suggestions on a smooth tread tire

tread has nothing to do with grip in the wet; Believe me. I live in Ireland and I've cycled in the
wet thousands of times with slick tyres.

yes, so i read... (just found ;-)

isc.faqs.orgsection 9.htmlOpen ↗

personally, without factual evidence in hand to prove it, i have had no reservations in using slicks
in any weather condition. i'm more concerned about my coif than anything tread-wise...

eric fresno, ca.

Quoted message said:

From: "Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee" <[email hidden]> Organization: Esat Net Customer
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 08:02:07 +0100 Subject: Re: suggestions on a
smooth tread tire

tread has nothing to do with grip in the wet; Believe me. I live in Ireland and I've cycled in the
wet thousands of times with slick tyres.

eric said:

i currently have at LEAST ten year old Pariba 20-622 Formula clinchers on my 1983 bianchi campione
d'italia. smoooooth tread, which i like at least for its looks. but the threading is fraying at
some points. the bike's been unused most of these past 10-15 years.

can someone recommend replacements? i'm thinking 700x23c would be good, smooth tread once again.
all-black if possible.

Smooth tread, all-black: Avocet "Carbon-12". Great tire, and available cheap from some mail-order
houses since Avocet does such a crappy job of advertising that no one buys these great tires.

Quoted message said:

and in an effort to keep this on-topic if that's a concern, are smooth tread tires all they were
once cracked up to be?

What is _not_ all that it is cracked up to be is patterened tread. Slick tires do as well as
anything else in the rain. Snow and mud is another matter, perhaps.

Quoted message said:

fresno, ca.

But you don't get a whole lot of snow (or rain) in Fresno. I know, I grew up there. Riding there is
a challenge, since it is so flat until you either get out to the river bluffs, or (better) head
towards the Sierra foothills.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all _`\(,_ | mysteries, and all
knowledge; and though I have all faith, so (_)/ (_) | that I could remove mountains, and have not
charity, I am nothing. [1 Corinth. 13:2]

Hello again David:

Where can these Avocet Carbon 12 tires be obtained? Is the sizing now accurate? If not, can you say
how wide the 23c or 25c tire really is?

Thanks, John Black

New Avocet Fasgrip tires (carbon 12 model with black side walls) can be found either here:
sheldonbrown.com622.htmlOpen ↗ or here:
nashbar.comprofile.cfmOpen ↗ 3&storetype=&estoreid=

As for "accuracy" of width, if you get the all black/black sidewalls version, then the tires are
accurately label, e.g., 700x25 = 25mm wide. If you find any with the tan sidewalls, those are
inaccurately label, e.g., 700x28 = 24-26mm wide...

An example of a place with what appears to be the older "inaccurate versions, e.g., 700x28 is
gtgtandems here: gtgtandems.comtires.htmlOpen ↗

"John Black" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello again David:

Where can these Avocet Carbon 12 tires be obtained? Is the sizing now accurate? If not, can you
say how wide the 23c or 25c tire really is?

Thanks, John Black

John Black said:

Hello again David:

Where can these Avocet Carbon 12 tires be obtained? Is the sizing now accurate? If not, can you
say how wide the 23c or 25c tire really is?

I got a pair from either Nashbar or Performance on closeout, but I confess I have yet to use them. I
had bought the last 3 of the old style from Sheldon and still have one of those unused as well.

But I understand that what they now call 23 is what used to be called 25, and on my wheels measures
at least 22mm across. It does matter what rim you use, but this is within reasonable tolerances of
correct. What they now call 25 they used to call 28 and again is reasonably close to 25, or at least
the old 28 measures 25.

Does that make sense? If so, I'm sorry.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I can _`\(,_ | assure you that mine
are all greater. -- A. Einstein (_)/ (_) |

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Black said:

Hello again David:

Where can these Avocet Carbon 12 tires be obtained? Is the sizing

now

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

accurate? If not, can you say how wide the 23c or 25c tire really

is?

Quoted message said:

I got a pair from either Nashbar or Performance on closeout, but I confess I have yet to use them.
I had bought the last 3 of the old style from Sheldon and still have one of those unused as well.

