The Trudgen Stroke

(Steve Curtis) said:

Steve Freides said:

We still teach sidestroke, including that
kick, in the YMCA swimming program
and the YMCA lifeguard class.

Has there ever been a sanctioned competitive sidestroke event?

I was told by a Navy Seal a few years ago the the sidestroke was the
offical Seal stroke and the one the used for all their water work.

For one, after a hard day of cycling, it helps to work

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

out the tightness of my quads and hamstrings.

Ten minutes of stretching would be more efficient for your quads and
hamstrings.

No. I am talking about the soreness that comes the next day. I can stretch
after cycling or even before, but yesterday I had 5 good-sized hills that
left some soreness today.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can write more about the Trudgeon stroke later. The natives weren't
using the flutter kick, according to the book.

The article I read said they were doing crawlstroke. In either case, they
weren't using the sidestroke scissors kick.

Okay, here's what the book says:
"Quoting from Sinclair and Henry's work on Swimming "the account of an eye
witness of Trudgen's first race in England is revealing." The following in
turn is a quotation from Watson in the Swimming Record of 1873. He said, "A
surprising swimmer carried off the handicap--we allude to Trudgen: this
individual swam with both arms entirely out of water, an action peculiar to
Indians. His time was very fast, particularly for one who appears to know
but little of swimming, and should he become more finished of style, we
shall expect to see him take a position almost second to none as a
swimmer...."

"In Trudgen, however, a totally opposite state of things existed; for here
we had a man swimming apparently easy, turning very badly and when finished,
appearing as though he could have gone another 80 yards at the same pace.
His action reminds an observer of a style peculiar to the Indians: both arms
are thrown partly sideways, but very slowly, and the head kept completely
above water."

"Henry, remarking further about Trudgen's style wrote, "The body is lifted
at each stroke and at each swing of the arms seems to be hurled forward, a
considerable swirl of the water occurring as each movement is finished."
Neither of these quotations describe the leg portion of the stroke but that
of Henry does give a clue. The "hurling forward of the body at each stroke
of the arms" and the high position of the head and shoulders can mean only
one thing; that the legs using a combination of breast and side stroke kick
were delivering a thrust with each arm stroke. This is substantiated by
evidence displayed among some native South Americans and West Indians who
use this double kick with the hand-over-hand arm stroke even now."

"Briefly, it (the trudgen stroke) is a combination of the hand-over-hand
method of employing the arms in combination with a single scissors stroke of
the legs which by adding a considerable roll of the body has evolved from
the overarm side stroke. The arm on one side strokes along but on the
other, the arm pull is combined with a scissors of the legs."

So, according to "American Red Cross Swimming and Diving" published in 1938,
the scissors kick associated with the sidestroke is integral to the trudgen
stroke and always has been. Not only that, but they used a lot fewer commas
in that day!

I still plan to ask those people who swim this way (sort of) but I haven't
seen them in a few days. Today there was a young guy who did a kind of
double wave with his hands right after they entered the water in the forward
crawl. It reminded me of the way Queen Elizabeth waves by rotating her
wrist. With him, it appeared he was shaking the water off of his
hands---underwater. There was an older man there who swam the crawl with his
entire head out of the water and had to rest at the end of the pool. Looking
left, looking right, not missing a thing! The young woman with all the pool
toys showed up, and there was the 80 year old woman who swims without moving
her legs ("I don't know why I don't move my legs, but I just don't---I used
to, I remember that."😉, and a middle-aged woman who swims the crawl straight
armed until it gets to the rib cage and then she retracts her hand to her
belly as if it got stung. The usual bunch except for the older woman who
swims the crawl with her elbow entering the water first. The regular
crowd....

Pat in TX

Pat said:

For one, after a hard day of cycling, it helps to work

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

out the tightness of my quads and hamstrings.

Ten minutes of stretching would be more efficient for your quads and
hamstrings.

No. I am talking about the soreness that comes the next day. I can stretch
after cycling or even before, but yesterday I had 5 good-sized hills that
left some soreness today.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can write more about the Trudgeon stroke later. The natives weren't
using the flutter kick, according to the book.

The article I read said they were doing crawlstroke. In either case, they
weren't using the sidestroke scissors kick.

Hatfield's 1915 description of the "Trudgeon Crawl Stroke" very clearly
describes a scissors action, and indicates it is the "trudgeon kick".

