Time bicycles

Arthur Ogus said:

I'm beginning to consider buying a new bicycle, something I seem to do
every fifteen years or so. (My first bike was a Raleigh International,
which I quickly swapped for a Raleigh Pro in 1976, then I bought a
Lemond Titanium in about 1993). So far I've tested two bikes, and
really liked the Time. But I'm something of a traditinalist, and am
worried about the Time's "integrated headset." Chris King explains why
these aren't a good idea, but I'm not sure if Time's headset is
"integrated" or "internal," or something
else altogether. Can anyone shed light on this, and/or comment on Time
bicycles in general? I'm tempted by the VXS, but the model I rode was
an Edge First, I think.

Short answer: Integrated and internal headsets both suffer from
nonstandardization syndrome; if you plan to own such a bike for the
long term, resign yourself to either buying a spare headset now, while
they're available, or plan on doing some leg work to find a way to
adapt something else when the current one fails[1]. If you have never
had a headset fail in the past, I would not take that as any predictor
of the durability of the integrated and internal units presently being
fitted; the old technology was proven over a century of widespread
use, while some of the new ones may have mere months of prototype
behind them instead.

Personally, for long-term use, I'd shop for a bike that does not use
unproven tech.

[1] Even if you buy a replacement now, that doesn't mean that you'll
be covered in the case of a failure; as noted on the Chris King
website when I first looked into this, some of the nonstandard
headsets have questionable mounting arrangements which may lead to
difficulties in service replacement due to the possibility that the
head tube may be damaged or worn by the time the headset failure has
preogressed to the point that repairs are attempted.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
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Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

Arthur Ogus said:

Short answer: Integrated and internal headsets both suffer from
nonstandardization syndrome; if you plan to own such a bike for the
long term, resign yourself to either buying a spare headset now, while
they're available, or plan on doing some leg work to find a way to
adapt something else when the current one fails[1]. If you have never
had a headset fail in the past, I would not take that as any predictor
of the durability of the integrated and internal units presently being
fitted; the old technology was proven over a century of widespread
use, while some of the new ones may have mere months of prototype
behind them instead.
Personally, for long-term use, I'd shop for a bike that does not use
unproven tech.
[1] Even if you buy a replacement now, that doesn't mean that you'll
be covered in the case of a failure; as noted on the Chris King
website when I first looked into this, some of the nonstandard
headsets have questionable mounting arrangements which may lead to
difficulties in service replacement due to the possibility that the
head tube may be damaged or worn by the time the headset failure has
preogressed to the point that repairs are attempted.

indeed, I've had to replace at least one, probably two, Campy headsets
over the years, and in particular I'm now riding a Chris King headset.
This is pretty much what I'm afraid of. But I wonder if anyone has
more specific information about the Time system itself, and if it might
be more repairable than
other designs. Here is a link to its techical service manual, but I don't have
enough expertise to evaluate it. Also, I wonder if a Campagnolo internal
headset can be used on a Time frame? BTW the entry level model Time
doesn't use a Time Quickset headset, but rather an Aheadset. I used to avoid
these too, in the old days.

http://www.time-sport.com/pdf/not/quickset.pdf

Evidently Calfee uses standard headsets, but the geometry of the Calfee
didn't seem to fit me as well as that of the Time.

Werehatrack said:

Short answer: Integrated and internal headsets both suffer from
nonstandardization syndrome; if you plan to own such a bike for the
long term, resign yourself to either buying a spare headset now, while
they're available, or plan on doing some leg work to find a way to
adapt something else when the current one fails[1]. If you have never
had a headset fail in the past, I would not take that as any predictor
of the durability of the integrated and internal units presently being
fitted; the old technology was proven over a century of widespread
use, while some of the new ones may have mere months of prototype
behind them instead.
Personally, for long-term use, I'd shop for a bike that does not use
unproven tech.
[1] Even if you buy a replacement now, that doesn't mean that you'll
be covered in the case of a failure; as noted on the Chris King
website when I first looked into this, some of the nonstandard
headsets have questionable mounting arrangements which may lead to
difficulties in service replacement due to the possibility that the
head tube may be damaged or worn by the time the headset failure has
preogressed to the point that repairs are attempted

