Swimming noob

Hello David.

First of all buoyancy is fine and everything, but really is
not important. Just so you know, most elite triathletes have
very poor buoyancy and they can swim circles around many. It
sounds to me that you have more of a fear of sinking. So you
sink...so what? It means nothing. You are probably working
much too hard in the water. You are not that old and should
work on swimming. You need to get a feel for the water and
how it acts when you position your body in different ways.
Get in the shallow end of the pool and push off the side and
shoot yourself towards the bottom slowly and then bend your
body by pushing your stomach down to arch your back and move
towards the top. Get a feel for this. When swimming remember
your chest is the most buoyant part of your body. Legs are
usually the least and can pull you down. This is no problem
once you get a feel for the water. Relax and let yourself
sink and push off the bottom and propel yourself forward and
feel the water rushing over your body and how it reacts to
positioning.

Just remember there are triathletes that have very low
bodyfat and they sink like rocks. They are swimming in open
water and do fine. Anyone can do it. I suspect your buoyancy
is much better than theirs, but you have this notion you
sink. When I let my air out of my lungs I sink to the bottom
quickly. It means nothing.

Breast stroke is pretty easy. You could get some good
reading at the library and practice this. If you are not
ready for that, do the doggy paddle and slow down. Don't
splash around in the water, try to be smooth and efficient.
If you sink, so what. Let yourself sink and push off the
bottom. Eventually you will not sink, because you will have
an understanding how your body will react. Don't worry about
sinking at first. It is not a bottomless pool. Anyone can
learn how to swim, if they let the fear go of sinking and
know they can push off the bottom. Eventually you will not
need the bottom because you have been in the pool long
enough to know how to feel comfortable and confident in any
stroke you want to learn. Nothing wrong with using the
bottom as a crutch for now to get a feel for the water.

Enjoy, Curt

"David B. Held" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have a problem, and I'm hoping someone here might be
able to help me. I'm almost 30, and I can't swim.
Technically, I can swim, but not for more than about 15
seconds. Specifically, I can swim with my face submerged
in the water, but I can't swim in such a way that I can
take breaths between each stroke. I've taken swimming
lessons a few times in my childhood, and I've had friends
who were good swimmers and lifeguards try to show me how.
I understand the basic principles and techniques of
swimming, but I suspect that I just don't have enough
buoyancy to do so.

I can float on my back for maybe 30 seconds before I
become too unstable. I can tread water for about 10
seconds, but that takes all my energy. I'm sure that
most of my problem with treading water is poor
technique, but nobody has ever been able to explain to
me how to do it in a way that I can succeed. There has
been no lack of trying.

I don't actually have negative buoyancy, but I'm very
close to it. If I fill my lungs and hold my breath and
completely relax do the dead man's float, the highest
point in my body will be a few inches below the water.
With very little difficulty I can descend to the bottom of
a pool without swimming. Probably, contracting any of my
major muscle groups pushes me over the limit into negative
buoyancy.

Most people I know or have seen seem to have very little
difficulty doing something as simple as the dog paddle.
However, it appears to me that their buoyancy allows them
to keep their head above water with very little
additional effort. For me to do the dog paddle requires
100% sustained effort, and naturally fails when I run out
of energy.

When I swim with my face in the water, I have no problem
staying near the surface. I can feel my legs kicking near
or on the surface, but my head is always below water. Even
if I hold my breath, I can't turn my head far enough to
the side to draw air.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any adult swimming lessons
in my area, so I can't just go try taking a class again.
There are numerous lessons available, but they're all for
children. Any suggestions or comments are welcome.

Dave

P.S. As far as my buoyancy goes, I have a stocky build,
but a fair amount of body fat. Well, not a
tremendous amount...maybe 20-30 lbs. over my ideal
weight. My BMI suggests that I'm into the obese
range, but my flat bench and leg press suggest
otherwise. Not sure if any of that is relevant or
not.

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Quoted message said:

I can float on my back for maybe 30 seconds before I
become too unstable. I can tread water for about 10
seconds, but that takes all my energy. I'm sure that
most of my problem with treading water is poor
technique, but nobody has ever been able to explain to
me how to do it in a way that I can succeed. There has
been no lack of trying.