Quoted message said:

Okay, here's what the book says:
"Quoting from Sinclair and Henry's work on Swimming "the account of an eye
witness of Trudgen's first race in England is revealing." The following in
turn is a quotation from Watson in the Swimming Record of 1873. He said, "A
surprising swimmer carried off the handicap--we allude to Trudgen: this
individual swam with both arms entirely out of water, an action peculiar to
Indians. His time was very fast, particularly for one who appears to know
but little of swimming, and should he become more finished of style, we
shall expect to see him take a position almost second to none as a
swimmer...."

"In Trudgen, however, a totally opposite state of things existed; for here
we had a man swimming apparently easy, turning very badly and when finished,
appearing as though he could have gone another 80 yards at the same pace.
His action reminds an observer of a style peculiar to the Indians: both arms
are thrown partly sideways, but very slowly, and the head kept completely
above water."

"Henry, remarking further about Trudgen's style wrote, "The body is lifted
at each stroke and at each swing of the arms seems to be hurled forward, a
considerable swirl of the water occurring as each movement is finished."
Neither of these quotations describe the leg portion of the stroke but that
of Henry does give a clue. The "hurling forward of the body at each stroke
of the arms" and the high position of the head and shoulders can mean only
one thing; that the legs using a combination of breast and side stroke kick
were delivering a thrust with each arm stroke. This is substantiated by
evidence displayed among some native South Americans and West Indians who
use this double kick with the hand-over-hand arm stroke even now."

"Briefly, it (the trudgen stroke) is a combination of the hand-over-hand
method of employing the arms in combination with a single scissors stroke of
the legs which by adding a considerable roll of the body has evolved from
the overarm side stroke. The arm on one side strokes along but on the
other, the arm pull is combined with a scissors of the legs."

So, according to "American Red Cross Swimming and Diving" published in 1938,
the scissors kick associated with the sidestroke is integral to the trudgen
stroke and always has been. Not only that, but they used a lot fewer commas
in that day!

I still plan to ask those people who swim this way (sort of) but I haven't
seen them in a few days. Today there was a young guy who did a kind of
double wave with his hands right after they entered the water in the forward
crawl. It reminded me of the way Queen Elizabeth waves by rotating her
wrist. With him, it appeared he was shaking the water off of his
hands---underwater. There was an older man there who swam the crawl with his
entire head out of the water and had to rest at the end of the pool. Looking
left, looking right, not missing a thing! The young woman with all the pool
toys showed up, and there was the 80 year old woman who swims without moving
her legs ("I don't know why I don't move my legs, but I just don't---I used
to, I remember that."😉, and a middle-aged woman who swims the crawl straight
armed until it gets to the rib cage and then she retracts her hand to her
belly as if it got stung. The usual bunch except for the older woman who
swims the crawl with her elbow entering the water first. The regular
crowd....

Pat in TX

The woman who does not move her legs may well have improved her stroke to
the point where leg action is superfluous.

mwsmith said:

As someone else explained, if you know how to swim
crawlstroke, sidestroke is only useful for dragging an unconscious
person to shore.

I find that the sidestroke requires less energy, although it's slower,
than the crawl, and I use it to rest if I start getting exhausted. I
suspect that it is because more propulsion comes from my legs.

--
Thad

mwsmith said:

Pat said:

As to the original question, the answer is, yes, the sidestroke was
used in competition. I find it interesting that evidently in those
days the competition was simply who got to the end point first and
whatever stroke was used didn't matter.

You can still do that, sort of, in events that are called freestyle.
It's not strictly freestyle, but you don't have to swim crawlstroke.

What restrictions are there in competitive freestyle?

--
Thad

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:41:22 -0700, Thad Smith <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

mwsmith said:

Pat said:

As to the original question, the answer is, yes, the sidestroke was
used in competition. I find it interesting that evidently in those
days the competition was simply who got to the end point first and
whatever stroke was used didn't matter.

You can still do that, sort of, in events that are called freestyle.
It's not strictly freestyle, but you don't have to swim crawlstroke.

What restrictions are there in competitive freestyle?

The only restrictions using FINA based rules are heads-up by 15
meters, no pushing forward off the pool bottom, or pulling the lane
ropes. I can't think of anything else unless it's a medley.

--
Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, TX
http://davidclary.com

Pat said:

For one, after a hard day of cycling, it helps to work

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

out the tightness of my quads and hamstrings.

Ten minutes of stretching would be more efficient for your quads and
hamstrings.

No. I am talking about the soreness that comes the next day. I can stretch
after cycling or even before, but yesterday I had 5 good-sized hills that
left some soreness today.

Maybe you should have said soreness then, instead of tightness.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can write more about the Trudgeon stroke later. The natives weren't
using the flutter kick, according to the book.

