Thoughts on braking

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

...

Quoted message said:

"Use both brakes whenever slowing or stopping

To stop, the hands and feet work together in a coordinated and smooth fashion. Squeeze the clutch
and the front brake lever while pressing on the rear brake pedal and downshifting to first gear.
The front brake provides around 70% of the stopping power for your motorcycle.

Probably approximately true for bicycles as well. I normally use both brakes, too, and for the exact
reason they mention below. When I had a motorcycle, I did it that way as well.

Quoted message said:

Both brakes should be applied at the same time when stopping. Even though the full braking
potential of each wheel may not be required for normal, planned stops, it is important to develop
the habit of using both brakes so that your reflexes will be ready to respond quickly and properly
when an emergency situation occurs."

they even have a diagram:

<http://www.msf-usa.org/CourseReview/assets/RiderHandbook_27_1.gif>

In light of all of this I make a few observations & questions

1) Those big Flying Pigeons or Dutch roadsters, with only coaster brakes, were probably never
intended to go very fast at all. My braking distance with only a rear coaster was scary, and
my ability to brake depended largely on where my feet were in the pedal stroke. unnerving.
[and I'm not very fast--the messengers and a lot of commuters, indeed, at at least one little
girl can all beat me, speedwise]

2) Is there some sort of maximum speed, or some other purely physical limit to front-brake only
braking? Why do the motorcycle guys recommend two-brake braking? [this will probably require
me to do some tests when I go home, with the assistance of my science-minded younger brother]

The physical limit on front-wheel braking is simply when you lock it up and either go over the
handlebars, or crash because of not being able to steer any more. Which happens depends on the
weight distribution (center of gravity) of your bike, and the traction between your front wheel and
the ground.

Quoted message said:

3) If trail riders don't use their front brakes much--as my friend, who was a sometime MTBer,
seems to allege--why do I see so many front-wheel disk brakes?

I think most of them, especially the better/faster ones do use both, because they will need that
extra stopping power to decelerate faster before a corner to avoid losing time in a race.

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.

Quoted message said:

3) If trail riders don't use their front brakes much--as my friend, who was a sometime MTBer,
seems to allege--why do I see so many front-wheel disk brakes?

If you think of your weight distribution on the bike, the rear wheel can lock and you can carry on
slowing down, whilst if the front wheel locks you are over the bars.

As a result the front brake is far more effective a stopping mechanism provided you don't lock it
up. Obviously using both brakes at once is going to stop you faster than using just one, though I
suspect that in average MTB riding use, you use mostly the front brake when braking hard. 70% sounds
realistic.

What is often the case on a MTB is that you use the rear brake for tactical manoevres - for example
to control your line of attack in a sharp corner. Try doing that with the front brake and you will
find that it slides underneath you and you stack.

My suspicion is that either your friend hasn't ridden without a front brake, or he doesn't ride
very hard.

Regards,

John

Luigi de Guzman said:

2) Is there some sort of maximum speed, or some other purely physical limit to front-brake only
braking? Why do the motorcycle guys recommend two-brake braking? [this will probably require
me to do

I suspect that the additional weight and weight distribution of motorcycles makes the rear brake
more useful. Additionally, it could well be law in some states that motorcyclists must use both.

On top of all that, the nature of motorcycles AFAIK is that they just don't require as much
technique, though it certainly seems that they _would_.

Quoted message said:

3) If trail riders don't use their front brakes much--as my friend, who was a sometime MTBer,
seems to allege--why do I see so many front-wheel disk brakes?

How the hell does he get any braking accomplished on loose dirt and mud and rocks and whatever else,
using only the rear brake?

Aside from not being able to control his bike, he must tear up the trails to no end.

I rarely use my rear brake; but my reflexes don't forget it in a panic stop, either, whether on my
road bike or my MTB.

Quoted message said:

-Luigi

--
Rick Onanian

Luigi de Guzman wrote: [....]

Quoted message said:

Both brakes should be applied at the same time when stopping. Even though the full braking
potential of each wheel may not be required for normal, planned stops, it is important to develop
the habit of using both brakes so that your reflexes will be ready to respond quickly and properly
when an emergency situation occurs."

they even have a diagram:

<http://www.msf-usa.org/CourseReview/assets/RiderHandbook_27_1.gif>

[...]