But I understand that what they now call 23 is what used to be called

25,

Quoted message said:

and on my wheels measures at least 22mm across. It does matter what

rim

Quoted message said:

you use, but this is within reasonable tolerances of correct. What

they

Quoted message said:

now call 25 they used to call 28 and again is reasonably close to 25,

or

Quoted message said:

at least the old 28 measures 25.

Does that make sense? If so, I'm sorry.

I am using the Carbon 12s. I still think that the old SuperComp HDs have better traction in the
rain. But then again, maybe I just have fond recollections. -- Jay Beattie.

eric said:

yes, so i read... (just found ;-)

isc.faqs.orgsection 9.htmlOpen ↗

personally, without factual evidence in hand to prove it, i have had no reservations in using
slicks in any weather condition.

From the link:

Quoted message said:

commonly used for racing cars, and another twenty before they reached racing motorcycles. Today,
slicks are used in all weather by most street motorcycles.

This is complete nonsense. Anyone who tried to race a motorcycle on slicks in the rain wouldn't make
it through the first braking zone. In motorcycle racing, when it starts to rain during a race, the
race is halted so the riders can come in and switch to what are called "rain tires", which look a
lot like knobbies. (They have a different compound as well, but they are loaded with tread to
channel water)

When the track is damp but it's stopped raining, there's always a big gamble on whether to got
with full rain tires, slicks, or intermediates. If it starts raining again and you're on slicks,
you've blown it.

It could be that bicycle tires are too small for the tread to be useful in the rain; I dunno. But to
claim that road-racing motorcycles use slicks in the rain is just factually incorrect. You should
see the panic in a GP race when it starts to rain...all the riders slow way down and point to the
sky to tell the marshalls to stop the race so they can change tires.

I tried to find a picture of a racing rain tire, but couldn't manage to Google one up. Here's a
place that sells racing slicks and rains, though:

bibmen.comtype.htmlOpen ↗

near the bottom.

Duke

Duke Robillard said:

Quoted message said:

isc.faqs.orgsection 9.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

without factual evidence in hand to prove it, I have had no reservations in using slicks in any
weather condition.

Quoted message said:

From the link:

Quoted message said:

commonly used for racing cars, and another twenty before they reached racing motorcycles. Today,
slicks are used in all weather by most street motorcycles.

Quoted message said:

This is complete nonsense. Anyone who tried to race a motorcycle on slicks in the rain wouldn't
make it through the first braking zone.

Not so fast. Different tread compound on M/C tires is not a tread pattern and tires used in the rain
are not a maze of sipes and grooves as was formerly assumed necessary.

Quoted message said:

In motorcycle racing, when it starts to rain during a race, the race is halted so the riders can
come in and switch to what are called "rain tires", which look a lot like knobbies. (They have a
different compound as well, but they are loaded with tread to channel water)

How about giving a link to tires that have these water channels.

Quoted message said:

It could be that bicycle tires are too small for the tread to be useful in the rain; I dunno. But
to claim that road-racing motorcycles use slicks in the rain is just factually incorrect. You
should see the panic in a GP race when it starts to rain...all the riders slow way down and point
to the sky to tell the marshalls to stop the race so they can change tires.

You are confusing cause and effect. The panic is about traction and that is principally tread
compound as is listed here:

"This is the ultimate DOT racing tire. Michelins newest Supersport tires are available in 3
different compounds. These tires build upon the race winning Pilot Race series of tires. The
Semi-Slick tread pattern maximizes the contact patch, especially at full lean angles."

Quoted message said:

I tried to find a picture of a racing rain tire, but couldn't manage to Google one up. Here's a
place that sells racing slicks and rains, though:

Quoted message said:

bibmen.comtype.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

near the bottom.

As you see, the slicks shown are touted as:

"Sport riding tires at the next level. The Pilot Sport has been designed to give excellent
traction under just about any condition. Michelin's patented Silicium tread compound, which uses
100% silica reinforcing fibers promotes exceptional grip, especially on wet and cold roads while
also extending the Pilot Sport's tread life."

