Switching from SPDs to Looks....

Rory said:

I changed to the Look FreeArc pedals + red cleats as I was
having some knee problems on long rides, and thought the
pedal float might be the cause. After using SPD cleats
(515s I think - the double exit ones) which had quite a
bit of float anyway, I was suprised at how stiff the
Look's float is - is that normal?

Unfortunately, the floating cleats do work against quite a
bit of friction. I don't like it either. This friction can
be reduced by greasing the pedals and even shaving a thin
slice off the black rubber buffers on cleats. Don't remove
them altogether, though.

But, in any case, float action will ease up somewhat as the
pedals wear. By the way, have some Kool Kovers for when you
need to walk.

(I'm assuming you're using red cleats, as black cleats
result in zero float; also that float is on '9' setting if
you do have an adjustable model with big knob on back).

~PB

"Rory" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I managed the transistion from clipped to SPD pedals
relatively painlessly, but having just changed to Looks -
be warned, a big piece of shiny plastic doesn't have the
same grip on the road as a small pointy bit of metal. Ouch!

I changed to the Look FreeArc pedals + red cleats as I was
having some knee problems on long rides, and thought the
pedal float might be the cause. After using SPD cleats
(515s I think - the double exit ones) which had quite a
bit of float anyway, I was suprised at how stiff the
Look's float is - is that normal? This is with proper sole-
less road shoes: I'd discovered that even with Shimano
shoes with Shimano cleats & pedals you need to hack the
sole away with a knife to stop the sole interferring with
float & twist-exiting...

Generally, the larger platform feels a lot more
comfortable than regular SPD.

I've been wondering about Looks too (due to knee problems)
but at the moment I'm swinging towards the Speedplays
(frogs) that are compatable with two hole SPD shoes. Was
there a particular reason you chose Looks?

Frank X wrote: [in reply to Rory]

Quoted message said:

I've been wondering about Looks too (due to knee problems)
but at the moment I'm swinging towards the Speedplays
(frogs) that are compatable with two hole SPD shoes. Was
there a particular reason you chose Looks?

/My/ reason: Cheaper, larger platform, release in both
directions. Frogs only release when foot is twisted in one
direction (heels outwards, I think) -- which I find a scary
prospect for the event of crashes, where feet or bike could
twist in either direction.

~PB

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank X wrote: [in reply to Rory]

Quoted message said:

I've been wondering about Looks too (due to knee
problems) but at the moment I'm swinging towards the
Speedplays (frogs) that are compatable with two hole SPD
shoes. Was there a particular reason you chose Looks?

/My/ reason: Cheaper, larger platform, release in both
directions. Frogs only release when foot is twisted in one
direction (heels outwards, I think) -- which I find a
scary prospect for the event of crashes, where feet or
bike could twist in either direction.

My current SPDs release only in one direction and I'm happy
with that.

What does larger platform mean, is that likely to be better
for my knees?

Frank X said:

My current SPDs release only in one direction and I'm
happy with that.

What does larger platform mean, is that likely to be
better for my knees?

The pedal itself is bigger with an accordingly larger
contact point and lower pressure over it. In practice a
fairly stiff sole (as pretty much any cycling shoe has) will
distribute the load quite well in any case so it's not
/that/ much of an issue (maybe if you're Going For It in a
big way), and I don't think it would make any obvious
difference to your knees.

Personally, I prefer Time ATACs! They have lateral as well
as rotational float and none of this cleat cover business if
you fancy walking anywhere and no need for pratting about
with tension settings. They seem to have a more positive
engagement than SPuDs and are less affected by cleat wear
making it easier to pull out unintentionally. I've not used
Looks, but can do without the tottering around business as I
like clipless for utility work on the freight bike and also
off-road on the MTB where something you can't walk around in
easily would be a liability.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111
ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382
640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net
[email hidden] dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Frank X said:

Quoted message said:

Cheaper, larger platform, release in both directions.
Frogs only release when foot is twisted in one
direction (heels outwards, I think) -- which I find a
scary prospect for the event of crashes, where feet or
bike could twist in either direction.

My current SPDs release only in one direction and I'm
happy with that.

Are you sure? I thought all SPDs can release by twisting
inwards as well as outwards, even if that feels unnatural
and more force is required. I think some multi-directional
versions also release simply by pulling upwards -- that's
not what I mean.