Oh dear, not more of this nonsense.

Disclamer: The following discussion is carried out in the context of braking on regular, clean, dry,
level, road surface in a straight line, for the purpose of decelerating from a given velocity to
zero velocity in the shortest distance possible.

Assuming the front tyre has enough traction to not skid before the pitch-over point (reasonable
assumption IMO). Maximal braking is at the pitch-over point where your rear wheel is just about to
leave the ground, and cannot possibly contribute any significant amount of braking.

Hence at max. braking your rear brake contributes little more than a skidding rear wheel, helping
you on your way to losing control.

Dani

The fact that your friend "does mostly trail riding" is the clue to his answer . Dirt offers
questionable traction at best. so braking can very easily initiate a slide. Which wheel would you
prefer to skid, front or rear (if in doubt, ask Jan Ullrich...).

As for the motorcycle answer "use both", only thing I can say is a motorcycle weighs a few
more grams than a bicycle. so they may get more out of the rear than us. I dont motor, so I
can only guess.

But the fact remains, when you decelerate a bicycle, inertia, that thing that makes moving objects
wish to remain moving, will transfer 80-90% of your weight onto the front wheel. So that's where
most of your braking force will be, as your experience illustrates.

This assumes dry, clean pavement (or rock, if off road), of course.

May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>, Luigi de Guzman
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[front brake]

Quoted message said:

Then, out of curiosity, I went to see what our fossil-fueled brothers on motorbikes have to say
about braking. They say to brake with both at the same time:

[quote from MSF]

Quoted message said:

1) Those big Flying Pigeons or Dutch roadsters, with only coaster brakes, were probably never
intended to go very fast at all. My braking distance with only a rear coaster was scary, and my
ability to brake depended largely on where my feet were in the pedal stroke. unnerving. [and
I'm not very fast--the messengers and a lot of commuters, indeed, at at least one little girl
can all beat me, speedwise]

Early motorcycles had only one brake, the rear, as well.

Quoted message said:

2) Is there some sort of maximum speed, or some other purely physical limit to front-brake only
braking?

Yes, the point at which you flip the bike over forwards.

Quoted message said:

Why do the motorcycle guys
recommend two-brake braking?

This is the MSF you are quoting. They are there to teach beginning riders how to ride. Beginning
riders, and riders who learned improperly, are like your friend: they are afraid of the front brake.
There is even an old myth among motorcyclists that the front brake will "flip you right over". But
on a motorcycle the front brake is even more important than it is on a bicycle.

Motorcycle road racers often use only the front brake. Most of those that use the rear use it
more for suspension-related reasons that are not applicable to bicycles and are too complicated
to explain.

A good motorcycle road racer will, at the point of maximum braking into an approaching corner, have
essentially zero weight on the rear. Gary Nixon was famous for having his rear wheel in the air on
the approach to every corner.

Quoted message said:

3) If trail riders don't use their front brakes much--as my friend, who was a sometime MTBer,
seems to allege--why do I see so many front-wheel disk brakes?

Your friend is wrong. Front brakes are important for off-road riding as well.

Eric

I have a MTB. When on pavement, I use both brakes but mostly the rear brake when on flat and not
going to fast. When going faster, the rear brake alone is not enough. It will block because the
weigt gets transfered to the front. Once the rear is blocked, the rear brake is not that efficient
anymore. When on a Cross Country trail, you have to use both brakes when you go down. The slopes are
much stiffer than on the street or bike path. In addition, the ground (soil, sand, mud, rocks etc)
provides far less traction than pavement. It is very easy to block your rear wheel in which case it
makes the rear brake even more inefficient than on pavement. So the trick is to use the front brake
as much as you can without blocking the front wheel which would result in a nice dive over the
handle bars with good chances of having the bike landing on top of you. Also, you'd try to transfer
your weight to the rear and low by moving a little behind your saddle. MTB without front
brake...never. The disc brakes, in addition of having a better braking power, don't get dirty as
easy as the rims do. When you ride through several inches of mud and water, it takes some time
before the rims clean up.

