swim time

"Kevin Draper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

hi I'm doing my first tri (olympic distance) in four weeks time. I can consistently manage a swim
time for the 1.5K of around 29mins in the

pool -

Quoted message said:

I've had one swim in open water (which was a bit of an eye opener) and

will

Quoted message said:

be doing more in the run up to the tri.

I reckon I could push a bit harder on the swim and that I might need to in open water to even
manage a time of around 35 mins. Am I taking the swim

too

Quoted message said:

easy? I feel very comfortable at that "29min in the pool" pace but I'm

aware

Quoted message said:

of the need to leave plenty in 'the tank' for the bike / run sections.

My reckoning is if I push hard in the swim i might take 4 or 5 mins off my time but am I setting
myself up to lose more than that in the bike / run?

At

Quoted message said:

the moment my times on the various sections on their own are swim 29mins, bike 1hr 30mins, run
42mins. Does my swim time seem excessively slow in comparison to the others?

cheers,

Kev

Hi Kev,

Some people take a lot longer than 29 mins to complete a 1500 open water swim, so it's impossible to
say if you're taking it too easy. However, I would say (especially if your going to be using a wet
suit) with all the people around and the drafting effect you'll probably do a 29 in the race.

I wouldn't suggest pushing the swim too hard as whatever the outcome you won't be challanging the
top places and may take a lot of energy away from your bike and run.

It's far easier to push harder on the bike as you're going through air not water and it's a longer
part of the triathlon.

It's best to enjoy your first race.

Hope this helps & Good Luck.

Wayne
--
DrClean www.DrClean.co.uk The Best Fabric Cleaning Resource on the Web

Kevin,

It sounds to me like you are in much better shape then I was when I did my first Tri. Open water is
completely different. If the weather is bad you can get waves rolling against you which you really
can't practice for. You can't see the bottom of the pool, which also provides a feeling of comfort.
As a friend of mine put it " I use to swim in the ocean until I bought a mask and saw what was
swimming underneath me." Get out of the pool as much as you can.

"Kevin Draper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

hi I'm doing my first tri (olympic distance) in four weeks time. I can consistently manage a swim
time for the 1.5K of around 29mins in the

pool -

Quoted message said:

I've had one swim in open water (which was a bit of an eye opener) and

will

Quoted message said:

be doing more in the run up to the tri.

I reckon I could push a bit harder on the swim and that I might need to in open water to even
manage a time of around 35 mins. Am I taking the swim

too

Quoted message said:

easy? I feel very comfortable at that "29min in the pool" pace but I'm

aware

Quoted message said:

of the need to leave plenty in 'the tank' for the bike / run sections.

My reckoning is if I push hard in the swim i might take 4 or 5 mins off my time but am I setting
myself up to lose more than that in the bike / run?

At

Quoted message said:

the moment my times on the various sections on their own are swim 29mins, bike 1hr 30mins, run
42mins. Does my swim time seem excessively slow in comparison to the others?

cheers,

Kev

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- newsfeeds.comnewsfeeds.comOpen ↗ - The #1
Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Dude your swim time seems fine. I was really happy with my first 1.5K swim under 30 mins last week
at the Columbia tri, but I'm not a super swimmer. You definately want to save something for the bike
and run. Don't leave it all in the water then bonk. The people at Total Immersion teach you to use
technique to save energy not necessarily swim time. There will definitely be some faster swimmers
than you, but don't sweat it. If you can hammer a 42 min 10K you'll be passing them all back on the
run. Also if you wear a wetsuit in the swim in open water you'll go faster. As well there's not time
wasted turning around every 25 or 50 yards depending on your pool.

Good luck and taper well.

Walt S.

--
__ o 0 /\o__ -\<, //\/ ^^^^^^^ ( ) / ( ) \/\ ..../

"Kevin Draper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

hi I'm doing my first tri (olympic distance) in four weeks time. I can consistently manage a swim
time for the 1.5K of around 29mins in the

pool -

Quoted message said:

I've had one swim in open water (which was a bit of an eye opener) and

will

Quoted message said:

be doing more in the run up to the tri.

I reckon I could push a bit harder on the swim and that I might need to in open water to even
manage a time of around 35 mins. Am I taking the swim

too

Quoted message said:

easy? I feel very comfortable at that "29min in the pool" pace but I'm

aware

Quoted message said:

of the need to leave plenty in 'the tank' for the bike / run sections.

