When you first do the workout, you will probably find you
drop to a jog on the recoveries after 3k. When you can do the whole thing
smoothly, with all recoveries at a good clip (about 95 seconds per lap or a
total time of about 18:35) then drop the pace on the reps to ~83. Do this
until your total time is around 18:10 (25 seconds faster) then drop the goal
pace on the reps again ...

Key is to time the whole workout. If you can hit about 17:30 for the workout
(about 80s with 90/lap on recoveries), then you are in shape for about 17:00.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

"Elflord" wrote
| Key is to time the whole workout. If you can hit about 17:30 for the workout
| (about 80s with 90/lap on recoveries), then you are in shape for about 17:00.

To race a 5K in 17:00, you have to be able to do the 5K training in 17:30?

200m fast + 300m float=500 m
6 x ( 400m fast + 300m float )=4200 m
+ 300 m fast=300 m

total of 5000 m in 17:30 with fast+float(recovery)?

Please correct me if I misinterpreted this.

In rec.running said:

"Elflord" wrote
| Key is to time the whole workout. If you can hit about 17:30 for the workout
| (about 80s with 90/lap on recoveries), then you are in shape for about 17:00.

To race a 5K in 17:00, you have to be able to do the 5K training in 17:30?
200m fast + 300m float=500 m
6 x ( 400m fast + 300m float )=4200 m
+ 300 m fast=300 m

total of 5000 m in 17:30 with fast+float(recovery)?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

Please correct me if I misinterpreted this.

It's not a formal requirement, but certainly a reasonable and attainable goal
for someone who wants to run 17:00. I ran this workout in I think 17:04 or so.
My 10k time was 34:33 (that's comparable to about 16:35 5k. My actual 5k PR was
a bit slower, 16:53)

It's a very demanding workout, but the variation in pace makes it
psychologically more manageable than a steady paced time trial.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

"I2Run" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Elflord" wrote
| Key is to time the whole workout. If you can hit about 17:30 for the
workout
| (about 80s with 90/lap on recoveries), then you are in shape for about
17:00.

To race a 5K in 17:00, you have to be able to do the 5K training in 17:30?

200m fast + 300m float=500 m
6 x ( 400m fast + 300m float )=4200 m
+ 300 m fast=300 m

total of 5000 m in 17:30 with fast+float(recovery)?

Please correct me if I misinterpreted this.

Based on seeing this workout description in the past, seems you've got it
right! Strikes me as implausible since you'd think the changes of pace would
slow your overall time down much more than that, but I've never tried it.
The alternating 300s and 400s would confuse me. I don't think that my local
track is marked every 100, though of course that could be measured or
estimated. Not that I'm thinking of doing these - simple time-based repeats
and/or fartlek will have to suffice for my recreational goals 😉

-Tony

Tony S. said:

Based on seeing this workout description in the past, seems you've got it
right! Strikes me as implausible since you'd think the changes of pace would
slow your overall time down much more than that,

As I pointed out, the change of pace makes it *physiologically* easier to
maintain a level of effort that is physiologically quite demanding.

It is very hard to hold a fast pace for almost 20 minutes without a rabbit or
a race setting. It is much easier to push the pace in an interval workout.

Quoted message said:

but I've never tried it.
The alternating 300s and 400s would confuse me.

Yes, they probably would.

Quoted message said:

I don't think that my local
track is marked every 100,

Doesn't matter. The floats can be approximate. The 400m reps need to be exact,
but that only requires you start and finish each one at the same point.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

I2Run said:

"Gary" wrote
| I'm running 5ks and I would like to do well in both but I'd rather be
| really good at track. For the 5ks I would like to break 17s but I'm
| probably looking around a 17:30 at the moment.

Didn't you have trouble in your last 5K and could only get 22:xx?
How about goals in steps, like 20:xx->19:xx->18:xx and so on?

He's run 2 miles at about a 5:30 pace, and his mileage is solid. I don't think
that other race *cough* is much of a basis for goal setting.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Elflord said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think that my local
track is marked every 100,

Quoted message said:

Doesn't matter. The floats can be approximate. The 400m reps need to be exact,
but that only requires you start and finish each one at the same point.

And it will help you if you don't start and finish those 400m reps at
the 400m start/finish line.

At least on European-style tracks the 100s are indirectly marked by
the beginning/end of a curve/straight and if you make one such
junction your starting point, it will be dead easy to nail those
awkward 300m float distances...

(BTW I got another feather in my cap as a long distance coach by using
this Elflord variation of de Castella reps as the sole track interval
session for a female sub-1.30 runner. FWIW the other interval, on
roads, was 4x4min/3min at 90%/70% HRM.)