Paul Bielec said:

The disc brakes, in addition of having a better braking power, don't get dirty as easy as the rims
do. When you ride through several inches of mud and water, it takes some time before the rims
clean up.

...and if your rims are the least bit out of true, or if your brakes are adjusted very close, then
you get terrible, horrible scraping noises (while not applying the brake) which are so loud they are
not only embarassing but distracting too.

That's the main reason I'd like disc brakes for my MTB; I like to keep my V brakes adjusted very
close, but they sure get loud when the rim gets muddy.

--
Rick Onanian

Luigi de Guzman said:

1) Those big Flying Pigeons or Dutch roadsters, with only coaster brakes,

Not sure about the Dutch, but the Flying Pigeons have no coaster brakes. They use rod-operated
brakes which are next to useless.

Todd Kuzma

In article said:

Luigi de Guzman said:

2) Is there some sort of maximum speed, or some other purely physical limit to front-brake only
braking? Why do the motorcycle guys recommend two-brake braking? [this will probably require
me to do

I suspect that the additional weight and weight distribution of motorcycles makes the rear brake
more useful.

It depends on the motorcycle. Long low Harleys put more weight on the rear wheel than short
sport bikes.

Quoted message said:

Additionally, it could well be law in some states that motorcyclists must use both.

It could be, but it's not. Most states do require front and rear brakes on bikes older than a
certain age, but there's no laws about using them.

Quoted message said:

On top of all that, the nature of motorcycles AFAIK is that they just don't require as much
technique, though it certainly seems that they _would_.

They require more skill in order to go fast. A strong bicyclist can be fast even with poor
technique.. whatever they lose on technical descents they make up into the wind or up hills. With
motorcycles, unless we are talking straight line speed, it's all up to the skill of the rider.

Of course there are lots of motorcyclists who are the equivalent of bicyclists who tootle along the
bike path on a sunday.

Eric

"asqui" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Luigi de Guzman wrote: [....]

Quoted message said:

Both brakes should be applied at the same time when stopping. Even though the full braking
potential of each wheel may not be required for normal, planned stops, it is important to
develop the habit of using both brakes so that your reflexes will be ready to respond quickly
and properly when an emergency situation occurs."

they even have a diagram:

<http://www.msf-usa.org/CourseReview/assets/RiderHandbook_27_1.gif>

[...]

Oh dear, not more of this nonsense.

Disclamer: The following discussion is carried out in the context of braking on regular, clean,
dry, level, road surface in a straight line, for the purpose of decelerating from a given velocity
to zero velocity in the shortest distance possible.

Assuming the front tyre has enough traction to not skid before the pitch-over point (reasonable
assumption IMO). Maximal braking is at the pitch-over point where your rear wheel is just about to
leave the ground, and cannot possibly contribute any significant amount of braking.

Hence at max. braking your rear brake contributes little more than a skidding rear wheel, helping
you on your way to losing control.

Dani

I'm not disputing your statement. what I'm asking is--if front-wheel only braking is maximal, why do
the motorcycle guys say to use both brakes? Especially considering their maximum speeds are much
higher than ours...

It looks like I'm going to have to perform experiments.

-Luigi

"Luigi de Guzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"asqui" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Luigi de Guzman wrote: [....]

Quoted message said:

Both brakes should be applied at the same time when stopping. Even though the full braking
potential of each wheel may not be required for normal, planned stops, it is important to
develop the habit of using both brakes so that your reflexes will be ready to respond quickly
and properly when an emergency situation occurs."

they even have a diagram:

<http://www.msf-usa.org/CourseReview/assets/RiderHandbook_27_1.gif>

[...]

Oh dear, not more of this nonsense.

Disclamer: The following discussion is carried out in the context of

braking

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on regular, clean, dry, level, road surface in a straight line, for the purpose of decelerating
from a given velocity to zero velocity in the shortest distance possible.

Assuming the front tyre has enough traction to not skid before the pitch-over point (reasonable
assumption IMO). Maximal braking is at the pitch-over point where your rear wheel is just about
to leave the

ground,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and cannot possibly contribute any significant amount of braking.