The article I read said they were doing crawlstroke. In either case, they
weren't using the sidestroke scissors kick.

Okay, here's what the book says:
"Quoting from Sinclair and Henry's work on Swimming "the account of an eye
witness of Trudgen's first race in England is revealing." The following in
turn is a quotation from Watson in the Swimming Record of 1873. He said, "A
surprising swimmer carried off the handicap--we allude to Trudgen: this
individual swam with both arms entirely out of water, an action peculiar to
Indians. His time was very fast, particularly for one who appears to know
but little of swimming, and should he become more finished of style, we
shall expect to see him take a position almost second to none as a
swimmer...."

"In Trudgen, however, a totally opposite state of things existed; for here
we had a man swimming apparently easy, turning very badly and when finished,
appearing as though he could have gone another 80 yards at the same pace.
His action reminds an observer of a style peculiar to the Indians: both arms
are thrown partly sideways, but very slowly, and the head kept completely
above water."

"Henry, remarking further about Trudgen's style wrote, "The body is lifted
at each stroke and at each swing of the arms seems to be hurled forward, a
considerable swirl of the water occurring as each movement is finished."
Neither of these quotations describe the leg portion of the stroke but that
of Henry does give a clue. The "hurling forward of the body at each stroke
of the arms" and the high position of the head and shoulders can mean only
one thing; that the legs using a combination of breast and side stroke kick
were delivering a thrust with each arm stroke. This is substantiated by
evidence displayed among some native South Americans and West Indians who
use this double kick with the hand-over-hand arm stroke even now."

"Briefly, it (the trudgen stroke) is a combination of the hand-over-hand
method of employing the arms in combination with a single scissors stroke of
the legs which by adding a considerable roll of the body has evolved from
the overarm side stroke. The arm on one side strokes along but on the
other, the arm pull is combined with a scissors of the legs."

So, according to "American Red Cross Swimming and Diving" published in 1938,
the scissors kick associated with the sidestroke is integral to the trudgen
stroke and always has been. Not only that, but they used a lot fewer commas
in that day!

I've seen the kick he is describing and used it, if I understand him
correctly. It isn't a scissors kick in the sidestroke sense. It's an
exaggerated flutter kick, although flutter isn't the right term. The
legs aren't bent, as they are in the sidestroke kick. Where I use it is
in open water swimming in the ocean, to rise up to get my bearings.

Quoted message said:

I still plan to ask those people who swim this way (sort of) but I haven't
seen them in a few days. Today there was a young guy who did a kind of
double wave with his hands right after they entered the water in the forward
crawl. It reminded me of the way Queen Elizabeth waves by rotating her
wrist. With him, it appeared he was shaking the water off of his
hands---underwater. There was an older man there who swam the crawl with his
entire head out of the water and had to rest at the end of the pool. Looking
left, looking right, not missing a thing! The young woman with all the pool
toys showed up, and there was the 80 year old woman who swims without moving
her legs ("I don't know why I don't move my legs, but I just don't---I used
to, I remember that."😉, and a middle-aged woman who swims the crawl straight
armed until it gets to the rib cage and then she retracts her hand to her
belly as if it got stung. The usual bunch except for the older woman who
swims the crawl with her elbow entering the water first. The regular
crowd....

Pat in TX

_ said:

Pat said:

For one, after a hard day of cycling, it helps to work

Quoted message said:

> out the tightness of my quads and hamstrings.
Ten minutes of stretching would be more efficient for your quads and
hamstrings.

No. I am talking about the soreness that comes the next day. I can stretch
after cycling or even before, but yesterday I had 5 good-sized hills that
left some soreness today.

Quoted message said:

> I can write more about the Trudgeon stroke later. The natives weren't
> using the flutter kick, according to the book.
The article I read said they were doing crawlstroke. In either case, they
weren't using the sidestroke scissors kick.

Hatfield's 1915 description of the "Trudgeon Crawl Stroke" very clearly
describes a scissors action, and indicates it is the "trudgeon kick".

No.

No.

I know what the description of Trudgen's stroke say. I'm talking about
what the natives were doing in open water. The article I read said
Trudgen didn't observe their kick correctly. When he returned to
England, the Trudgen stroke was his own interpretation.

No.

No.

Thad Smith said:

mwsmith said:

Pat said:

As to the original question, the answer is, yes, the sidestroke was
used in competition. I find it interesting that evidently in those
days the competition was simply who got to the end point first and
whatever stroke was used didn't matter.

You can still do that, sort of, in events that are called freestyle.
It's not strictly freestyle, but you don't have to swim crawlstroke.

