Tips for boosting endurance and speed?

Quoted message said:

I need to do a 2 mile run in under 17 minutes for my
age group.

Quoted message said:

Any suggestions as to how I boost my endurance and speed at
the same time?

How much time have you got to train (i.e., when is your
deadline)? Any of a number of people who frequent here can
recommend a plan for you if they know that. Careful who you
listen to, though.

Quoted message said:

I need to do a 2 mile run in under 17 minutes for my
age group.

When?

Phil M.

You cannot get as good a workout on a treadmill as you can
by real running. That is why you faded so badly.

The hills in your area can work for you if you have
gradual grades. For example, the driving roads in hilly
areas are usually pretty gradual or at least you can find
gradual grades on such roads. Look for the most gradual
uphill and most gradual downhill grades you can find. Look
for the longest grades you can find. Try to find smooth
trails or run on the road so that you don't twist an
ankle. Try to cover 5 miles per day. That's not that much.
You ought to be able to do that with no trouble.

Run steady the whole way on some days and other days run
easy uphill and faster on the downhill. On other days run
faster on the uphill and easy on the downhill. Your last
runs before the race should be faster on the downhill.
Remember that none of this will work unless the grades
are gradual. If you can do about 4 weeks of this you
should have no trouble.

If you are really nervous and confused about this try to
find an experienced runner to help you. Choose a runner
who doesn't just jog like so many people here or who is
overweight and thinks it's OK like some others here but
try to find someone who has been through races and is
expert in preparing himself to perform well. 17 minutes
for 2 miles is not that fast unless you are required to
run in military boots or carry some kind of weight pack
while you run which I know military personnel sometimes
are. Good luck.

Trigger Fish <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<triggerfish-
[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hello all,

I am an Army reservist who just started running about 3-4
months back. I got sidelined by the flu in December but
have been making OK progress.

I need to do a 2 mile run in under 17 minutes for my
age group.

In doing a trial run today on the track I did 1 mile just
fine and then ran out of juice. I usually can keep running
1.5 miles non-stop at 6.0 MPH on a treadmill. Obviously
that is not fast and far enough to meet that standard I
need to meet.

Any suggestions as to how I boost my endurance and speed
at the same time? The problem with running outdoors here
is the place I live in is very hilly so I prefer the
treadmill.

Thanks

Quoted message said:

Choose a runner who doesn't just jog like so many people
here or who is overweight and thinks it's OK like some
others here

Triggerfish, if you're still out there, this "Macelroy"
FNG is the main reason I warned you about not taking
just anyone's advice. This idiot has come from nowhere
on this newsgroup in the last few days spouting
sociopathic nonsense.

In any event, as I am sure you've already surmised, running
just 2 consecutive
8:30 miles is in fact more or less a "jog" for most folks
who run regularly; you haven't the remotest need for
"fast" training to get your APFT run completed -- you
basically need to build a little endurance. You haven't
yet gotten back to us as to your training time
constraints, but assuming you have any reasonable amount
of time, you can easily build your endurance enough to get
you up to 2 miles from your current 1.5, and your speed
down from 10:00
min./mile to 8:30. If that seems daunting to you, remember
that many other specialists in the military are
required to meet significantly faster times for the
same distance or, in some cases, over a 5-mile distance
instead of 2 miles.

"TopCounsel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Triggerfish, if you're still out there, this "Macelroy"
FNG is the main

reason

Quoted message said:

I warned you about not taking just anyone's advice. This
idiot has come

from

Quoted message said:

nowhere on this newsgroup in the last few days spouting
sociopathic

nonsense.

At one point about four years ago, more than half the posts
here were about him in some way.... people arguing about
him, talking to/about him, etc. - the entire group was
caught up refuting his dangerous, misinformed idiocy. He
really turned the group upside down, much like he's clearly
going to do again. The pattern is exactly the same, more and
more people every day are getting involved
discussing/refuting his trolling.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see, putting other people
down constantly."

iles.