The secret of floating is to trust the water. that's it:
trust that you can totally relax and the water will hold you
up. If your body is tense like a wound-up spring, you will
have trouble floating. Don't forget--you have two "water
wings" inside your chest that, when inflated, tend to help
you float.

Quoted message said:

I don't actually have negative buoyancy, but I'm very
close to it. If I fill my lungs and hold my breath and
completely relax do the dead man's float, the highest
point in my body will be a few inches below the water.
With very little difficulty I can descend to the bottom of
a pool without swimming. Probably, contracting any of my
major muscle groups pushes me over the limit into negative
buoyancy.

Like I said: you're tense and you really don't expect it
to work. You go into it thinking "this won't work. I
can't do it."

Quoted message said:

When I swim with my face in the water, I have no problem
staying near the surface. I can feel my legs kicking near
or on the surface, but my head is always below water. Even
if I hold my breath, I can't turn my head far enough to
the side to draw air.

You also have to turn your shoulders to the side at the same
time. Try turning so that your lower arm is practically
pointing at the bottom of the pool.

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately, I don't know of any adult swimming lessons
in my area, so I can't just go try taking a class again.
There are numerous lessons available, but they're all for
children. Any suggestions or comments are welcome.

download and look at the swim videos that have been
graciously posted. You will see that the swimmers are not
flat in the water, but rather tilt left and right as they
are swimming the crawl. Maybe you are trying to keep your
body rigid and flat in the water , which isn't good.

Pat in TX

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[...] First of all buoyancy is fine and everything, but
really is not important.

That's what people say, but then I look at how easily
other people float in the water, and I don't see how it
could be true.

Quoted message said:

Just so you know, most elite triathletes have very poor
buoyancy and they can swim circles around many.

Well, I have some friends who are pretty dense, and they
swim just fine, so I know what you mean.

Quoted message said:

It sounds to me that you have more of a fear of sinking.

Nah. It's not a fear of sinking. It's just the practicality
that when I'm 3' under, I can't take a breath, and I spend a
lot more time under the water than above it. I don't mind
swimming under the water or just hanging out near the bottom
of the shallow end. In fact, I do that just to feel
comfortable under the water.

Quoted message said:

So you sink...so what? It means nothing. You are probably
working much too hard in the water.

Yes, that's probably true. I'm sure my technique is very
inefficient, but I'm not at the point where I have the
minimum technique to swim *at all*, so it's very difficult
to improve something when you have 0 success to begin with.
It's like trying to improve your tennis game without being
able to ever hit the ball.

Quoted message said:

[...] Get in the shallow end of the pool and push off the
side and shoot yourself towards the bottom slowly and then
bend your body by pushing your stomach down to arch your
back and move towards the top.

This is an interesting idea that I will definitely try. Oh,
you don't have to tell me to go to the shallow end. 😉 The
only time I go to the deep end is when I'm within arm's
reach of the side.

Quoted message said:

[...] Legs are usually the least and can pull you down.

This is true, but I never have a problem getting my legs
high in the water. In fact, I have the opposite problem. My
legs get so high they can actually come out of the water,
while my face is too low. So my kicking is probably all
wrong (noticed someone saying something about ankle
flexibility, and I wondered how your feet are supposed to
move during kicking, but that's another subject). Anyway, it
sounds to me like you're suggesting that I arch my back a
little. It sounds uncomfortable, but I'll definitely try it.

Quoted message said:

[...] Just remember there are triathletes that have very
low bodyfat and they sink like rocks. They are swimming in
open water and do fine. Anyone can do it.

Ok, since you are so full of information, can you tell me
how they tread water? Because that depends a lot more on
buoyancy, doesn't it? I mean, when you're moving forward,
you can use some of your forward motion to lift your head
out of the water. But when you're standing in one place, it
seems much harder.

Quoted message said:

I suspect your buoyancy is much better than theirs, but
you have this notion you sink. When I let my air out of my
lungs I sink to the bottom quickly. It means nothing.

My problem is not that I sink, par se. It's that I sink just
far enough that my head is below the water. I can swim with
a snorkel just fine (as long as I keep moving).

Quoted message said:

[...] If you are not ready for that, do the doggy paddle
and slow down. Don't splash around in the water,

But isn't that what dogs do? 😉

Quoted message said:

try to be smooth and efficient. If you sink, so what. Let
yourself sink and push off the bottom.

