Sustrans

"Peter Main" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sustrans has a lot to answer for. I am sure many of the people in Sustrans are well meaning and
hard working but the organisation seems to have developed a momentum of it's own driven from the
top. This momentum is

based

Quoted message said:

on a 'jobs worth' attitude of preserving the organisation and the jobs

that

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it contains.

Ditto every single transport pressure group. Which is why its so damned difficult to get from A to B
in Britain :-(

Quoted message said:

In his world all new track are perfectly constructed, so there is no need to address any problems.

In my world, just down the road from me, NCN route 13 has sections of narrow footpath with pictures
of bikes painted on them, so the narrow footpath is now a narrow shared path - and come complete
with bollards in the middle of them! Right next to a perfectly good wide road. Other bits include
*very narrow* country lane with grass growing up the middle of the single track road, potholes and
broken away road edge.

Cheers, helen s

~~~~~~~~~~
This is sent from a redundant email Mail sent to it is dumped My correct one can be gleaned from
h$**$*$el$**e$n$**$d$**$o$*$t**$$s$**$im$mo$ns*@a$**o$l.c$$*o$*m*$ by getting rid of the
overdependence on money and fame
~~~~~~~~~~

In my opinion this is the biggest problem with cycle paths... they are routed next to perfectly good
roads that cyclists are entitled to use but the mere provision of these paths is liable to create a
form of apartheid where cyclist are eventually forced off the roads and onto the cycle paths.

Regards, Neil

"wafflyDIRTYcatLITTERhcsBOX" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In his world all new track are perfectly constructed, so there is no need to address any
problems.

In my world, just down the road from me, NCN route 13 has sections of

narrow

Quoted message said:

footpath with pictures of bikes painted on them, so the narrow footpath is

now

Quoted message said:

a narrow shared path - and come complete with bollards in the middle of

them!

Quoted message said:

Right next to a perfectly good wide road. Other bits include *very narrow* country lane with grass
growing up the middle of the single track road, potholes and broken away road edge.

Cheers, helen s

~~~~~~~~~~
This is sent from a redundant email Mail sent to it is dumped My correct one can be gleaned from
h$**$*$el$**e$n$**$d$**$o$*$t**$$s$**$im$mo$ns*@a$**o$l.c$$*o$*m*$ by getting rid of the
overdependence on money and fame
~~~~~~~~~~

"wafflyDIRTYcatLITTERhcsBOX" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

In my world, just down the road from me, NCN route 13 has sections of

narrow

Quoted message said:

footpath with pictures of bikes painted on them, so the narrow footpath is

now

Quoted message said:

a narrow shared path - and come complete with bollards in the middle of

them!

Quoted message said:

Right next to a perfectly good wide road. Other bits include *very narrow* country lane with grass
growing up the middle of the single track road, potholes and broken away road edge.

The bits of cyclepath that have been popping up on between Bristol, Avonmouth and the Severn Bridge
over the last few years (NCN route 4 or 41 I think) are excellent and have made my journey far more
pleasurable.

Neil Hardman said:

In my opinion this is the biggest problem with cycle paths... they are routed next to
perfectly good roads that cyclists are entitled to use but the mere provision of these paths
is liable to create a form of apartheid where cyclist are eventually forced off the roads and
onto the cycle paths.

Albeit gradually, this is definitely something I can see happening over here.....depressingly.

Garry

Quoted message said:

Regards, Neil

"wafflyDIRTYcatLITTERhcsBOX" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In his world all new track are perfectly constructed, so there is no need to address any
problems.

In my world, just down the road from me, NCN route 13 has sections of

narrow

Quoted message said:

footpath with pictures of bikes painted on them, so the narrow footpath is

now

Quoted message said:

a narrow shared path - and come complete with bollards in the middle of

them!

Quoted message said:

Right next to a perfectly good wide road. Other bits include *very narrow* country lane with
grass growing up the middle of the single track road, potholes and broken away road edge.

Cheers, helen s

~~~~~~~~~~
This is sent from a redundant email Mail sent to it is dumped My correct one can be gleaned from
h$**$*$el$**e$n$**$d$**$o$*$t**$$s$**$im$mo$ns*@a$**o$l.c$$*o$*m*$ by getting rid of the
overdependence on money and fame
~~~~~~~~~~

"Neil Hardman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In my opinion this is the biggest problem with cycle paths... they are routed next to perfectly
good roads that cyclists are entitled to use but the mere provision of these paths is liable to
create a form of apartheid where cyclist are eventually forced off the roads and onto the cycle

paths.