This tire has large slick sections with occasional grooves by which remaining tread thickness can be
assessed. These grooves are required by law. Note that bicycles rarely exceed 50mph, have a contact
patch smaller than any smooth area on a modern motorcycle tire and have no power input where lean
angles are large.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

Duke Robillard said:

I tried to find a picture of a racing rain tire, but couldn't manage to Google one up. Here's a
place that sells racing slicks and rains, though:

Quoted message said:

bibmen.comtype.htmlOpen ↗

I think you wanted to find the Bridgestone page:

motorcycle-karttires.comRain.aspOpen ↗

Note that these tires use the YEK compound. Even among these, engineering would have a hard time
explaining the difference between front and rear tread patterns and the shape of their grooves.
Imagine adapting such tread patterns to a 25mm cross section bicycle tire?

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

In article said:

Duke Robillard said:

Quoted message said:

isc.faqs.orgsection 9.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

without factual evidence in hand to prove it, I have had no reservations in using slicks in any
weather condition.

Quoted message said:

From the link:

Quoted message said:

commonly used for racing cars, and another twenty before they reached racing motorcycles.
Today, slicks are used in all weather by most street motorcycles.

Quoted message said:

This is complete nonsense. Anyone who tried to race a motorcycle on slicks in the rain wouldn't
make it through the first braking zone.

Not so fast. Different tread compound on M/C tires is not a tread pattern and tires used in the
rain are not a maze of sipes and grooves as was formerly assumed necessary.

Quoted message said:

In motorcycle racing, when it starts to rain during a race, the race is halted so the riders can
come in and switch to what are called "rain tires", which look a lot like knobbies. (They have a
different compound as well, but they are loaded with tread to channel water)

How about giving a link to tires that have these water channels.

Quoted message said:

It could be that bicycle tires are too small for the tread to be useful in the rain; I dunno.
But to claim that road-racing motorcycles use slicks in the rain is just factually incorrect.
You should see the panic in a GP race when it starts to rain...all the riders slow way down and
point to the sky to tell the marshalls to stop the race so they can change tires.

You are confusing cause and effect. The panic is about traction and that is principally tread
compound as is listed here:

"This is the ultimate DOT racing tire. Michelins newest Supersport tires are available in 3
different compounds. These tires build upon the race winning Pilot Race series of tires. The
Semi-Slick tread pattern maximizes the contact patch, especially at full lean angles."

Quoted message said:

I tried to find a picture of a racing rain tire, but couldn't manage to Google one up. Here's a
place that sells racing slicks and rains, though:

Quoted message said:

bibmen.comtype.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

near the bottom.

As you see, the slicks shown are touted as:

"Sport riding tires at the next level. The Pilot Sport has been designed to give excellent
traction under just about any condition. Michelin's patented Silicium tread compound, which uses
100% silica reinforcing fibers promotes exceptional grip, especially on wet and cold roads while
also extending the Pilot Sport's tread life."

This tire has large slick sections with occasional grooves by which remaining tread thickness can
be assessed. These grooves are required by law. Note that bicycles rarely exceed 50mph, have a
contact patch smaller than any smooth area on a modern motorcycle tire and have no power input
where lean angles are large.

That tire is a street radial. Ironically, most race series that normally call for DOT tires (which
generally look like these street tires but use a racing compound) allow the riders to switch to
non-DOT race wets in wet conditions.

I have taken your theories about using slicks on bicycles to heart. But the FAQ is rather misleading
on this point when it comes to motorcycles, especially racing motorcycles:

motous.webmichelin.comwets.htmOpen ↗

This page shows a picture of Michelin's intermediate and wet racing tires. Note the open-block
design of the rain front, and the well-chanelled design of the intermediate rear.

Note also that these tires run _very_ soft compounds that work at relatively low tire temperatures.
The wets are virtually useless in dry conditions and their performance degrades rapidly as they heat
up on a dry track. The Intermediates cost motorcycle racers seconds per lap (maybe 1%-10+%
performance difference) compared to proper-compound slicks in the dry.

I'm not sure what proportion of the performance difference for these tires is for tread and what
part for compound, but rear tires on road or racing motorcycles can now be 190 mm wide radials; at
that width the tire has a substantial flat section of tread between the two curvedbits that you do
the cornering on.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club