But in any case, you may be perfectly happy in normal use
with one-direction but you won't always have the opportunity
to deliberately twist feet in a crash. Getting stuck to the
bike or tangled up in it can result in greater injury. I
know of one case where a rider seriously injured his leg
because of this problem. The rider or the bike tends to
twist to one side naturally during a fall but it can be to
either side!

Quoted message said:

What does larger platform mean,

Simply that the pedal is larger, with a larger area for the
cleat to contact. This just tends to feel more comfortable
efficient, even I find with extremely rigid soles (which
doesn't make sense according to the theories but seems to be
the case in reality with me).

Quoted message said:

is that likely to be better for my knees?

I don't think so. That's where the large amount of float of
Speedplays could indeed help you, although Look pedals
provide up to 9 degrees* which is quite a lot. You get about
5 degrees with SPD. Time pedals also have more float than
SPD--another option for you to consider: I think they have
models compatible with SPD shoes.

* albeit with quite some friction with standard setup, but
this can be vastly improved with grease and altering cleat
rubber thingy (please see other reply).

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Frank X said:

What does larger platform mean,

Simply that the pedal is larger, with a larger area for
the cleat to contact. This just tends to feel more
comfortable efficient, even I find with extremely rigid
soles (which doesn't make sense according to the theories
but seems to be the case in reality with me).

ps. Laregr pedal also helps with clipping in as you've got
a larger target to aim for, although that's only half
the story. Orientation of pedal* and exact design of
mechanism being the other half. (Frogs are easy to get
into, apparently).

Look PP pedals always point in the same useful direction
before feet are on them because of their weighting.

~PB

"Frank X" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank X wrote: [in reply to Rory]

Quoted message said:

I've been wondering about Looks too (due to knee
problems) but at the moment I'm swinging towards the
Speedplays (frogs) that are compatable with two hole
SPD shoes. Was there a particular reason you chose
Looks?

/My/ reason: Cheaper, larger platform, release in both
directions. Frogs only release when foot is twisted in
one direction (heels outwards, I think) -- which I find
a scary prospect for the event of crashes, where feet or
bike could twist in either direction.

My current SPDs release only in one direction and I'm
happy with that.

What does larger platform mean, is that likely to be
better for my knees?

I changed to red Looks last year and have had no knee
problems so far this year, amazing how off centre your feet
pedal once you allow them to, the left hand heel more or
less rubs the crank now whereas it was an inch away with
black cleats.

MartinM said:

"Frank X" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<2kkss9F3ln5jU1@uni-
berlin.de>...

Quoted message said:

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank X wrote: [in reply to Rory]

>I've been wondering about Looks too (due to knee
>problems) but at the moment I'm swinging towards the
>Speedplays (frogs) that are compatable with two hole SPD
>shoes. Was there a particular reason you chose Looks?

/My/ reason: Cheaper, larger platform, release in both
directions. Frogs only release when foot is twisted in
one direction (heels outwards, I think) -- which I find a
scary prospect for the event of crashes, where feet or
bike could twist in either direction.

My current SPDs release only in one direction and I'm
happy with that.

What does larger platform mean, is that likely to be
better for my knees?

I changed to red Looks last year and have had no knee
problems so far this year, amazing how off centre your
feet pedal once you allow them to, the left hand heel more
or less rubs the crank now whereas it was an inch away
with black cleats.

I find something similar, and it's not the same for both
feet either - they tend to sit at different angles and on
slightly different places on the pedals. I'm sure this'll
make it interesting once I actually put the spd's on the
bike rather than current platforms/toecups.

--

Velvet

Velvet said:

I find something similar, and it's not the same for both
feet either - they tend to sit at different angles and on
slightly different places on the pedals. I'm sure this'll
make it interesting once I actually put the spd's on the
bike rather than current platforms/toecups.

SPuDs don't give you lateral float, so unless I've had a
Brain Failure (quite possible, this time on a Friday with a
weekend of server upgrades ahead) any difference in basic
foot location on the pedal itself will be a result of the
cleats being in different locations on each foot. Many SPuD
shoes have sliders built in to the anchor plates so you can
tune the position, so this would be entirely possible.

As for the "make it interesting" bit, I rather doubt it.
As long as your feet end up where it seems natural for
them to do so it probably won't make any real difference
at all in practice.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111
ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382
640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net
[email hidden] dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch said:

Velvet said:

I find something similar, and it's not the same for both
feet either - they tend to sit at different angles and on
slightly different places on the pedals. I'm sure this'll
make it interesting once I actually put the spd's on the
bike rather than current platforms/toecups.