Ok, that's something that didn't occur to me. I figured if
I spent more time below the water than above, then I was
doing something hopelessly wrong. But that makes sense that
I should just get used to not being able to keep my head
above water.

Quoted message said:

[...] Don't worry about sinking at first.

It's not sinking that bothers me, it's coming back up.
😉 It takes me one second to take a breath and sink 2'
down. It takes 3 times that long to get back up (and a
lot of energy).

Quoted message said:

[...] Nothing wrong with using the bottom as a crutch for
now to get a feel for the water.

Yeah, that's good advice. Thanks.

Dave

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat" <[email hidden]>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: Swimming noob

Quoted message said:

[...] You also have to turn your shoulders to the side at
the same time. Try turning so that your lower arm is
practically pointing at the bottom of the pool.

This might be something I'm missing. I'll try that out and
see if it helps. Also, I can't imagine moving your face in
and out of the water without getting water in your mouth
when you go to take a breath. Should I expect to do some
drinking when getting air?

Quoted message said:

[...] Maybe you are trying to keep your body rigid and
flat in the water, which isn't good.

Well, I'm not trying, but I manage to do so rather
naturally. 😉 I guess I feel that when I rotate to the side,
I sink more, so I naturally try to stay more or less level.
Sounds like you might have me pegged. Thanks for the advice.

Dave

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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Legs are usually the least and can pull you down.

This is true, but I never have a problem getting my legs
high in the water. In fact, I have the opposite problem.
My legs get so high they can actually come out of the
water, while my face is too low. So my kicking is
probably all wrong (noticed someone saying something
about ankle flexibility, and I wondered how your feet are
supposed to move during kicking, but that's another
subject). Anyway, it sounds to me like you're suggesting
that I arch my back a little. It sounds uncomfortable,
but I'll definitely try it.

That is interesting. Usually people have trouble keeping
their legs up. As far as kicking goes that is not that
important really. You buoyancy comes from you lung area
mostly. Usually people need to push their chest down a bit
to get their legs up. Sounds like you may have a natural
tendency to do this already. That could be a good thing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[...] Just remember there are triathletes that have very
low bodyfat and they sink like rocks. They are swimming
in open water and do fine. Anyone can do it.

Ok, since you are so full of information, can you tell me
how they tread water? Because that depends a lot more on
buoyancy, doesn't it? I mean, when you're moving forward,
you can use some of your forward motion to lift your head
out of the water. But when you're standing in one place,
it seems much harder.

Treading water has nothing to do with buoyancy really. You
can tread water by kicking you legs (not too fast) and using
your arms. When you get good you can do either. If you put
your arms out straight to your sides skim you hands across
the water like a boat would do. Notice when you are going
forward with you thumbs first and point your thumbs towards
the bottom, your arms will want to go towards the bottom.
When going in the same direction and point your thumbs up,
your arms will want to go towards the top. This is a lesson
you need to realize that all you need to do with your arms
is go forward with them with you thumbs up and go backward
with your thumbs down and you will be using the water to
keep you up. Relax, this is not accomplished in one day. Try
to do this with your arms and pick your feet up. Maybe you
will last for one second at first. That is ok. Eventually
you will get a feel how to tread water. Sure a fat women
would have a little easier time in some way, but I sink like
a rock and have no problems and I am not alone at all. Lots
of people sink fast and they can easily do this. It just
takes some time to get the hang of it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suspect your buoyancy is much better than theirs, but
you have this notion you sink. When I let my air out of
my lungs I sink to the bottom quickly. It means nothing.

My problem is not that I sink, par se. It's that I sink
just far enough that my head is below the water. I can
swim with a snorkel just fine (as long as I keep moving).

You may be lifiting your head too much when you breath. This
will cause you to sink more. Keep your head as close to the
water as possible when you breath.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[...] You also have to turn your shoulders to the side
at the same time. Try turning so that your lower arm is
practically pointing at the bottom of the pool.

This might be something I'm missing. I'll try that out and
see if it helps. Also, I can't imagine moving your face in
and out of the water without getting water in your mouth
when you go to take a breath. Should I expect to do some
drinking when getting air?