My reckoning is if I push hard in the swim i might take 4 or 5 mins off my time but am I setting
myself up to lose more than that in the bike / run?

At

Quoted message said:

the moment my times on the various sections on their own are swim 29mins, bike 1hr 30mins, run
42mins. Does my swim time seem excessively slow in comparison to the others?

cheers,

Kev

Quoted message said:

Hi Kev,

Some people take a lot longer than 29 mins to complete a 1500 open water swim, so it's impossible
to say if you're taking it too easy. However, I would say (especially if your going to be using a
wet suit) with all the people around and the drafting effect you'll probably do a 29 in the race.

That must be an awfully calm lake that you swim in! Even with a drafting effect, I wouldn't expect
to match the pool time. For one, depending on the body of water and the wind\weather conditions, you
could be facing very choppy water or even big swells. Second, that 1500k is as the crow flies - and
as we all know, there are no lane lines in the lake. These can often turn into a zig-zag affair,
which can really add up the extra distance (and with it, time). Lastly, open water is non-stop,
whereas in a pool you get to push off and catch your breath a bit. It's a big difference - it's much
more fatiguing that a pool.

In short, in my neck of the woods, where the wind tends to be up a lot of the time, adding 50% to
your pool time is pretty standard.

"Kevin Draper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

hi I'm doing my first tri (olympic distance) in four weeks time. I can consistently manage a swim
time for the 1.5K of around 29mins in the pool - I've had one swim in open water (which was a bit
of an eye opener) and will be doing more in the run up to the tri.

I reckon I could push a bit harder on the swim and that I might need to in open water to even
manage a time of around 35 mins. Am I taking the swim too easy? I feel very comfortable at that
"29min in the pool" pace but I'm aware of the need to leave plenty in 'the tank' for the bike /
run sections.

My reckoning is if I push hard in the swim i might take 4 or 5 mins off my time but am I setting
myself up to lose more than that in the bike / run? At the moment my times on the various sections
on their own are swim 29mins, bike 1hr 30mins, run 42mins. Does my swim time seem excessively slow
in comparison to the others?

cheers,

Kev

Looking at the times in a recent olympic distance tri, anything under 30 min for 1500m was well
above average. Most swimmers were in the low 30's. Of course, type of water body and wind conditions
will affect this - oceans tend to be harder, as is choppier water. But, I'd bet that a 29 min time
would be quite respectable.

As for the how question, on a distance swim (like 1500m), focus on efficiency. Long, strong strokes
will not only conserve energy for the other 2 legs, but often get you there faster. All too often
when people try to speed up, they increase turnover at the expense of efficiency. Many people will
find that there is a but a small difference between the speed that they can do comfortably and one
that they have to go all out at. You might be able to average 1:45 100s, but once you pick up the
pace to 1:40, your heart rate skyrockets and while you can make the pace, you are trashed
afterwards. Ideally, you want to find the first point - where you are pushing, yet still able to
sustain the pace without expending undue energy. My guess is that if by pushing you can take 5 mins
off your swim time (but not have much left in the tank afterwards), you should be able to pick up
the pace, say 3 min faster, and still have a lot left over.

How long do you have before your race? What are you doing now in your swim workouts?

[email hidden] (topdog) wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hi Kev,

Some people take a lot longer than 29 mins to complete a 1500 open water swim, so it's impossible
to say if you're taking it too easy. However, I would say (especially if your going to be using a
wet suit) with all the people around and the drafting effect you'll probably do a 29 in the race.

That must be an awfully calm lake that you swim in! Even with a drafting effect, I wouldn't expect
to match the pool time. For one, depending on the body of water and the wind\weather conditions,
you could be facing very choppy water or even big swells. Second, that 1500k is as the crow flies
- and as we all know, there are no lane lines in the lake. These can often turn into a zig-zag
affair, which can really add up the extra distance (and with it, time). Lastly, open water is
non-stop, whereas in a pool you get to push off and catch your breath a bit. It's a big difference
- it's much more fatiguing that a pool.

Topdog

If you are a good swimmer (and with a name like yours you probably are (unless you do doggy
paddle)), then perhaps what you say is true. But if you are a poor swimmer - i.e. poor technique -
then maybe not. I'm also in the 30min 1500m category so am a relatively poor swimmer. (Like the
original poster).