Hence at max. braking your rear brake contributes little more than a skidding rear wheel,
helping you on your way to losing control.

Dani

I'm not disputing your statement. what I'm asking is--if front-wheel only braking is maximal, why
do the motorcycle guys say to use both brakes? Especially considering their maximum speeds are
much higher than ours...

It looks like I'm going to have to perform experiments.

-Luigi

If you watch the road racer-types on Speedvision, you'll notice that they usually don't use the rear
brake at all. AFAIK, the rear wheel slides you see are the result of downshifting, not braking.

I remember hearing something about one of the motorcycle guys that actually used to lock up his
FRONT wheel (momentarily) right before the corner. Can't remember exactly what his explanation was,
but it was pretty ballsy.

I ride with some new-er mtn riders. They are scared [censored] about "using the front brake and going
over the bars." Lent one of them my C-dale last night for his night ride and he as much as told me
he didn't use the front brake 'cause he didn't want to crash. Idiot. Oh well.

Mike

"Luigi de Guzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"asqui" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I'm not disputing your statement. what I'm asking is--if front-wheel only braking is maximal, why
do the motorcycle guys say to use both brakes? Especially considering their maximum speeds are
much higher than ours...

It looks like I'm going to have to perform experiments.

-Luigi

I'm a motorcycle guy and I'm telling you I rarely use the rear brake. When I'm braking heavily the
rear wheel will actually be in the air part of the time. The rear brake does very little at maximum
braking, other than give you something else to worry about. At more moderate stopping pressures the
rear brake can contribute to braking proportionate to the weight that's on the rear tire. At the
racetrack I never touch the rear brake. On the street, I use it occasionally when it's wet out and
to hold my bike still at stop lights..that's about it.

Cheers,

Scott..

"John Appleby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My suspicion is that either your friend hasn't ridden without a front

brake,

Quoted message said:

or he doesn't ride very hard.

I don't ride all that hard and I still can't imagine never using the front brake. I have tested
stopping with just one brake or the other and the front brake always seems to do a better job. It is
a lot easier to lock up the back brake on most bikes I have owned.

In article <[email hidden]>, luigi12081 @cox.net says...

...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Assuming the front tyre has enough traction to not skid before the pitch-over point (reasonable
assumption IMO). Maximal braking is at the pitch-over point where your rear wheel is just about
to leave the ground, and cannot possibly contribute any significant amount of braking.

Hence at max. braking your rear brake contributes little more than a skidding rear wheel,
helping you on your way to losing control.

Dani

I'm not disputing your statement. what I'm asking is--if front-wheel only braking is maximal, why
do the motorcycle guys say to use both brakes? Especially considering their maximum speeds are
much higher than ours...

Because at normal braking rates, you can get good stopping power from the rears (on both bikes and
motorcycles). It's only at near-maximal braking that the rears become useless.

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

As one who has ridden both a bike and motorcycle, let me tell you that only using the rear brake is
near suicide. When the rear brake locks up, the friction (stopping) force drops to near zero. What
this means is that there is less resistance from the locked (skidding) rear wheel than from the
rolling front wheel. As a consequence the rear wheel will come around bringing you into a classic
sideways skid. I know this unfortunate experience. On the other hand if you brake hard on the front
wheel, the rear will just roll behind it, keeping in a straight line (assuming you do not brake hard
enough to endo).

If there was a choice between braking with the rear wheel or the front, the front is the answer.
The correct move is to first apply the front, followed rapidly by the rear. Control the pressure on
each brake so as to prevent wheel lock, and stop in a straight line. Don't forget that a locked
wheel provides no gyroscopic force to keep you upright. HTH. Ernie

Luigi de Guzman said:

So i've got to get to the library and return books. Somewhere in the middle of the City, in
crowded stop-and-go traffic, my front brake cable snaps. apply my rear coaster brake (yuk). Limp
to the library, return books, get bike to shop where a shopdude fits me up with new cable for GBP
1.80. great.

I observe from my brief trip without a front brake that I am more or less utterly dependent on it.
it's very hard for me to imagine riding without one. And yet when I got back to my room, I had an
interesting AIM conversation with a friend fo mine from home:

"you mean you use your *front* brake?" he said, somewhat incredulous. "I never use my
front brake."