Gosh, no. It seems that when a person turns his head to the
side that there is a little trough in the flow of the water
where you can breathe in some air. You just turn your head
to the side without all that lifting and the little trough
magically appears as the water flows around your head. Don't
forget to exhale underwater, though. Don't try to breathe
out AND in at the same time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[...] Maybe you are trying to keep your body rigid and
flat in the water, which isn't good.

Well, I'm not trying, but I manage to do so rather
naturally. 😉 I guess I feel that when I rotate to the
side, I sink more, so I naturally try to stay more or less
level. Sounds like you might have me pegged. Thanks for
the advice.

Dave

Please--watch the videos. Or go to Borders' Bookstore and
look at the Learn to Swim books. A lot have drawings or
photos showing what your body should look like
underwater. Study those pictures and it will help you
visualize how to proceed.

Pat in TX

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[...] This might be something I'm missing. I'll try that
out and see if it helps. Also, I can't imagine moving
your face in and out of the water without getting water
in your mouth when you go to take a breath. Should I
expect to do some drinking when getting air?

Gosh, no. It seems that when a person turns his head to
the side that there is a little trough in the flow of the
water where you can breathe in some air. You just turn
your head to the side without all that lifting and the
little trough magically appears as the water flows around
your head.

I must not be magical enough yet, because I can't find the
trough. Maybe I'm not swimming fast enough or positioning
my head correctly. Anyway, I practiced turning quite a bit
today, and I could tell that my form is definitely
improving. In fact, I found that something between a crawl
and a sidestroke almost allowed me to keep my head above
water. I was completely surprised. One problem I had was
that it was easy to lean hard left, almost get my mouth out
of the water, and go back level with my body flat; but it
was very hard to rotate all the way around the other way.
It seemed like too much effort, and that I was wasting more
energy rotating than moving forward. Maybe I was rotating
too much. I looked at one video of a professional swimmer,
and she didn't look like she was rotating as much as I was.
But then, I wonder how appropriate it is for me to be
watching professionals, since their movements are
optimized, and thus minimized. I feel that maybe I need to
see some exaggerated motions so I can understand the
essential motions. At any rate, I know how to practice now
and I feel that I can improve and eventually get my head
out of the water.

Quoted message said:

Don't forget to exhale underwater, though. Don't try to
breathe out AND in at the same time.

Yeah, I have no problem holding my breath and swimming under
water, but breathing out while you're underwater is a bit of
a suprise the first time, because you have an urge to
surface immediately. So I figured I'd better fix that, and
just practiced emptying my lungs underwater, staying there
for a few seconds, and then popping my head above water just
long enough to take a breath. After a few minutes it felt
completely natural. Then I practiced doing that while
walking along the pool, and turning my head sideways as if I
were swimming. I'm sure I looked like an idiot, but there
was only one other person in the area, and he wasn't paying
attention. Eventually, when I figure out how to get my head
above water, I'll know how to breathe, and I can put 2 and 2
together. 😉

Quoted message said:

[...] Please--watch the videos. Or go to Borders'
Bookstore and look at the Learn to Swim books.

I don't have a Border's (but I wish I did). 😉 I do have a
B&N though. After reading some posts and sites around here,
I thought about getting the TI book, but it seemed to me
that it was for people who could already swim, which isn't
exactly what I'm looking for. Anyway, checking out a book at
the store (or even the library) is something so obvious I
couldn't possibly have thought of it myself. I mean, if it's
not on the net, could it possibly be worth reading? ;>

Quoted message said:

A lot have drawings or photos showing what your body
should look like underwater. Study those pictures and it
will help you visualize how to proceed.

One unfortunate thing is that I can't see what my body is
actually doing underwater. It would be great if swimming
pools had mirrors installed in the sides like weight rooms
and dance studios. The gym where I swim has mirrors in every
room except the pool. How ironic. I'm going to get some
goggles though so I can see where my head is with respect to
the waterline when I try to take a breath. I think that will
help me gauge my progress a lot. Once again, thanks for the
great advice.

Dave

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"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[...] This is true, but I never have a problem getting
my legs high in the water. In fact, I have the opposite
problem. My legs get so high they can actually come out
of the water, while my face is too low.

[...] That is interesting. Usually people have trouble
keeping their legs up.