I swim almost all my o/w swims in the sea - twice a week, 8 month a year, in all sea conditions and
I find that with my wetsuit providing the bouyancy (keeping the trailing legs up!) I am about 5 mins
faster than in the pool. Without the suit I'm 5 mins slower - so YES! my wetsuit is worth 10 minutes
in a race.

Non-stop allows my to get into a rythmn (sp?), I don't need to catch a breath, so much less
fatiguing than in the pool.

Zig-zag - why? A little practice at looking where you are going and you can eliminate that - and it
is much easier than trying to improve your swim technique. (You can't do much about fellow
competitors zz'ing in front of you tho!)

Another word on technique - the good swimmers suffer much more in rough conditions. In flat water,
I'm the slowest or next to slowest in my group, but give me some waves and all the guys and girls
with flash styles slow down much more than me with my plug-plug swim style.

Cheers

Jeff

"topdog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Kevin Draper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hi I'm doing my first tri (olympic distance) in four weeks time. I can consistently manage a
swim time for the 1.5K of around 29mins in the

pool -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've had one swim in open water (which was a bit of an eye opener) and

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be doing more in the run up to the tri.

I reckon I could push a bit harder on the swim and that I might need to

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

open water to even manage a time of around 35 mins. Am I taking the swim

too

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

easy? I feel very comfortable at that "29min in the pool" pace but I'm

aware

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the need to leave plenty in 'the tank' for the bike / run sections.

My reckoning is if I push hard in the swim i might take 4 or 5 mins off

my

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

time but am I setting myself up to lose more than that in the bike /

run? At

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the moment my times on the various sections on their own are swim

29mins,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bike 1hr 30mins, run 42mins. Does my swim time seem excessively slow in comparison to the
others?

cheers,

Kev

Looking at the times in a recent olympic distance tri, anything under 30 min for 1500m was well
above average. Most swimmers were in the low 30's. Of course, type of water body and wind
conditions will affect this - oceans tend to be harder, as is choppier water. But, I'd bet that a
29 min time would be quite respectable.

I agree with this one. In my last open water tri I came out in 26 mins after going way off course
(about 100 mtrs through poor spotting) and was among the first 10% out. Good age group triathletes
were coming in after me.

However, I have to say that a slow long distance swim at the pool would be a similar time, and I
would imagine that this poster is taking it quite easy on and not going too hard in the pool.

Wayne
--
DrClean www.DrClean.co.uk The Best Fabric Cleaning Resource on the Web

Quoted message said:

If you are a good swimmer (and with a name like yours you probably are (unless you do doggy
paddle)), then perhaps what you say is true. But if you are a poor swimmer - i.e. poor technique -
then maybe not. I'm also in the 30min 1500m category so am a relatively poor swimmer. (Like the
original poster).

Actually, the name came from a previous job (I was director of a humane society). IMHO, a 29 min
1500 is a fairly respectable time. I could be wrong, but it seemed like the original poster was a
decent swimmer, though possibly not as well trained in that leg as with the run\bike (in other
words, like most people! <G>😉 Admittedly I'm not a tri coach - my experience has been in pool
training, not open water - but it would seem that poor technique would be even more of a problem
when one adds in the current\waves\lack of lane lines. But you're right - maybe not. Plus,
everything depends on the individual. What works for one person doesn't always work for everyone.

Quoted message said:

I swim almost all my o/w swims in the sea - twice a week, 8 month a year, in all sea conditions
and I find that with my wetsuit providing the bouyancy (keeping the trailing legs up!) I am about
5 mins faster than in the pool. Without the suit I'm 5 mins slower - so YES! my wetsuit is worth
10 minutes in a race.

You must be from Florida\SoCal? I can see your point on the wetsuit. It gives you the ability to
glide like a skinsuit, and the bouyancy probably would help a lot. I've never been in an ocean swim
- I'm sure it's much different than even a choppy lake. Out of curiousity, to you keep it on during
the run, and if not, isn't that a real pain to change out of?

Quoted message said:

Non-stop allows my to get into a rythmn (sp?), I don't need to catch a breath, so much less
fatiguing than in the pool.

The key may be that you are used to open water, and from what you say, maybe much moreso than the
pool. That's just the opposite of most people, where it's generally too cold to swim open water most
of the year (plus, most workouts are in the pool).

Quoted message said:

Zig-zag - why? A little practice at looking where you are going and you can eliminate that - and
it is much easier than trying to improve your swim technique. (You can't do much about fellow
competitors zz'ing in front of you tho!)