Indeed

Arthur Ogus said:

I'm beginning to consider buying a new bicycle, something I seem to do
every fifteen years or so. (My first bike was a Raleigh International,
which I quickly swapped for a Raleigh Pro in 1976, then I bought a
Lemond Titanium in about 1993). So far I've tested two bikes, and
really liked the Time. But I'm something of a traditinalist, and am
worried about the Time's "integrated headset." Chris King explains why
these aren't a good idea, but I'm not sure if Time's headset is
"integrated" or "internal," or something
else altogether. Can anyone shed light on this, and/or comment on Time
bicycles in general? I'm tempted by the VXS, but the model I rode was
an Edge First, I think.

Thanks.

Go to a shop that sells Parlee...uses the old style HS, as well.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Arthur Ogus said:

I'm beginning to consider buying a new bicycle, something I seem to do
every fifteen years or so. (My first bike was a Raleigh International,
which I quickly swapped for a Raleigh Pro in 1976, then I bought a
Lemond Titanium in about 1993). So far I've tested two bikes, and
really liked the Time. But I'm something of a traditinalist, and am
worried about the Time's "integrated headset." Chris King explains why
these aren't a good idea, but I'm not sure if Time's headset is
"integrated" or "internal," or something
else altogether. Can anyone shed light on this, and/or comment on Time
bicycles in general? I'm tempted by the VXS, but the model I rode was
an Edge First, I think.

Thanks.

Go to a shop that sells Parlee...uses the old style HS, as well.

Thanks. I haven't seen any local shops that sell Parlee, but there
is one that sells Calfee, which also uses traditional headsets.
I rode one, but didn't like its handling as much as the Time. This could
well be because the Calfee was too big for me, whereas the Time was a very
good fit. (I'm quite small, and it's very hard for me to find frames to test.)
The Time has slacker angles and a longer top tube than the Calfee in
comparable sizes, and I think this is good for me. I'm really reluctant to
commit to a custom frame before I know if I will like the way a bike will feel.

I notice that Campagnolo also makes internal headsets, and I wonder if
one of these could be used in a Time frame. Or a Look frame. Does
anyone know?

Arthur Ogus said:

I'm beginning to consider buying a new bicycle, something I seem to do
every fifteen years or so. (My first bike was a Raleigh International,
which I quickly swapped for a Raleigh Pro in 1976, then I bought a
Lemond Titanium in about 1993). So far I've tested two bikes, and
really liked the Time. But I'm something of a traditinalist, and am
worried about the Time's "integrated headset." Chris King explains why
these aren't a good idea, but I'm not sure if Time's headset is
"integrated" or "internal," or something
else altogether. Can anyone shed light on this, and/or comment on Time
bicycles in general? I'm tempted by the VXS, but the model I rode was
an Edge First, I think.

Thanks.

i've used integrated headsets for some time. the only one that's
presented any problem was one where the head tube was unsleeved - the
bearing cartridge was direct on the aluminum head tube. provided
there's a hard sleeve between the bearing and the tube, there's no issue
with integrated headsets - there's no difference between a cartridge
bearing and a properly sleeved head tube and a cartridge bearing and a
headset insert.

conclusion: buy the frame you like - and enjoy with confidence.

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 10:32:27 -0800, jim beam <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

i've used integrated headsets for some time. the only one that's
presented any problem was one where the head tube was unsleeved - the
bearing cartridge was direct on the aluminum head tube. provided
there's a hard sleeve between the bearing and the tube, there's no issue
with integrated headsets - there's no difference between a cartridge
bearing and a properly sleeved head tube and a cartridge bearing and a
headset insert.

Well, apart from the standardisation issue. And the fact that you can't
generally replace that sleeve like you can the headset cups if something
does happen, be it impact, poor maintenance, or otherwise.