Well, I found out that when I arch my back and try to get my
head out of the water, my legs want to go down. I was hoping
I could practice the crawl in pieces by just doing the arm
motions and letting my legs drag like a rudder, but quickly
found out that they work as a very effective lead weight
when I do that.

Quoted message said:

As far as kicking goes that is not that important really.

Good, because I've practiced kicking by hanging on to the
side of the pool and experimenting with different motions,
and I haven't found any that do anything but splash a lot of
water and make my legs tired.

Quoted message said:

You buoyancy comes from you lung area mostly. Usually
people need to push their chest down a bit to get their
legs up. Sounds like you may have a natural tendency to do
this already. That could be a good thing.

Well, what was really happening is that I had a natural
tendency to stick my face in the water because that was the
only way I could stay near the surface, so it was easy for
my legs to come up. The problem is that when I push my chest
down, I can feel my head come up, but not quite far enough
to take a breath, so I try to bring it up more, but then my
legs go down, and I can tell I'm doing it all wrong. But I
can also tell that I can improve with practice.

Quoted message said:

[...] Treading water has nothing to do with buoyancy
really. You can tread water by kicking you legs (not
too fast) and using your arms. When you get good you
can do either.

And I've had people show me the motions before, and when I
try them, they seem totally ineffective.

Quoted message said:

[...] This is a lesson you need to realize that all you
need to do with your arms is go forward with them with you
thumbs up and go backward with your thumbs down and you
will be using the water to keep you up.

Unfortunately, the amount of force generated this way is
entirely insufficient to keep my head anywhere near above
the waterline. If I do it very vigorously, I can keep my
head above water for a few seconds. But this is something I
*have* practiced for a long time whenever I'm in the water,
and I never seem to gain anything from
it. I do have somewhat shorter arms and legs than other
people, but not so much that you'd look at me and say:
"Oh my gosh, he's got short arms and legs!" So I wonder
if that has anything to do with it. With your hands
farther out, you can cover a greater distance through
the same angle. That combined with smaller hands and
feet might put me at an overall disadvantage, huh?

Quoted message said:

[...] Eventually you will get a feel how to tread
water. [...]

That's not what my experience suggests, but maybe I just
need to spend a *lot* of time in the pool. I like the water,
but I don't go in it very consistently. Anyway, thanks for
the comments and confirming that there is nothing magical
about treading water except that I can't do it. 😉

Dave

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David B. Held said:

Well, I found out that when I arch my back and try to get
my head out of the water, my legs want to go down. I was
hoping I could practice the crawl in pieces by just doing
the arm motions and letting my legs drag like a rudder,
but quickly found out that they work as a very effective
lead weight when I do that.

You don't want your head out of the water as that will, as
you discovered, cause your tail end to sink. You should try
to arch your back without lifting your head excessively. As
far as dragging legs are concerned, you could use a pull
buoy or, if one is not available, a kickboard clenched
between your knees or just above your knees (kind of like a
rudder but with a lot less drag than your hanging legs).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[...] Treading water has nothing to do with buoyancy
really. You can tread water by kicking you legs (not
too fast) and using your arms. When you get good you
can do either.

And I've had people show me the motions before, and when I
try them, they seem totally ineffective.

Quoted message said:

[...] This is a lesson you need to realize that all you
need to do with your arms is go forward with them with you
thumbs up and go backward with your thumbs down and you
will be using the water to keep you up.

Unfortunately, the amount of force generated this way is
entirely insufficient to keep my head anywhere near above
the waterline.

How are you holding your hands? It's not quite as simple as
thumbs up or down. Doing my best to imagine myself in the
water, I think you want your hands inclined at about 45
degrees to the water, like fan blades designed to push the
water *down*.

"Mark P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[...] You don't want your head out of the water as that
will, as you discovered, cause your tail end to sink. You
should try to arch your back without lifting your head
excessively. As far as dragging legs are concerned, you
could use a pull buoy or, if one is not available, a
kickboard clenched between your knees or just above your
knees (kind of like a rudder but with a lot less drag than
your hanging legs).

What exactly is a pull buoy?

Quoted message said:

[...] How are you holding your hands? It's not quite as
simple as thumbs up or down. Doing my best to imagine
myself in the water, I think you want your hands inclined
at about 45 degrees to the water, like fan blades designed
to push the water *down*.