Most of the open water swims I've been in have seen most swimmers take a less-than-straight course.
No matter how good you are in open water navigation, you will still add at least SOME distance.
Plus, most people slow down a tad to get their bearings on occasion. If there's a current, it also
takes more energy to fight against that. IMHO, good technique is a real boon to navigation - if you
can swim straight, you can stay on line better. Most poor swimmers favor one side, which causes you
to go off-line. Breathing also can really affect this, and that's another thing that poor swimmers
usually don't do well.

Quoted message said:

Another word on technique - the good swimmers suffer much more in rough conditions. In flat water,
I'm the slowest or next to slowest in my group, but give me some waves and all the guys and girls
with flash styles slow down much more than me with my plug-plug swim style.

I've always been a proponent of a "plug-plug" style, in a pool or anywhere else. My guess is
that you have a fairly strong stroke no matter how untrained it may be. That will serve you well
for sure, where as a short, fast stroke will definitely suffer more in bad conditions. Anyways,
the point was that for most of us, it's hard to match our pool times in open water for a number
of reasons.

Good luck in your swims!

Quoted message said:

However, I have to say that a slow long distance swim at the pool would be a similar time, and I
would imagine that this poster is taking it quite easy on and not going too hard in the pool.

Wayne

Agreed - I was assuming 29 min as a relatively fast pool swim. While IN GENERAL it will take more
effort to swim in open water than the pool, on race day most people will naturally pick up the pace
a good bit, and I have no problems seeing them match a slow pool time.

Topdog

[email hidden] (topdog) wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Actually, the name came from a previous job (I was director of a humane society).

Good for you (said as person who shares a house with 8 cats, 1 dog, 1 mother-in-law and 1 wife - not
necessarily in that order!).

I agree with almost all you say - in particular ...

Quoted message said:

Plus, everything depends on the individual. What works for one person doesn't always work for
everyone.

Quoted message said:

I swim almost all my o/w swims in the sea - twice a week, 8 month a year, in all sea conditions
and I find that with my wetsuit providing the bouyancy (keeping the trailing legs up!) I am about
5 mins faster than in the pool. Without the suit I'm 5 mins slower - so YES! my wetsuit is worth
10 minutes in a race.

You must be from Florida\SoCal?

Whangaparaoa, New Zealand - It's wetsuit legal all year round here. Sep- Oct too cold for most
people and the same after Easter. Most racing is Nov-March. Our club has a midwinter race on 22 June
which will draw a few crazies - including me.

Quoted message said:

Out of curiousity, to you keep it on during the run, and if not, isn't that a real pain to
change out of?

Not really - strip it to the waist in the run to T1, 10 seconds to remove the bottom half, dressed
for biking underneath the suit.

Quoted message said:

The key may be that you are used to open water, and from what you say, maybe much moreso than the
pool. That's just the opposite of most people, where it's generally too cold to swim open water
most of the year (plus, most workouts are in the pool).

Definitely the key to openwater swimming is being relaxed in the environment. (We Kiwis have an
advantage with a very watersport friendly society.) You see people almost hyperventiating at the
thought swimming where you can't see a black line, sharing the water with ... big biteys. (Horrible
trick but it fixes most people. Talk about sharks and stuff before getting in the water and at any
stops during the session then later, swim up behind tham and grab them in a vice grip around the
ankle! They will probably [censored] themselves first time, but soon see the funny side and get to relax
(if they ever come back!)).

Quoted message said:

Most of the open water swims I've been in have seen most swimmers take a less-than-straight
course. No matter how good you are in open water navigation, you will still add at least SOME
distance. Plus, most people slow down a tad to get their bearings on occasion.

It is very easy to biuld a sighting stroke into your swim style. I use one-in-six in moderate to
rough conditions, one-in-eight or one-in-ten in flatter conditions.

Quoted message said:

If there's a current, it also takes more energy to fight against that.

Yes that's really true. My worst times have been in Rarotonga (Cook Islands) - the swim is in a
lagoon, near the exit to the sea. On the first leg against the current, the good swimmers clear out
and us slow pokes get plenty of time to study the reef fish. On the return leg - with the current -
we don't gain back the same amount - they're already on their bikes. Plus I don't get to wear my
precious Orca as the water is too warm,

Quoted message said:

Anyways, the point was that for most of us, it's hard to match our pool times in open water for a
number of reasons.