Anders

"I2Run" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Elflord" wrote
| Key is to time the whole workout. If you can hit about 17:30 for the
workout
| (about 80s with 90/lap on recoveries), then you are in shape for about
17:00.

To race a 5K in 17:00, you have to be able to do the 5K training in 17:30?

Another predictor that I find works (and worked for my elite and sub-elite
buddies) is:

3 x 1 mile, full recovery (I used to jog 4 minutes or so). Run so that all
are within 10 sec of each other (means no balls-to-the-wall efforts).

Your average pace will be your 5k pace. So when you get the average to
5:28/mile, you're ready to taper and assault 17:00.

Hey DR, what is your 5k -- was it as good as your 10k and did you use the
Deek workout?

D Stumpus said:

"I2Run" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Elflord" wrote
| Key is to time the whole workout. If you can hit about 17:30 for the
workout
| (about 80s with 90/lap on recoveries), then you are in shape for about
17:00.

To race a 5K in 17:00, you have to be able to do the 5K training in 17:30?

Another predictor that I find works (and worked for my elite and sub-elite
buddies) is:

3 x 1 mile, full recovery (I used to jog 4 minutes or so). Run so that all
are within 10 sec of each other (means no balls-to-the-wall efforts).

Your average pace will be your 5k pace. So when you get the average to
5:28/mile, you're ready to taper and assault 17:00.

Hey DR, what is your 5k -- was it as good as your 10k and did you use the
Deek workout?

The 5k was 16:53, which isn't as good as my 10k time. I ran that fairly close
to the 10k, I had slightly better conditions in the 10k.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

I 'd suggest adding another day between the speedwork to reduce
the chance of injury.
However, at you ge your bodies recover fairly quickly.

rick++ said:

I 'd suggest adding another day between the speedwork to reduce
the chance of injury.
However, at you ge your bodies recover fairly quickly.

Wow! TWO sentances today Rick++? You're on a roll dude! And only two
minor faux paux's too. Very good mon Idiot.

rick++ said:

I 'd suggest adding another day between the speedwork to reduce
the chance of injury.
However, at you ge your bodies recover fairly quickly.

I'd suggest adding an "a" to spell age correctly, and get your GED
soon like Lance did.

anders said:

Elflord said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think that my local
track is marked every 100,

Quoted message said:

Doesn't matter. The floats can be approximate. The 400m reps need to be exact,
but that only requires you start and finish each one at the same point.

And it will help you if you don't start and finish those 400m reps at
the 400m start/finish line.

At least on European-style tracks the 100s are indirectly marked by
the beginning/end of a curve/straight and if you make one such
junction your starting point, it will be dead easy to nail those
awkward 300m float distances...

That's more or less the way to do it. This won't always give exact distances,
but it is pretty close. As I pointed out, it doesnt matter a whole lot if
the recoveries alternate between 280m and 320m. What's important is hitting
the reps at the target pace, and keeping a fast overall pace (I liked to check
splits at 1200m, 1600m, 3000m and even 4400m which was about 2min from the
finish)

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Gary said:

Hey for those of you who don't know I'm a senior in high school and
i've been doing 8miles 6 days a week at around a 7 minute mile pace
(It's around 30 seconds off depending on how good I feel) and I just
started to do some speed work on tuesday with thursday.

Tuesday was 7 800s between 2:37- 2:49 with my third one at a 2:32

Thursday was mile with a 5:38 and a 5:49 the second one I ran on the
track by myself.

Thanks for the help.

one of my fav HS CC speed workouts were doing 400's (number varied
depending on if you made the goal pace or not. Usually I like to do 3
misses and your out).

We would set a goal (usually faster than race pace) and then run a 400
at that pace. The rest was limited, keep your heart rate up. As we
would go throughout the workout people would miss there target, and
after 3 misses you were out. People that fell off would supplement by
some slower milage usually around campus (we had a loop and if you
fell out then when the loop came back you would join that group. It
was a lot for the coach to keep track of but it usually worked out.
Typically only 2-3 people "finished" the track workout. But it was
fun. If you were having a bad day you could run a few repeats and then
get some mileage in.

My buddy likes to do what he calls the hat drill. You pick a set time
say 75 seconds, and from the starting line have your watch count down
to 75 seconds (pick a healthy pace for the 75 seconds). At the end of
75 seconds put your hat down at that spot. Then try and do (what ever
number you choose) repeats where you, in the 75 seconds, get to or
past the hat. If you get past the hat move it to the new spot. If you
fall short, run harder on the next repeat.

hope those help

John

rick++ said:

I 'd suggest adding another day between the speedwork to reduce
the chance of injury.
However, at you ge your bodies recover fairly quickly.

That is good advise. Especially since the first race will not be for a
few more weeks. Speed every other day (and not always on the track) is
good for this point. Keep the mileage up.

John