Yes, I understand the basic hydrodynamics behind the arm
part of treading water. The leg part is another story, but
I assure you that I know how to move my arms, and it just
doesn't create enough lift. The only detail that I might
question is whether you hold your hand straight or cup it
a little. I tend to cup it a little, because that's more
natural, but I can see how it might affect the lift. The
other question I have is whether all the lift is generated
at the hands, or if some of it could possibly come from
the forearms.

Dave

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David B. Held said:

I have a problem, and I'm hoping someone here might be
able to help me. I'm almost 30, and I can't swim.
Technically, I can swim, but not for more than about 15
seconds. Specifically, I can swim with my face submerged
in the water, but I can't swim in such a way that I can
take breaths between each stroke. I've taken swimming
lessons a few times in my childhood, and I've had friends
who were good swimmers and lifeguards try to show me how.
I understand the basic principles and techniques of
swimming, but I suspect that I just don't have enough
buoyancy to do so.

I can float on my back for maybe 30 seconds before I become
too unstable.

That doesn't make sense. What happens at 30 seconds that
causes you to become unstable?

Quoted message said:

I can tread water for about 10 seconds, but that takes all
my energy. I'm sure that most of my problem with treading
water is poor technique, but nobody has ever been able to
explain to me how to do it in a way that I can succeed.
There has been no lack of trying.

That doesn't make sense either. If you are working hard to
tread water, you aren't treading water. Treading water
requires almost no energy.

Quoted message said:

I don't actually have negative buoyancy, but I'm very close
to it. If I fill my lungs and hold my breath and completely
relax do the dead man's float, the highest point in my body
will be a few inches below the water. With very little
difficulty I can descend to the bottom of a pool without
swimming. Probably, contracting any of my major muscle
groups pushes me over the limit into negative buoyancy.

How much do you weight? How tall are you?

Contracting a major muscle group is something you don't
really need to do in swimming.

Quoted message said:

Most people I know or have seen seem to have very little
difficulty doing something as simple as the dog paddle.
However, it appears to me that their buoyancy allows them
to keep their head above water with very little additional
effort. For me to do the dog paddle requires 100% sustained
effort, and naturally fails when I run out of energy.

Dog paddle is harder to do than crawlstroke. It requires
more energy to achieve the same speed as in crawlstroke.

Quoted message said:

When I swim with my face in the water, I have no problem
staying near the surface. I can feel my legs kicking near
or on the surface, but my head is always below water. Even
if I hold my breath, I can't turn my head far enough to the
side to draw air.

That doesn't make sense. When you are swimming, you should
be *on* the surface, not *near* the surface. Your muscles
are relaxed. You only need to turn your head slightly to
breath, because you are reaching and pulling with your
opposite arm at the same, and you are swinging your other
arm forward at the same time. You are rolling onto the side
opposite your breathing side.

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately, I don't know of any adult swimming lessons
in my area, so I can't just go try taking a class again.
There are numerous lessons available, but they're all for
children. Any suggestions or comments are welcome.

Dave

P.S. As far as my buoyancy goes, I have a stocky build,
but a fair amount of body fat. Well, not a tremendous
amount...maybe 20-30 lbs. over my ideal weight. My
BMI suggests that I'm into the obese range, but my
flat bench and leg press suggest otherwise. Not sure
if any of that is relevant or not.

Then your situation makes even less sense. You can't
have the negative buoyancy you describe with 20-30 lbs
of body fat.

martin

Martin W. Smith said:

Quoted message said:

Most people I know or have seen seem to have very little
difficulty doing something as simple as the dog paddle.
However, it appears to me that their buoyancy allows them
to keep their head above water with very little
additional effort. For me to do the dog paddle requires
100% sustained effort, and naturally fails when I run out
of energy.

Dog paddle is harder to do than crawlstroke. It requires
more energy to achieve the same speed as in crawlstroke.

You can achieve the same speed with dog paddle as in
crawlstroke?

Will wonders never cease? ;-)

I agree with everything else you said.

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

Never worry about anything that you see on the news.
To get on the news it must be sufficiently rare
that your chances of being involved are negligible!