SPuDs don't give you lateral float, so unless I've had a
Brain Failure (quite possible, this time on a Friday with
a weekend of server upgrades ahead) any difference in
basic foot location on the pedal itself will be a result
of the cleats being in different locations on each foot.
Many SPuD shoes have sliders built in to the anchor plates
so you can tune the position, so this would be entirely
possible.

As for the "make it interesting" bit, I rather doubt it.
As long as your feet end up where it seems natural for
them to do so it probably won't make any real difference
at all in practice.

Pete.

Indeed - I meant the sheer amount of time spent fine-tuning
the relative positions of cleats on shoes to get the foot
angle right :-)

I've already discovered how NOT to find out where that
is... by leaving the cleats loose... despite having read
endless times the 'thou shalt tighten the cleats FULLY to
the shoes' mantra...

I am now accomplished at removing shoes from cleats and
cleats from pedals (in that order), unfortunately.

--

Velvet

Velvet said:

Indeed - I meant the sheer amount of time spent fine-
tuning the relative positions of cleats on shoes to get
the foot angle right :-)

The pedal should have a reasonable degree of /rotational/
float (if I'm remembering my SPuDs properly), so your foot
can sit wherever it wants to as far as angle of dangle is
concerned. As long as it isn't really skewed it should be
fine, and the only problem with really skewed is you might
not get out (as you know...).

So you should only need to get them matched front/back on
each shoe, and let the rotational float take up any slack.
Not too much time needed in this case.

Top Tip for the bolts that screw the cleats in, and that's
put a little PTFE grease on the threads before you put them
in. IME it makes getting them tight enough for the cleat to
stop moving about much easier, and it's easier to undo them
come replacement time as well.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111
ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382
640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net
[email hidden] dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch said:

Velvet said:

Indeed - I meant the sheer amount of time spent fine-
tuning the relative positions of cleats on shoes to get
the foot angle right :-)

The pedal should have a reasonable degree of /rotational/
float (if I'm remembering my SPuDs properly), so your foot
can sit wherever it wants to as far as angle of dangle is
concerned. As long as it isn't really skewed it should be
fine, and the only problem with really skewed is you might
not get out (as you know...).

So you should only need to get them matched front/back on
each shoe, and let the rotational float take up any slack.
Not too much time needed in this case.

Top Tip for the bolts that screw the cleats in, and that's
put a little PTFE grease on the threads before you put
them in. IME it makes getting them tight enough for the
cleat to stop moving about much easier, and it's easier to
undo them come replacement time as well.

Pete.

Ah, ta for the tip. I might be making use of that before the
summer's over, the way I'm going... (yay!) - when I have a
good ride it's now REALLY good, and I almost feel ready for
spds. Still having some bad ones though, so I know it's not
*quite* the right time...

*And* I still have to learn the signalling. Which really
should be done before the spds go on, I think.

--

Velvet

Peter Clinch said:

Personally, I prefer Time ATACs! They have lateral as well
as rotational float and none of this cleat cover business
if you fancy walking anywhere and no need for pratting
about with tension settings. They seem to have a more
positive engagement than SPuDs and are less affected by
cleat wear making it easier to pull out unintentionally.
I've not used Looks, but can do without the tottering
around business as I like clipless for utility work on the
freight bike and also off-road on the MTB where something
you can't walk around in easily would be a liability.

The difference between Looks and Time ATACs in HUGE. In
terms of positive feel of the interface between the pedal
and the shoe, Looks are unmatched -- great fun. I use
ATACs for my hack bike, but going back to them after
Looks, they feel a bit flaky. I've not tried Shimano road
SPDs but I have tried the off-road version, and they are
not as good as ATACs.

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank X said:

Quoted message said:

Cheaper, larger platform, release in both directions.
Frogs only release when foot is twisted in one
direction (heels outwards, I think) -- which I find a
scary prospect for the event of crashes, where feet
or bike could twist in either direction.

My current SPDs release only in one direction and I'm
happy with that.

Are you sure? I thought all SPDs can release by twisting
inwards as well as outwards, even if that feels unnatural
and more force is required. I think some multi-directional
versions also release simply by pulling upwards -- that's
not what I mean.

Your right, it does come off both ways.

Quoted message said:

But in any case, you may be perfectly happy in normal use
with one-direction but you won't always have the
opportunity to deliberately twist feet in a crash. Getting
stuck to the bike or tangled up in it can result in
greater injury. I know of one case where a rider seriously
injured his leg because of this problem. The rider or the
bike tends to twist to one side naturally during a fall
but it can be to either side!