Jasper

jim beam said:

Arthur Ogus said:

I'm beginning to consider buying a new bicycle, something I seem to do
every fifteen years or so. (My first bike was a Raleigh International,
which I quickly swapped for a Raleigh Pro in 1976, then I bought a
Lemond Titanium in about 1993). So far I've tested two bikes, and
really liked the Time. But I'm something of a traditinalist, and am
worried about the Time's "integrated headset." Chris King explains why
these aren't a good idea, but I'm not sure if Time's headset is
"integrated" or "internal," or something
else altogether. Can anyone shed light on this, and/or comment on Time
bicycles in general? I'm tempted by the VXS, but the model I rode was
an Edge First, I think.

Thanks.

i've used integrated headsets for some time. the only one that's
presented any problem was one where the head tube was unsleeved - the
bearing cartridge was direct on the aluminum head tube. provided
there's a hard sleeve between the bearing and the tube, there's no issue
with integrated headsets - there's no difference between a cartridge
bearing and a properly sleeved head tube and a cartridge bearing and a
headset insert.

conclusion: buy the frame you like - and enjoy with confidence.

Well, what must be mentioned is propriatary bearings made for specific
HS'..Like the Schwinn FasBac, where it was intergrated and one of a
kind. When Schwinn went to Pacific, design changed and those bearings
were no longer made.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

jim beam said:

Arthur Ogus said:

I'm beginning to consider buying a new bicycle, something I seem to do
every fifteen years or so. (My first bike was a Raleigh International,
which I quickly swapped for a Raleigh Pro in 1976, then I bought a
Lemond Titanium in about 1993). So far I've tested two bikes, and
really liked the Time. But I'm something of a traditinalist, and am
worried about the Time's "integrated headset." Chris King explains why
these aren't a good idea, but I'm not sure if Time's headset is
"integrated" or "internal," or something
else altogether. Can anyone shed light on this, and/or comment on Time
bicycles in general? I'm tempted by the VXS, but the model I rode was
an Edge First, I think.

Thanks.

i've used integrated headsets for some time. the only one that's
presented any problem was one where the head tube was unsleeved - the
bearing cartridge was direct on the aluminum head tube. provided
there's a hard sleeve between the bearing and the tube, there's no issue
with integrated headsets - there's no difference between a cartridge
bearing and a properly sleeved head tube and a cartridge bearing and a
headset insert.

conclusion: buy the frame you like - and enjoy with confidence.

Well, what must be mentioned is propriatary bearings made for specific
HS'..Like the Schwinn FasBac, where it was intergrated and one of a
kind. When Schwinn went to Pacific, design changed and those bearings
were no longer made.

IIRC, the FSA and Campy Integrated headsets use off the shelf bearings.

D'ohBoy

D'ohBoy said:

IIRC, the FSA and Campy Integrated headsets use off the shelf bearings.

Yes, but I don't know if these can be used in place of a Time Quickset
Headset.
The latter seems to be a good design, but I'm certainly no expert.
Time is a pretty stable company, but ......

Any comments on Time bicycles in general?

Quoted message said:

D'ohBoy

D'ohBoy said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

jim beam said:

Arthur Ogus wrote:
> I'm beginning to consider buying a new bicycle, something I seem to do
> every fifteen years or so. (My first bike was a Raleigh International,
> which I quickly swapped for a Raleigh Pro in 1976, then I bought a
> Lemond Titanium in about 1993). So far I've tested two bikes, and
> really liked the Time. But I'm something of a traditinalist, and am
> worried about the Time's "integrated headset." Chris King explains why
> these aren't a good idea, but I'm not sure if Time's headset is
> "integrated" or "internal," or something
> else altogether. Can anyone shed light on this, and/or comment on Time
> bicycles in general? I'm tempted by the VXS, but the model I rode was
> an Edge First, I think.
>
> Thanks.
>
i've used integrated headsets for some time. the only one that's
presented any problem was one where the head tube was unsleeved - the
bearing cartridge was direct on the aluminum head tube. provided
there's a hard sleeve between the bearing and the tube, there's no issue
with integrated headsets - there's no difference between a cartridge
bearing and a properly sleeved head tube and a cartridge bearing and a
headset insert.

conclusion: buy the frame you like - and enjoy with confidence.