Quoted message said:

Regards, Neil

Would that really be a problem if cycle paths were well designed and maintained? I mean you don't
hear many people complaining that motorways create a form of apartheid! :-)

"Nathaniel Porter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Would that really be a problem if cycle paths were well designed and maintained? I mean you don't
hear many people complaining that motorways create a form of apartheid! :-)

True -- but then 'everyone' seems too presume that a driver can take either the motorway or a
collection of B roads to get from A to B. Once there is a cycle track motorists seem to imagine that
all cyclists should take the equivalent of the collection of B roads meandering from A to B rather
than the direct route that they want to have sole use of.

T

That's true, but Motorways are specifically legislated and designed for motor traffic and no-one is
demanding that cars only use motorways. It seems to me that cycle paths are the thin end of the
wedge in that they engender a change in the attitude of the motorist such that they expect cyclists
to use cycle paths if provided. I for one, don't want to because of the arguments previously well
trodden in this NG, i.e. dog filth, glass, having to stop at far too many junctions etc.

Regards, Neil

"Nathaniel Porter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Neil Hardman" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In my opinion this is the biggest problem with cycle paths... they are routed next to perfectly
good roads that cyclists are entitled to use

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the mere provision of these paths is liable to create a form of

apartheid

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

where cyclist are eventually forced off the roads and onto the cycle

paths.

Quoted message said:

Regards, Neil

Would that really be a problem if cycle paths were well designed and maintained? I mean you don't
hear many people complaining that motorways create a form of apartheid! :-)

"Andy P" <[email hidden]> writed in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"wafflyDIRTYcatLITTERhcsBOX" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

In my world, just down the road from me, NCN route 13 has sections of

narrow

Quoted message said:

footpath with pictures of bikes painted on them, so the narrow footpath is

now

Quoted message said:

a narrow shared path - and come complete with bollards in the middle of

them!

Quoted message said:

Right next to a perfectly good wide road. Other bits include *very narrow* country lane with
grass growing up the middle of the single track road, potholes and broken away road edge.

The bits of cyclepath that have been popping up on between Bristol, Avonmouth and the Severn
Bridge over the last few years (NCN route 4 or 41 I think) are excellent and have made my journey
far more pleasurable.

I think that this is what the OP what saying when he said that Sistrans were 'well meaning' - some
of the Sustrans routes are excellent (eg Route 6 between Blaby & leicester City Centre, and again
between Market Harborough and the edge of Northampton) but other parts (eg everywhere where there
are shared use pavements at the side of a perfectly good road) are an excuse for 'facilities'.
Without Sustrans I doubt the network of alternative routes created from disused rail lines would
exist, but equally Sustrans are furthering (or actively promoting) the apartheid culture and that's
why I won't give them my money. Furthermore! All their literature promotes 'traffic free' routes -
as a cyclist *I am Traffic*!

Rant Over

Michael Leicester

"wafflyDIRTYcatLITTERhcsBOX" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In his world all new track are perfectly constructed, so there is no need to address any
problems.

In my world, just down the road from me,

<snip> Other bits include *very narrow*

Quoted message said:

country lane with grass growing up the middle of the single track road, potholes and broken away
road edge.

Cheers, helen s

Very much easier to maintain than a nice shiny new bit of tarmac ;-)

Dave.

"Nathaniel Porter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Neil Hardman" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In my opinion this is the biggest problem with cycle paths... they are routed next to perfectly
good roads that cyclists are entitled to use

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the mere provision of these paths is liable to create a form of

apartheid

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

where cyclist are eventually forced off the roads and onto the cycle

paths.