I did understand what you meant and it is important to me,
hard to tell how important with out trying though :o(.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What does larger platform mean,

Simply that the pedal is larger, with a larger area for
the cleat to contact. This just tends to feel more
comfortable efficient, even I find with extremely rigid
soles (which doesn't make sense according to the theories
but seems to be the case in reality with me).

Quoted message said:

is that likely to be better for my knees?

I don't think so. That's where the large amount of float
of Speedplays could indeed help you, although Look pedals
provide up to 9 degrees* which is quite a lot. You get
about 5 degrees with SPD. Time pedals also have more float
than SPD--another option for you to consider: I think they
have models compatible with SPD shoes.

Thanks, I think I'll go with the Speedplays for the extra
float and because they are recessed cleats.

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank X wrote:

Quoted message said:

Personally, I prefer Time ATACs! They have lateral as well
as rotational float and none of this cleat cover business
if you fancy walking anywhere and no need for pratting
about with tension settings. They seem to have a more
positive engagement than SPuDs and are less affected by
cleat wear making it easier to pull out unintentionally.
I've not used Looks, but can do without the tottering
around business as I like clipless for utility work on the
freight bike and also off-road on the MTB where something
you can't walk around in easily would be a liability.

How are they on the knees?, If it wasn't for my knees I
would say SPiDs are perfect.

And do they fit two hole SPD shoes. I can't imagine life
without my sandals.

Frank X said:

How are they on the knees?, If it wasn't for my knees I
would say SPiDs are perfect.

I can't speak for your particular knees, of course, but the
fact that they have lateral as well as rotational float
(that is your foot can slide a little sideways without
rotating) means you've probably got the best chance going of
knee compatibility.

Quoted message said:

And do they fit two hole SPD shoes. I can't imagine life
without my sandals.

Yes, I use Shimano SD-60 sandals on my ATACs

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111
ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382
640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net
[email hidden] dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

"Frank X" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank X wrote:

Quoted message said:

Personally, I prefer Time ATACs! They have lateral as
well as

rotational

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

float and none of this cleat cover business if you fancy
walking

anywhere

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and no need for pratting about with tension settings.
They seem to have

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more positive engagement than SPuDs and are less
affected by cleat wear making it easier to pull out
unintentionally. I've not used Looks, but

can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

do without the tottering around business as I like
clipless for utility work on the freight bike and also
off-road on the MTB where something

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can't walk around in easily would be a liability.

How are they on the knees?, If it wasn't for my knees I
would say SPiDs

are

Quoted message said:

perfect.

And do they fit two hole SPD shoes. I can't imagine life
without my

sandals.

I do have a knee that is prone to problems and I tried Time
ATACS last year as my first clipless pedal. I immediately
suffered a dull ache in the knee after (not during) rides of
only 5-10 miles. As I was heading off on tour I reverted to
toeclips until this Spring. This time I was more careful
with my positioning of the cleat. I took someone's advice
from this group and made a note of how my foot was angled
when I used toeclips and also when hanging down with me
sitting on a ledge. I then tried to replicate this angle
with the cleat, which involved pushing it to the limit of
its range on my shoes. It worked this time and I'm now I'm
happily cliplesss. The shoes are Shimano TO-70s so they're
compatable with these SPD shoes at least. Of course, I've
only tried these pedals and everybody's knees are not the
same. HTH,

tony R.

Frank X said:

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank X wrote:

Quoted message said:

Personally, I prefer Time ATACs! They have lateral as
well as rotational float and none of this cleat cover
business if you fancy walking anywhere

How are they on the knees?, If it wasn't for my knees I
would say SPiDs are perfect.

I have twisted bones in my lower legs, which cause various
knock-on problems in the knee joints. My first physio (20
years ago) reckoned I'd be OK if I didn't cycle, row or play
squash, so I've never played squash.

Once aligned correctly, ATACs are better for my knees than
clips-and-straps, while SPDs were several times worse. Most
of teh shoes I've used have required surgery of teh sole to
get teh cleat to teh required angle, but once that's done
they're fine (and you can transfer the angle from one pait
of shoes to teh next as shoes wear out, and it's easy to put
a new cleat on at teh same angle because it marks teh sole
where it's been clamped in place).

I have ATACs on all my bikes and teh trike. I have platforms
on teh unicycle.

Quoted message said:

And do they fit two hole SPD shoes. I can't imagine life
without my sandals.

Yes, teh cleat is standard SPD-cleat fixing centres.

regards, Ian SMith
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