Helgi Briem said:

Martin W. Smith said:

Quoted message said:

Most people I know or have seen seem to have very little
difficulty doing something as simple as the dog paddle.
However, it appears to me that their buoyancy allows them
to keep their head above water with very little
additional effort. For me to do the dog paddle requires
100% sustained effort, and naturally fails when I run out
of energy.

Dog paddle is harder to do than crawlstroke. It requires
more energy to achieve the same speed as in crawlstroke.

You can achieve the same speed with dog paddle as in
crawlstroke?

I mean at low speeds, of course.

Quoted message said:

Will wonders never cease? ;-)

I agree with everything else you said.

Martin W. Smith said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dog paddle is harder to do than crawlstroke. It requires
more energy to achieve the same speed as in crawlstroke.

You can achieve the same speed with dog paddle as in
crawlstroke?

I mean at low speeds, of course.

Yes, I know. After looking at nothing but "lumbar arch"
flamefests for weeks, I take any opportunity to lighten the
tone, no matter how lame.

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

Never worry about anything that you see on the news.
To get on the news it must be sufficiently rare
that your chances of being involved are negligible!

Quoted message said:

Well, I found out that when I arch my back and try to get
my head out of the water, my legs want to go down. I was
hoping I could practice the crawl in pieces by just doing
the arm motions and letting my legs drag like a rudder,
but quickly found out that they work as a very effective
lead weight when I do that.

I think it is possible to arch the back while turning the
head to one side to breathe without getting your head of out
of the water. In fact, why would you want to get your head
out of the water in the crawl?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As far as kicking goes that is not that important
really.

Good, because I've practiced kicking by hanging on to the
side of the pool and experimenting with different motions,
and I haven't found any that do anything but splash a lot
of water and make my legs tired.

Many newbies I have observed tend to kick from the knees
down. Make sure you are kicking from the hips down.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Treading water has nothing to do with buoyancy really.
You can tread water by kicking you legs (not too fast)
and using your arms. When you get good you can do
either.

And I've had people show me the motions before, and when I
try them, they seem totally ineffective.

Understand that treading water works by equal and opposite
reactons: pushing down on the water makes your body go up.
Treading water is understanding the subtle movements of the
hands and legs that work this principle of Physics. It has
nothing to do with speed or muscle strength in beating the
water to death.

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately, the amount of force generated this way is
entirely insufficient to keep my head anywhere near above
the waterline. If I do it very vigorously, I can keep my
head above water for a few seconds. But this is something
I *have* practiced for a long time whenever I'm in the
water, and I never seem to gain anything from
it. I do have somewhat shorter arms and legs than other
people, but not so much that you'd look at me and
say: "Oh my gosh, he's got short arms and legs!" So I
wonder if that has anything to do with it. With your
hands farther out, you can cover a greater distance
through the same angle. That combined with smaller
hands and feet might put me at an overall
disadvantage, huh?

No. If that were true, children wouldn't be able to swim
what with their relatively larger heads and small arms and
legs. Say, why don't you try the breast stroke instead of
the crawl. It will give you more confidence and you can
experiment with pushing down on the water.

Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

What exactly is a pull buoy?

It's a block of foam that is molded to fit between your
thighs so as to isolate the legs while you practice on the
upper body movements. It helps your legs to float.

Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

I must not be magical enough yet, because I can't find the
trough. Maybe I'm not swimming fast enough or positioning
my head correctly. Anyway, I practiced turning quite a bit
today, and I could tell that my form is definitely
improving. In fact, I found that

something

Quoted message said:

between a crawl and a sidestroke almost allowed me to keep
my head above water.

Don't try to keep your head above water. Your head should be
in the water. In fact, when I turn to breathe to the left,my
right ear and eye are in the water, not above it. Keep your
head in the water so that the water helps hold your head up,
therefore reducing fatigue on the neck and shoulder muscles.
In the sidestroke I even have one eye in the water. I see
people striving to keep their entire head out of the water
in the sidestroke and all that does is create more drag.

I was completely surprised. One problem I had

Quoted message said:

was that it was easy to lean hard left, almost get my
mouth out of the water, and go back level with my body
flat; but it was very hard to rotate all the way around
the other way.

I think that is true of everybody. I am left-handed, so it
is easier for me to breathe to the left.

Quoted message said:

Yeah, I have no problem holding my breath and swimming
under water, but breathing out while you're underwater is
a bit of a suprise the first time, because you have an
urge to surface immediately.