Well, what must be mentioned is propriatary bearings made for specific
HS'..Like the Schwinn FasBac, where it was intergrated and one of a
kind. When Schwinn went to Pacific, design changed and those bearings
were no longer made.

IIRC, the FSA and Campy Integrated headsets use off the shelf bearings.

D'ohBoy

Campagnolo use loose balls,not even a cart bearing. It's unlikely that
Campag would stop making the slide in races, but if they do, nothing
now around replaces these Campag parts.

Anything about a frame that is unique, can only use one HS, or 1 BB or
1 anything I think is a bad idea. Having to replace an entire frame
becasue a small component part wears out is poor design, IMO.

Peter Chisholm said:

...
Anything about a frame that is unique, can only use one HS, or 1 BB or
1 anything I think is a bad idea. Having to replace an entire frame
becasue a small component part wears out is poor design, IMO.

butbutbut, the bike will be out of fashion and no longer look good at
the coffee shop three blocks from the rider's house by the time the
integrated headset wears out.

Where is Fabrizio Mazzoleni when we need him?

--
Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!

Johnny Sunset said:

Peter Chisholm said:

...
Anything about a frame that is unique, can only use one HS, or 1 BB or
1 anything I think is a bad idea. Having to replace an entire frame
becasue a small component part wears out is poor design, IMO.

butbutbut, the bike will be out of fashion and no longer look good at
the coffee shop three blocks from the rider's house by the time the
integrated headset wears out.

Where is Fabrizio Mazzoleni when we need him?

Both my old bikes still look great, fashion or no.
(I have a Raleigh Pro from the 70's and a LeMonde Titanium from the 90's).
I'm hoping that my next bike will last as long as they have but will
fit me better.
The Time has a lifetime warranty and comes in many sizes.

Time says the Campagnolo integrated headset cannot be used in place
of their proprietary design, but they also insist that there design won't wear
out anything in the frame. However if something catostrophic happens (?)
it can be repaired, although perhaps not by the LBS.

I'm still curious if anone can say anything specific about Time's headset,
or about their bikes in general.

"Arthur Ogus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:2006112919535716807-arthurogusnopam@maccom...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Time says the Campagnolo integrated headset cannot be used in place
of their proprietary design, but they also insist that there design won't

wear

Quoted message said:

out anything in the frame. However if something catostrophic happens (?)
it can be repaired, although perhaps not by the LBS.

I'm still curious if anone can say anything specific about Time's headset,
or about their bikes in general.

When you buy the bike try to buy spare headset(s) if you are uncertain about
the availability in the future. Maintain the bike well and hope nothing
catostrophic happens. That's all you can do.

Lou

"Arthur Ogus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:2006112820400816807-arthurogusnopam@maccom...

Quoted message said:

D'ohBoy said:

IIRC, the FSA and Campy Integrated headsets use off the shelf bearings.

Yes, but I don't know if these can be used in place of a Time Quickset
Headset.
The latter seems to be a good design, but I'm certainly no expert.
Time is a pretty stable company, but ......

Any comments on Time bicycles in general?

Quoted message said:

D'ohBoy

I am shopping for Time Edge First too so I have done a little research. It
seems that it is a good brand but very overpriced due to being Made in
France and due to the "badge" factor. But I am told they are well made and
ride well even at the bottom of their range. But for the same money you can
get more if you shop around - provided the other bike geometry suits you.

Time has relatively slack seat tube (STA) and head tube (HTA) angles which
will appeal to some and not to others. It also has relatively normal top
tube length, about 5-8mm shorter than most others in same size. This may or
may not appeal.

Their slack STA is the main reason I am looking at Time, a 73 degree STA is
rare in main-stream off-the-shelf frame in size 53-54cm frame. 73.5-74 is
more typical today for medium size frame, 53-55cm.

I have a 74 STA Madone right now and despite a 35mm set-back seat-post I
still can not get far enough behind the BB for comfort. So 1 degree gets me
about 10mm further back.

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:42:16 +0100, "Lou Holtman" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

When you buy the bike try to buy spare headset(s) if you are uncertain about
the availability in the future. Maintain the bike well and hope nothing
catostrophic happens. That's all you can do.