I explain all the usual things--quote sheldon brown and my own experience, tell him to watch the
beloki crash film again. but he persists. "Besides, all of my riding has been trail-riding, and I
hardly ever use my front brake there."

A statement I found very hard to believe.

Then, out of curiosity, I went to see what our fossil-fueled brothers on motorbikes have to say
about braking. They say to brake with both at the same time:

"Use both brakes whenever slowing or stopping

To stop, the hands and feet work together in a coordinated and smooth fashion. Squeeze the clutch
and the front brake lever while pressing on the rear brake pedal and downshifting to first gear.
The front brake provides around 70% of the stopping power for your motorcycle.

Both brakes should be applied at the same time when stopping. Even though the full braking
potential of each wheel may not be required for normal, planned stops, it is important to develop
the habit of using both brakes so that your reflexes will be ready to respond quickly and properly
when an emergency situation occurs."

they even have a diagram:

<http://www.msf-usa.org/CourseReview/assets/RiderHandbook_27_1.gif>

In light of all of this I make a few observations & questions

1) Those big Flying Pigeons or Dutch roadsters, with only coaster brakes, were probably never
intended to go very fast at all. My braking distance with only a rear coaster was scary, and
my ability to brake depended largely on where my feet were in the pedal stroke. unnerving.
[and I'm not very fast--the messengers and a lot of commuters, indeed, at at least one little
girl can all beat me, speedwise]

2) Is there some sort of maximum speed, or some other purely physical limit to front-brake only
braking? Why do the motorcycle guys recommend two-brake braking? [this will probably require
me to do some tests when I go home, with the assistance of my science-minded younger brother]

3) If trail riders don't use their front brakes much--as my friend, who was a sometime MTBer,
seems to allege--why do I see so many front-wheel disk brakes?

-Luigi

[email hidden] (Luigi de Guzman) wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I had an interesting AIM conversation with a friend fo mine from home:

"you mean you use your *front* brake?" he said, somewhat incredulous. "I never use my
front brake."

I explain all the usual things--quote sheldon brown and my own experience, tell him to watch the
beloki crash film again. but he persists. "Besides, all of my riding has been trail-riding, and I
hardly ever use my front brake there."

interesting.

im a new mtn biker, i suppose. i built myself a zero dollar singlespeed out of discarded parts from
the shop i work at, and an old 'tunturi' frame (which i hear is a maker of exercise bikes 😉

until now, i have been a road rider throguh and through. i ride mostly fixed, and almost always
without a rear brake. when with a rear brake, i rarely use it, and even then mostly to give me
something else to do when im bored.

however, when i took up this new offroad hobby, i suddenly loved the rear brake. i wouldnt go so far
as to say i never use the front, but it just doesnt seem appropraite a lot of the time. as fast as i
am going, on a rigid fork, with all the rocks and roots and mud, the front seems to need all the
traction and bounce it can get without me trying to brake with it. ive skidded the front a few
times, not an experience i am used to for day to day road riding, and i do almost all my speed
modulation with the rear now. just seems like its cutting it too close with the front.

then again, the few places ive been riding this beast around dont have much in the way of
straightaways, and the surface is loose. ymmv.

i guess my point is that even a person who is (hopefully) skilled in the use of the front brake
might see fit to lay on the rear for offroad. then again, it might just be my inexperience. time
will tell.

Quoted message said:

If there was a choice between braking with the rear wheel or the front,
the front is the answer. The correct move is to first apply the front,
followed rapidly by the rear. Control the pressure on each brake so as to

Other way around. Braking the rear causes the (full) suspension on a road moto to settle,
lengthening the wheelbase and lowering the CG. Then apply the front.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted message said:

Motorcycle road racers often use only the front brake. Most of those that use the rear use it more
for suspension-related reasons that are not applicable to bicycles and are too complicated to
explain.

Not really. They use, as you say, the rear to lower the bike overall and lower the CG. It's easy
to visualize. Oftentimes (such as in MotoGP) it's used AGAINST the throttle to control the amount
of thrust.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training