The point was well made. My point is that those reasons include practice and being happy in the open
water environment

Quoted message said:

Good luck in your swims!

Thanks - hope you have a good Northern Hemisphere season

Cheers

Jeff

"Kevin Draper" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

hi I'm doing my first tri (olympic distance) in four weeks time. I can consistently manage a swim
time for the 1.5K of around 29mins in the pool - I've had one swim in open water (which was a bit
of an eye opener) and will be doing more in the run up to the tri.

I reckon I could push a bit harder on the swim and that I might need to in open water to even
manage a time of around 35 mins. Am I taking the swim too easy? I feel very comfortable at that
"29min in the pool" pace but I'm aware of the need to leave plenty in 'the tank' for the bike /
run sections.

My reckoning is if I push hard in the swim i might take 4 or 5 mins off my time but am I setting
myself up to lose more than that in the bike / run? At the moment my times on the various sections
on their own are swim 29mins, bike 1hr 30mins, run 42mins. Does my swim time seem excessively slow
in comparison to the others?

cheers,

Kev

It's EXTREMELY dependent on conditions. Last year I set a PR in a local
3.6 mile open water swim of 1:49 in great conditions. Last weekend I had my worst time ever in this
race (3:19!) because of big swells and a strong running tide. I was swimming at about a 30 degree
angle to the course to stay next to the bouys! I wasn't expecting to beat or match the PR because
I was sick with a fever just two days before the race, but in good conditions I should've been
close to two hours.

Just swim at your pace and save some juice for the bke and run. You may be able to judge your time
based on others in the race afterwards if you know how you measure up agaist them in the pool.

Jeff Cook <j

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyways, the point was that for most of us, it's hard to match our pool times in open water for
a number of reasons.

The point was well made. My point is that those reasons include practice and being happy in the
open water environment

I think you are a great example of why most of us need to train more in open water. I mean, there's
no real reason WHY we should swim 50% slower there than in a pool, but far too many people do. A
little bit due to current et al, but not as much as is "normal". You seem to have adapted
wonderfully. Come up here and give us Texans a clinic, eh? ;-)

Incidently, your country is right at the top of my list for places to visit. I only wish airfare was
cheaper! (and flight times shorter!!)

hard to say wether you will go faster or slower, though I tend to go faster in a race setting than
pool setting (I am a ~23min 1.5k swimmer)

here are some things to consider:

1. drafting - if you get with a good group of people, this can save a lot of time/energy

2. swimming straight in open water is tough, expect the 1.5K to be more like
3.6K or so.

4. wetsuits typically make you faster (normally, the slower the swimmer, the more assistance a
wetsuit provides)

when I consider all these factors, my open water time will be faster than a fairly hard 1.5k in a
pool. That said, I probably push a little harder in a race situation as well!

-Rav

"Kevin Draper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

hi I'm doing my first tri (olympic distance) in four weeks time. I can consistently manage a swim
time for the 1.5K of around 29mins in the

pool -

Quoted message said:

I've had one swim in open water (which was a bit of an eye opener) and

will

Quoted message said:

be doing more in the run up to the tri.

I reckon I could push a bit harder on the swim and that I might need to in open water to even
manage a time of around 35 mins. Am I taking the swim

too

Quoted message said:

easy? I feel very comfortable at that "29min in the pool" pace but I'm

aware

Quoted message said:

of the need to leave plenty in 'the tank' for the bike / run sections.

My reckoning is if I push hard in the swim i might take 4 or 5 mins off my time but am I setting
myself up to lose more than that in the bike / run?

At

Quoted message said:

the moment my times on the various sections on their own are swim 29mins, bike 1hr 30mins, run
42mins. Does my swim time seem excessively slow in comparison to the others?

cheers,

Kev

"Kevin Draper" wrote

Quoted message said:

hi I'm doing my first tri (olympic distance) in four weeks time. I can consistently manage a swim
time for the 1.5K of around 29mins in the

pool -

Quoted message said:

My reckoning is if I push hard in the swim i might take 4 or 5 mins off my time

And don't forget that measuring the swim course is a fairly inexact science, even using GPS. Chances
are you won't be swimming exactly close to 1500m. My advice is to practice, practice, practice those
open water swims, and don't worry too much about your time for your first tri. The difference
between a good swim and a bad swim is only about 10 mins or so - insignificant over the course of a
couple of hours.