What restrictions are there in competitive freestyle?

Actually, I guess I was thinking of the IM, where the freestyle leg just
can't be one of the other three strokes.

Thad Smith said:

mwsmith said:

As someone else explained, if you know how to swim crawlstroke,
sidestroke is only useful for dragging an unconscious person to shore.

I find that the sidestroke requires less energy, although it's slower,
than the crawl, and I use it to rest if I start getting exhausted. I
suspect that it is because more propulsion comes from my legs.

Of course, but you can rest doing any stroke slowly. Except butterfly.

cardarch said:

(Steve Curtis) said:

Steve Freides said:

We still teach sidestroke, including that
kick, in the YMCA swimming program
and the YMCA lifeguard class.

Has there ever been a sanctioned competitive sidestroke event?

I was told by a Navy Seal a few years ago the the sidestroke was the
offical Seal stroke and the one the used for all their water work.

Don't they usually wear fins?

and there was the 80 year old woman who swims without moving

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

her legs ("I don't know why I don't move my legs, but I just don't---I
used
to, I remember that."😉, >>
Pat in TX

The woman who does not move her legs may well have improved her stroke to
the point where leg action is superfluous.

That's nice of you to say, but it's not true. She holds her entire head out
of the water and barely lifts her arms over the surface before they flop
down again. At first, I thought she was about to drown at any second
because she is so feeble in her attempts to swim. I wanted to growl "Swim
like you mean it!" at her, but of course I didn't. I did advise her that she
would enjoy it more if she wore goggles, to which she replied, "I tried to
wear a pair, but they leaked." I told her about different goggle designs,
etc., but she just replied, " I tried a pair once, but they just leaked."
The strange thing about her is that at the end of her swimming, she hangs on
to the pool ladder and vigorously exercises her legs for about 10
minutes...but she won't use her legs to swim. Like I said, she's sweet, but
she's also a bit dotty....

Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, according to "American Red Cross Swimming and Diving" published in
1938, the scissors kick associated with the sidestroke is integral to the
trudgen stroke and always has been. Not only that, but they used a lot
fewer commas in that day!

I've seen the kick he is describing and used it, if I understand him
correctly. It isn't a scissors kick in the sidestroke sense. It's an
exaggerated flutter kick, although flutter isn't the right term. The legs
aren't bent, as they are in the sidestroke kick. Where I use it is in open
water swimming in the ocean, to rise up to get my bearings.

I went back and looked at the photos. There are pictures of someone doing
the trudgen and the legs are definitely bent at the knees in the kick
portion.

Besides, with the head and shoulders out of the water, you couldn't achieve
a flutter kick at all. The men I see doing this are turning to one side
(usually the right) in an effort to breathe, and when they turn, their legs
automatically bend. Maybe the legs bend in the effort of turning the
shoulders. Try turning to one side in bed sometime. I'll bet your legs bend
automatically at the knees.

Pat in TX

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, according to "American Red Cross Swimming and Diving" published in
1938, the scissors kick associated with the sidestroke is integral to the
trudgen stroke and always has been. Not only that, but they used a lot
fewer commas in that day!

I've seen the kick he is describing and used it, if I understand him
correctly. It isn't a scissors kick in the sidestroke sense. It's an
exaggerated flutter kick, although flutter isn't the right term. The legs
aren't bent, as they are in the sidestroke kick. Where I use it is in open
water swimming in the ocean, to rise up to get my bearings.

I went back and looked at the photos. There are pictures of someone doing
the trudgen and the legs are definitely bent at the knees in the kick
portion.

Besides, with the head and shoulders out of the water, you couldn't achieve
a flutter kick at all. The men I see doing this are turning to one side
(usually the right) in an effort to breathe, and when they turn, their legs
automatically bend. Maybe the legs bend in the effort of turning the
shoulders. Try turning to one side in bed sometime. I'll bet your legs bend
automatically at the knees.

We're talking at cross purposes. There is the trudgeon, and there is the
stroke the natives were doing, and there is sidestroke. I've seen all
three, although I've only seen the native's stroke in old movies, so it
might not be the same stroke Trudgen saw. My point is that all three are
different. They are three different strokes.

You can use flutter kick with head and shoulders out of the water. See
it in water polo, for example. But, as I tried to explain, I don't mean
the natives used a flutter kick. It was an exaggerated kick that was
more like the kick scuba divers use, but not exactly.

The men you see are probably doing the trudgeon, not the stroke the
natives were doing, and not the stroke open water swimmers use to get
their bearings.