Suprebe Pro crank

Quoted message said:

What is the recommended spindle length and taper for the old school
Suntour Superbe Pro crank? Thanks, J.P.

IIRC 113 mm and a Sun Tour taper, which is 2 degrees but the end of
the BB axle is smaller than a Shimano. If you can't find an
appropriate Sun Tour BB (try eBay if you don't have any old bike shops
in your are), a Campagnolo 113 mm BB for a Veloce crank ought to
suffice. Phil Wood reportedly makes a 113 mm BB specifically for
Superbe cranks; one is on my wife's bike but I can't tell any
difference from the standard Shimano taper.

Quoted message said:

What is the recommended spindle length and taper for the old
school Suntour Superbe Pro crank?

How old?

The model that was available until the mid-nineties (with "Superbe Pro"
printed along the crank) used a Suntour 109mm spindle as standard,
according to the Sunotur catalogue. These are now scarce. A Campagnolo AC-H
111mm is a good modern alternative. I've also used a Shimano UN-72 107mm -
the taper engagement isn't as good as with the Campag, but chainline is the
same, and it's been reliable. A Campag Chorus or Record 102mm with a 3mm
spacer under the fixed cup also works well. There may be better
alternatives, but those are the ones I've tried.

James Thomson

James Thomson said:

Quoted message said:

What is the recommended spindle length and taper for the old
school Suntour Superbe Pro crank?

How old?

The model that was available until the mid-nineties (with "Superbe Pro"
printed along the crank) used a Suntour 109mm spindle as standard,
according to the Sunotur catalogue. These are now scarce. A Campagnolo AC-H
111mm is a good modern alternative. I've also used a Shimano UN-72 107mm -
the taper engagement isn't as good as with the Campag, but chainline is the
same, and it's been reliable. A Campag Chorus or Record 102mm with a 3mm
spacer under the fixed cup also works well. There may be better
alternatives, but those are the ones I've tried.

James Thomson

no, tim has it - campy is the way to go. i had this issue with a
superbe pro crank about 4 weeks ago. the veloce bb is the right taper &
length, shimano definitely not. and the incorrect taper on the shimano
exacerbates the bb length problem.

jim beam said:

no, tim has it - campy is the way to go.

Quoted message said:

i had this issue with a superbe pro crank about 4 weeks ago.
the veloce bb is the right taper & length,

The AC-H I recommended above (111mm) is equivalent to the Veloce model, but
of better (Centaur) quality. Campagnolo doesn't sell a 113mm bottom
bracket.

Quoted message said:

shimano definitely not.

"the taper engagement isn't as good as with the Campag"

Nevertheless, it's been reliable for a great many miles now, and I'm in no
hurry to replace it.

Quoted message said:

and the incorrect taper on the shimano
exacerbates the bb length problem.

There is no length problem if the length (107mm) is chosen to account for
the differing taper engagement.

The third option (Chorus 102mm with a spacer) is my favourite for its very
low Q, at the expense of a little asymmetry. Chainline is fine, and the
taper is - of course - the same as the AC-H.

James Thomson

James Thomson said:

jim beam said:

no, tim has it - campy is the way to go.

Quoted message said:

i had this issue with a superbe pro crank about 4 weeks ago.
the veloce bb is the right taper & length,

The AC-H I recommended above (111mm) is equivalent to the Veloce model, but
of better (Centaur) quality. Campagnolo doesn't sell a 113mm bottom
bracket.

Quoted message said:

shimano definitely not.

"the taper engagement isn't as good as with the Campag"

Nevertheless, it's been reliable for a great many miles now, and I'm in no
hurry to replace it.

Quoted message said:

and the incorrect taper on the shimano
exacerbates the bb length problem.

There is no length problem if the length (107mm) is chosen to account for
the differing taper engagement.

well, that's what the shimano bb was on the track bike i was trying to
fix had and chain line was about 7mm off, primarily because taper was
such a bad fit. and that's an issue on a track bike. of all the
different shimano bb's i've measured, the different spindle length
affects the non-drive side only, not the drive side, so there's no chain
line advantage with the 107 vs the 110 or 113.

the superbe pro is a truly great crank so i'm not sure why you'd want to
even think of risking ruining such a fine & irreplacable component by
having it working loose & damaging the taper.