Exhale when your face is toward the pool floor, then rotate
to your left in preparation for the inhalation. This doesn't
take entire seconds; it is one right after the other.

Quoted message said:

One unfortunate thing is that I can't see what my body is
actually doing underwater. It would be great if swimming
pools had mirrors installed in the sides like weight rooms
and dance studios. The gym where I swim has mirrors in
every room except the pool. How ironic. I'm going to get
some goggles though so I can see where my head is with
respect to the waterline when I try to take a breath. I
think that will help me gauge my progress a lot. Once
again, thanks for the great advice.

Dave

Well, though, the photos do show you what your body should
look like and that helps your brain to visualize the
difference between "wrong" and "right."

I am astonished that you don't have goggles. This is a
major disadvantage to your learning to swim, because it is
a LOT easier to have your right eye in the water while
turning your head to the left if that eye is protected. Get
'em quick! And, by the way, try on several while in the
store. Some fit "in" the eye socket while others are larger
and fit on the bones. Some have foam and others have
gaskets of the same material as the scuba divers use (or no
gaskets at all). And, your eyes may be farther apart or
your socket bones shaped differently from me--or anybody
else. So, study the different styles in the store. Try them
on. It's expected. Personally, I prefer the ones with the
most peripheral vision possible. I just bought a Tyr
Racetech Large for only $9.95 at a local sports store. And,
one final piece of advice: consider where you will be using
the goggles. For indoor use, I always get clear lenses. I
see newbies come it with the darkest goggles possible---but
those are for outdoor use and will only make your vision
difficult when used at an indoor pool....like wearing
sunglasses at night.

Pat in TX

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

What exactly is a pull buoy?

shop.store.yahoo.comswimpulbuoy.htmlOpen ↗

- Al

X-No-Archive: Yes

Try using a kickboard and putting your face into the water
and breathing by extending the kickboard out in front of you
(i.e. extend your arms completely out above your head and
hold the kickboard in them) and practice blowing bubbles in
the water, and turning your head to the side for a breadth.
The kickboard will keep your head above the water and help
you get a feel for your position. Also, call some of the
local instructors and ask about private lessons.

Marianne

"David B. Held" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have a problem, and I'm hoping someone here might be
able to help me. I'm almost 30, and I can't swim.
Technically, I can swim, but not for more than about 15
seconds. Specifically, I can swim with my face submerged
in the water, but I can't swim in such a way that I can
take breaths between each stroke. I've taken swimming
lessons a few times in my childhood, and I've had friends
who were good swimmers and lifeguards try to show me how.
I understand the basic principles and techniques of
swimming, but I suspect that I just don't have enough
buoyancy to do so.

I can float on my back for maybe 30 seconds before I
become too unstable. I can tread water for about 10
seconds, but that takes all my energy. I'm sure that
most of my problem with treading water is poor
technique, but nobody has ever been able to explain to
me how to do it in a way that I can succeed. There has
been no lack of trying.

I don't actually have negative buoyancy, but I'm very
close to it. If I fill my lungs and hold my breath and
completely relax do the dead man's float, the highest
point in my body will be a few inches below the water.
With very little difficulty I can descend to the bottom of
a pool without swimming. Probably, contracting any of my
major muscle groups pushes me over the limit into negative
buoyancy.

Most people I know or have seen seem to have very little
difficulty doing something as simple as the dog paddle.
However, it appears to me that their buoyancy allows them
to keep their head above water with very little
additional effort. For me to do the dog paddle requires
100% sustained effort, and naturally fails when I run out
of energy.

When I swim with my face in the water, I have no problem
staying near the surface. I can feel my legs kicking near
or on the surface, but my head is always below water. Even
if I hold my breath, I can't turn my head far enough to
the side to draw air.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any adult swimming lessons
in my area, so I can't just go try taking a class again.
There are numerous lessons available, but they're all for
children. Any suggestions or comments are welcome.

Dave

P.S. As far as my buoyancy goes, I have a stocky build,
but a fair amount of body fat. Well, not a
tremendous amount...maybe 20-30 lbs. over my ideal
weight. My BMI suggests that I'm into the obese
range, but my flat bench and leg press suggest
otherwise. Not sure if any of that is relevant or
not.

---
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