Quoted message said:

Regards, Neil

Would that really be a problem if cycle paths were well designed and maintained? I mean you don't
hear many people complaining that motorways create a form of apartheid! :-)

Yes but have you ever tried getting from one side of a field / whatever to the other if there's a
motorway going straight through the middle without a convenient bridge for miles ? More succesful
apartheid than was ever achieved in South Africa ;-) Dave. (...who is nevertheless extremely
grateful for motorways as they provide for quicker transport across this beautiful country of ours,
resulting in me seeing more of it than I ever would have without them. ;-)

"Mike Gayler" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Without Sustrans I doubt the network of alternative routes created from disused rail lines would
exist, but equally Sustrans are furthering (or actively promoting) the apartheid culture and
that's why I won't give them my money. Furthermore! All their literature promotes 'traffic free'
routes - as a cyclist *I am Traffic*!

Why all these negative "apartheid" views? As I cyclist I see myself as very lucky in the choices I
have. On my daily commute to work I can use the road, various bits of shared use cycle path, go
through a park and even make use of a dockside path which technically isn't a right of way to
anyone. On the other routes I use regularly to get to various places, I use a mix of road,
cyclepath, forestry tracks and rough bridleways depending on the weather and how quick I want to
get there.

Andy P said:

Why all these negative "apartheid" views? As I cyclist I see myself as very lucky in the
choices I have.

Because the bicycle apartheid is forcing us gradually off the roads.

--
Dave...

I have recently tried out a few hundred miles of Sustrans routes. Generally I ignore the narrow
footways and use the adjacent road, but the funny ways through the cities are great fun, and open up
urban places, where I would not normally consider going to on a bike.

The thing that really rats me off about cycleways is th all too frequent "Cyclists Dismount" signs.
If I want to walk I'd leave my bike behind.

The worse one, was Wychnor, Staffs. There is a good well surfaced track. Halfway along this track
crosses a parish boundary and due to the quirks of the definitive map swiches from BW to footpath.
In true jobsworth fashion, there is the dreaded blue sign. As if anyone would.

Richard Webb

This attack on Sustrans is really unwarranted. I’m a Sustrans supporter, and I’m proud of the work that Sustrans has done to raise the profile of cycling in the UK, and to provide facilities for novice cyclists. For a small, underfunded charity they do an amazing amount of good work.

Rather than attacking Sustrans, the people we should be attacking are the government, and the Scottish Executive in Scotland for not taking cycling seriously. While in Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands, government cycling policy is clear, well-defined and well-funded, in the UK we have the government giving lottery cash to a charity, and they consider that to be ‘job done’.

So come on, Peter – direct your fire where it’s warranted, not at the organisation that is actually making a difference for cyclists in the UK!

Ian

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Peter Main
Sustrans has a lot to answer for. I am sure many of the people in Sustrans are well meaning and hard
working but the organisation seems to have developed a momentum of it's own driven from the top.
This momentum is based on a 'jobs worth' attitude of preserving the organisation and the jobs that
it contains. There is little or no interest in listening to the people out in the field or on the
ground. In fact these people are considered to be a nuisance if they choose to do any more than
quietly clear rubbish and clear path obstructions. When I started rocking the boat a bit (with the
best intentions) I had phone calls from Bristol and N.England more or less telling me to keep quiet
as well as a letter from Grimshaw himself. He seems to view the world through rose tinted glasses. A
world where no litter is dropped, no lorries tip rubbish on the track and NO ONE throws glass
bottles out of car windows that smash on the track. In his world all new track are perfectly
constructed, so there is no need to address any problems.

As I said, I wasted many hours writing reports and contacting relevant authorities after
inspections. All my efforts were completely ignored and there is nothing I as an individual can do
about a lorry load of builders waste. So..... I resign.

---
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"Ian_Sly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Main said:

Sustrans has a lot to answer for. I am sure many of the people in Sustrans are well meaning
and hard working but the organisation seems

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have developed a momentum of it's own driven from the top. This

momentum

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is based on a 'jobs worth' attitude of preserving the organisation and the jobs that it
contains. There is little or no interest in listening to the people out in the field or on the
ground. In fact these people are considered to be a nuisance if they choose to do any more
than quietly clear rubbish and clear path obstructions. When I started rocking the boat a bit
(with the best intentions) I had phone calls

from

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bristol and N.England more or less telling me to keep quiet as well as