Quoted message said:

The third option (Chorus 102mm with a spacer) is my favourite for its very
low Q, at the expense of a little asymmetry. Chainline is fine, and the
taper is - of course - the same as the AC-H.

James Thomson

why buy an over-short bb & then use a spacer? the veloce bb [same as
the centaur] has /real/ buttery bearings - so no quality issues there.
and i'd be really surprised is you'd get away with the 102. the 111 has
minimal clearance between the crank root & the bb shell as it is. in
addition, this crank already has very low bb/pedal eye relative
displacement, so q's not much of an issue.

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

There is no length problem if the length (107mm) is chosen
to account for the differing taper engagement.

Quoted message said:

well, that's what the shimano bb was on the track bike i was
trying to fix had and chain line was about 7mm off, primarily
because taper was such a bad fit. and that's an issue on a
track bike.

The taper issue accounts for roughly 2mm of chainline discrepancy. The
remainder of your error must have come from another source.

Quoted message said:

of all the different shimano bb's i've measured, the different spindle
length affects the non-drive side only, not the drive side, so there's no
chain line advantage with the 107 vs the 110 or 113.

I don't have a 110 available to measure, but that's not true of the 113.

Quoted message said:

the superbe pro is a truly great crank

I agree - it's a jewel.

Quoted message said:

so i'm not sure why you'd want to even think of risking ruining
such a fine & irreplacable component by having it working
loose & damaging the taper.

First, it's not irreplaceable. There's still a considerable amount of old
stock in the pipeline (especially in 172.5, the length I normally use) and
I have two complete sets squirreled away.

I bought my first Superbe Pro chainset NOS through the local classified ads
paper, and kept it in reserve for a racing bike I was planning to build. An
accident with a car obliged me to revise my plans and press it into service
sooner than expected, and I ended up having to build a commuting bike from
parts on a Sunday afternoon in order to get to work for my shift that
evening. I found myself without a suitable bottom bracket, so I took the
cranks to the only local bike shop that was open on a Sunday afternoon to
buy a suitable BB. They only had Shimano bottom brackets in stock, and told
me that a 115mm axle was the best choice.

I quickly discovered I'd been misinformed. The axle was far too long, and
it was obvious that the taper engagement was less than perfect.
Nevertheless, I needed to get to work, the shop had shut for the day, and I
was obliged to use the parts I had. The next day I pulled the cranks and
bottom bracket, and made some measurements to determine the best
replacement. I had no internet access, and no great faith in the advice of
any of my local bike shops. I therefore decided to stay with the Shimano
taper, and calculated that a 107mm axle would be the best length to use.

Many years and many thousands of miles later, the cranks are fine. The
taper engagement may not be perfect, but I wouldn't have any qualms about
using this setup again if it were necessary. If I feared ruining the
cranks, I would change the bottom bracket. I'll be sure to post if I ever
do.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The third option (Chorus 102mm with a spacer) is my favourite for
its very low Q, at the expense of a little asymmetry. Chainline is
fine, and the taper is - of course - the same as the AC-H.

Quoted message said:

why buy an over-short bb & then use a spacer?

"for its very low Q"

In fact, I had the Chorus BB already, bought for use with a record chainset
which I later sold.

I like low-Q cranks. This combination gives a very low Q, and the chainline
is fine. The slight asymmetry doesn't bother me.

Quoted message said:

the veloce bb [same as the centaur]

The dimensions were the same, but the Veloce group came with the AC-S
(solid-spindled) unit. I note that Centaur now has a new BB.

Quoted message said:

has /real/ buttery bearings - so no quality issues there.

I have no criticisms of the AC-S, and it's very inexpensive.

Quoted message said:

and i'd be really surprised is you'd get away with the 102. the 111 has
minimal clearance between the crank root & the bb shell as it is.

If you had the parts in front of you, there would be no surprise. There's
plenty of clearance - in the 3 - 5 millimetre range. The AC-H and AC-S have
a thick, flat flange face to both cups, while the Chorus and Record models
are recessed.

Some frames might have a clearance issue between the end of the crank and
the left chainstay. Mine doesn't.

Quoted message said:

in addition, this crank already has very low bb/pedal eye
relative displacement, so q's not much of an issue.