At the very least, if you have a spare, you have several years to find the
next replacement on ebay.

Jasper

My impression was that the Time's are fairly reasonable at the Edge level,
but the price goes up very fast as you move up the range. I had wanted
to get a VSX but they are discontinued for 2007---only the integrated
seat tube and post version is being made. I'm looking at last year's models.
They are being offered at a small discount at some places,
eg. Wrench Science. (This is local for me, but they are mostly
an internet dealer. They seem very good.)

RoadCyclist said:

I am shopping for Time Edge First too so I have done a little research.
It seems that it is a good brand but very overpriced due to being Made
in France and due to the "badge" factor. But I am told they are well
made and ride well even at the bottom of their range. But for the same
money you can get more if you shop around - provided the other bike
geometry suits you.

Time has relatively slack seat tube (STA) and head tube (HTA) angles
which will appeal to some and not to others. It also has relatively
normal top tube length, about 5-8mm shorter than most others in same
size. This may or may not appeal.

Their slack STA is the main reason I am looking at Time, a 73 degree
STA is rare in main-stream off-the-shelf frame in size 53-54cm frame.
73.5-74 is more typical today for medium size frame, 53-55cm.

I have a 74 STA Madone right now and despite a 35mm set-back seat-post
I still can not get far enough behind the BB for comfort. So 1 degree
gets me about 10mm further back.

"Arthur Ogus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:2006120207555816807-arthurogusnopam@maccom...

Quoted message said:

My impression was that the Time's are fairly reasonable at the Edge level,
but the price goes up very fast as you move up the range. I had wanted
to get a VSX but they are discontinued for 2007---only the integrated
seat tube and post version is being made. I'm looking at last year's
models.
They are being offered at a small discount at some places,
eg. Wrench Science. (This is local for me, but they are mostly
an internet dealer. They seem very good.)

On 2006-12-01 20:30:56 -0800, "RoadCyclist" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I am shopping for Time Edge First too so I have done a little research.
It seems that it is a good brand but very overpriced due to being Made in
France and due to the "badge" factor. But I am told they are well made
and ride well even at the bottom of their range. But for the same money
you can get more if you shop around - provided the other bike geometry
suits you.

Time has relatively slack seat tube (STA) and head tube (HTA) angles
which will appeal to some and not to others. It also has relatively
normal top tube length, about 5-8mm shorter than most others in same
size. This may or may not appeal.

Their slack STA is the main reason I am looking at Time, a 73 degree STA
is rare in main-stream off-the-shelf frame in size 53-54cm frame. 73.5-74
is more typical today for medium size frame, 53-55cm.

I have a 74 STA Madone right now and despite a 35mm set-back seat-post I
still can not get far enough behind the BB for comfort. So 1 degree gets
me about 10mm further back.

www.chainreactioncycles.com (UK) has them at what appears to me are "good"
prices if you can ever call Time prices any "good". They make Colnago C-50
price look almost reasonable in comparison. This is why you see them very
rarely on the roads. In my case I was not looking to buy Time (I think
prices are silly) but I could not find anything else with 73 degree STA in
53-54cm frame "off the shelf". So I am looking at the very bottom of their
range. I am not heavy (67kg/150 pounds) so I hope it will be good enough for
me. Tom Boonen I ain't. 8^)

RoadCyclist said:

www.chainreactioncycles.com (UK) has them at what appears to me are
"good" prices if you can ever call Time prices any "good". They make
Colnago C-50 price look almost reasonable in comparison. This is why
you see them very rarely on the roads. In my case I was not looking to
buy Time (I think prices are silly) but I could not find anything else
with 73 degree STA in 53-54cm frame "off the shelf". So I am looking at
the very bottom of their range. I am not heavy (67kg/150 pounds) so I
hope it will be good enough for me. Tom Boonen I ain't. 8^)

Is LeMond available in the UK? Slack angles used to his mantra,
and his bikes come in many different price ranges. I have one from the 90's
and it's quite nice, for what such old information is worth. Some of his
recent bikes have strangely shaped and fat tubes, which I don't care so much
for personally.