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

letter from Grimshaw himself. He seems to view the world through rose tinted glasses. A world
where no litter is dropped, no lorries tip rubbish on the track and NO ONE throws glass
bottles out of car

windows

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that smash on the track. In his world all new track are perfectly constructed, so there is no
need to address any problems. As I said, I wasted many hours writing reports and contacting
relevant authorities after inspections. All my efforts were completely ignored and there is
nothing I as an individual can do about a lorry load of builders waste. So..... I resign.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus

system

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(http://www.grisoft.com" rel="ugc nofollow noopener">grisoft.comwww.grisoft.comOpen ↗). Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 -
Release Date: 10/06/03

This attack on Sustrans is really unwarranted. I'm a Sustrans supporter, and I'm proud of the work
that Sustrans has done to raise the profile of cycling in the UK, and to provide facilities for
novice cyclists. For a small, underfunded charity they do an amazing amount of good work.

Rather than attacking Sustrans, the people we should be attacking are the government, and the
Scottish Executive in Scotland for not taking cycling seriously. While in Germany, Denmark and the
Netherlands, government cycling policy is clear, well-defined and well-funded, in the UK we have
the government giving lottery cash to a charity, and they consider that to be 'job done'.

So come on, Peter - direct your fire where it's warranted, not at the organisation that is
actually making a difference for cyclists in the UK!

Ian

--

Quoted message said:

--------------------------<

Posted via cyclingforums.com cyclingforums.comcyclingforums.comOpen ↗

The Scottish Executive gave Sustrans £1.5 million last year to bring cycle routers up to a good
standard. And there is more to come for cycling...

RJ Webb said:

I have recently tried out a few hundred miles of Sustrans routes. Generally I ignore the narrow
footways and use the adjacent road, but the funny ways through the cities are great fun, and open
up urban places, where I would not normally consider going to on a bike.

Done part of the North Sea route last year (from Harwich to Newcastle) and didn't like the cities
stretches one bit! Ended up just riding in and out of city centres along the main roads; better than
running the Sustrans obstacle course! I must admit that large parts of the route were along
pleasantly empty and scenic roads, and the railway parts were esp. nice (but often impassable when
wet), but it would seem that Sustrans thinks all cyclists have full suspended MTBs, carry no
luggage, and are scared stiff of traffic...

Quoted message said:

The thing that really rats me off about cycleways is th all too frequent "Cyclists Dismount" signs.
If I want to walk I'd leave my bike behind.

Over here (NL) such signs are only there to protect road workers from liability, and are only
"advisory". Does the same hold true in Blighty?

£1.5m is a drop in the ocean compared to the £500m that the Executive is pouring into a 5-mile motorway in Glasgow which the locals don't want and which will only alleviate congestion for a couple of years at most.

If the Executive is so keen on cycling, why don't they get their act together and start maintaining the routes we've already got? Unless I've got it wrong, the Executive is responsible for the route over Drumochter which Peter Main was originally complaining about?

Ian

---

Originally posted by Geoff Pearson:

The Scottish Executive gave Sustrans £1.5 million last year to bring cycle routers up to a good
standard. And there is more to come for cycling...

Ian_Sly <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

£1.5m is a drop in the ocean compared to the £500m that the Executive is pouring into a 5-mile
motorway in Glasgow which the locals don't want and which will only alleviate congestion for a
couple of years at most. The M74 extension should in fact take through traffic off other roads

making them more pleasant to cycle on. As does the M8 motorway where it runs near to Edinburgh Road
in Glasgow. The M8 was built about 30 years ago and is still not overloaded at that point.
Edinburgh Rd is a 6 lane dual carriageway which was superceded by the M8 and now carriies only
light local traffic. Compare Edinburgh Rd to Maryhill Rd or gt Western Rd Glasgow which don,t have
a nearby motorway taking traffic away. Both roads have queued traffic much of the day. The same
argument goes for rural motorways as well. Cycle the old A74. A dual carriageway Rd superceded by
the M74 from Gretna to Hamilton. Most of the way from the border the old A74 carries a car a minute
or less. Great Rd to cycle. Made that way by the Motorway taking traffic away.With regads to te
cost £500m looks cheap compared to the £800m being talked about for upgrading one train station -
Waverley in Edinburgh. Don,t get me wrong, I,m a cyclist and I,m in favour of certain cycle lanes,
Drumochter being a good example. Not enough is spent on them. But motorways benefit cyclists by
takling traffic away .