For me, less is more. I've never found a combination I felt was too narrow.
I think calling this combination "my favourite" should have conveyed that
this was a personal preference - but you don't seem to be reading
particularly carefully.

James Thomson

For an answer to this very long post. the last gen Superbe Pro needs a 110mm,
Campagnolo taper BB. The Centaur and on down work great. 102mm, Record and
Chorus are not the right choice.

Also the 'q factor' of all Campagnolo double cranks is the same regardless of
BB length.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

(Qui si parla Campagnolo ) said:

For an answer to this very long post. the last gen Superbe Pro needs
a 110mm, Campagnolo taper BB. The Centaur and on down work
great. 102mm, Record and Chorus are not the right choice.

Also the 'q factor' of all Campagnolo double cranks is the same
regardless of BB length.

All of mine have been symmetrical, with 140 mm from the outside of the
cranks. Just about perfect IMHO- at least my knees really like this.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

For an answer to this very long post. the last gen Superbe Pro needs a
110mm,
Campagnolo taper BB. The Centaur and on down work great. 102mm, Record and
Chorus are not the right choice.

Also the 'q factor' of all Campagnolo double cranks is the same regardless
of
BB length.

Does anyone know what is the Q factor of Campy cranks? Q factor being the
distance between the pedals at the *outside* of the cranks.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

For an answer to this very long post.

I've seen longer (and I'm not about to ask you to become my editor) - but
there wasn't a question in my post. Not a single one.

Quoted message said:

the last gen Superbe Pro needs a 110mm, Campagnolo taper BB.
The Centaur and on down work great.

That very answer, to the original question, has been given more than once
already, within the usual margin of error.

Quoted message said:

102mm, Record and Chorus are not the right choice.

The right choice is a Suntour Superbe Pro bottom bracket. Like the other
alternatives, of which the Chorus most certainly is one, that option has
pros (it's the right choice) and cons (it's hard to find, expensive, or
both).

Quoted message said:

Also the 'q factor' of all Campagnolo double cranks is the same
regardless of BB length.

That isn't true (for example, the Q of a Veloce double with a 115.5mm
bottom bracket is 4mm greater than with a 111mm bottom bracket), and
neither is it relevant.

James Thomson

Many thanks folks.. I seemed to recall the spec being ISO taper and
about 110 spindle length. A hand fit of varous spindles seemed to
confirm the ISO. I have the AC-H campy 111mm BB, so it's good to
go......JP

Quoted message said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

For an answer to this very long post. the last gen Superbe Pro needs a
110mm,
Campagnolo taper BB. The Centaur and on down work great. 102mm, Record and
Chorus are not the right choice.
Also the 'q factor' of all Campagnolo double cranks is the same regardless
of BB length.

bfd said:

Does anyone know what is the Q factor of Campy cranks? Q factor being the
distance between the pedals at the *outside* of the cranks.

143mm

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Also the 'q factor' of all Campagnolo double cranks is the same
regardless of BB length.

James Thomson said:

That isn't true (for example, the Q of a Veloce double with a 115.5mm
bottom bracket is 4mm greater than with a 111mm bottom bracket), and
neither is it relevant.

I believe Peter meant that a standard chainline Record,
Chorus, Record Triple, Centaur, etc etc all come out to
143mm (alternate chainline excepted, of course).

Peter was probably addressing the frequent LBS conversation
about Q. Although Rec/Chr BB is 102, Rec/Chr triple BB is
asymmetric 111, Cen/Vel double and triple BB a symmetric
111, the Q is the same if you match Campagnolo's recommended
cranks and spindles. Some riders don't readily grasp that
the Q doesn't change.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

I believe Peter

Quoted message said:

Peter was probably

Wouldn't it be simpler to let Peter be his own interpreter?

James Thomson

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

I believe Peter
Peter was probably

James Thomson said:

Wouldn't it be simpler to let Peter be his own interpreter?

Yes it would.
Those are also my own opinions, possibly shared with Peter.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

Those are also my own opinions, possibly shared with Peter.

In that case:

Quoted message said:

a standard chainline Record, Chorus, Record Triple,
Centaur, etc etc all come out to 143mm (alternate
chainline excepted, of course).

The issue under discussion involved the same cranks with axles of different
lengths, so while the above may be true it's still not relevant.

James Thomson