[email hidden] (macelroy) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

You cannot get as good a workout on a treadmill as you can
by real running. That is why you faded so badly.

The hills in your area can work for you if you have
gradual grades. For example, the driving roads in hilly
areas are usually pretty gradual or at least you can
find gradual grades on such roads. Look for the most
gradual uphill and most gradual downhill grades you can
find. Look for the longest grades you can find. Try to
find smooth trails or run on the road so that you don't
twist an ankle. Try to cover 5 miles per day. That's not
that much. You ought to be able to do that with no
trouble.

Just start running 5 miles per day? What happened to
everything from 0 per day to 5 per day? And what about
varying the distance? Any coach will tell you that one of
the most important aspects of training is to vary the
distance and/or speed on a daily basis, including a day off
if necessary for recovery.

Quoted message said:

Remember that none of this will work

OK. Now you're making sense. Phew! I thought you were
serious the whole time. Man, you had me going there for a
while. You're killin' me macelroy. :-)

tkb

Quoted message said:

Any suggestions as to how I boost my endurance and speed at
the same time?

Imagine that macelroy is just a few steps in front of
you, and if can go just a little faster, you get to
strangle him 🙂

(oldtimers might recognize this as a takeoff on one of the
visualization techniques that Herb Elliott used)

Lyndon "Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!"
--US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

In article <[email hidden]>,

(TopCounsel) said:

Quoted message said:

Choose a runner who doesn't just jog like so many people
here or who is overweight and thinks it's OK like some
others here

Triggerfish, if you're still out there, this "Macelroy"
FNG is the main reason I warned you about not taking just
anyone's advice. This idiot has come from nowhere on this
newsgroup in the last few days spouting sociopathic
nonsense.

In any event, as I am sure you've already surmised,
running just 2 consecutive
8:30 miles is in fact more or less a "jog" for most folks
who run regularly; you haven't the remotest need for
"fast" training to get your APFT run completed -- you
basically need to build a little endurance. You haven't
yet gotten back to us as to your training time
constraints, but assuming you have any reasonable amount
of time, you can easily build your endurance enough to
get you up to 2 miles from your current 1.5, and your
speed down from 10:00
min./mile to 8:30. If that seems daunting to you, remember
that many other specialists in the military are
required to meet significantly faster times for the
same distance or, in some cases, over a 5-mile
distance instead of 2 miles.

I have about 4 weeks.

Ignore my other post, I mistakenly killed my own article
when I was trying to highlight it instead.

May I suggest an eight ball of coke?

macelroy said:

You cannot get as good a workout on a treadmill as you can
by real running. That is why you faded so badly.

As usual, this is faulty advice. I find running outdoors
after several training days on a treadmill liberating and
actually easier, so this generalization is gross to the max.

Quoted message said:

The hills in your area can work for you if you have
gradual grades.

Oh, yeah, and treadmills can't do gradual grades at
all. Riiiight.

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,-
,ø¤º eNo "If you can't go fast, go long." ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°-
`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º

Trigger Fish wrote:

Assuming you have little time to prepare (3-6 weeks), I'd
recommend doing the following work-out. Shoot for slow
runs at 10-11 min/mile, 3-4 miles, twice a week. Do one
speed work out where you run 1/2 mile intervals (shoot for
4-5) at near but not quite top speed with 0.2-0.25 slow
jogs (or walk, if you need to) in between. Do this for 2-3
weeks. On the 4th week, increase the pace on your 3-4
milers, say to 9:45-10
min/mile, and do 1 mile repeats (2-3) at a brisk pace (a
little slower than you did the 1/2 mile intervals), with
a 1/2 mile rest in between. I'd say that if you can run
each mile repeat at 8:30 min/mile or better, your 2-
miler at 17 min or less will be well within your grasp.
If you have a 5th and/or 6th week, keep doing the mile
repeats. On the week before your big day, take it easy
and keep those legs fresh for the effort ahead.

If you have more time (> 6 weeks), then I recommend you have
speed work with shorter and slightly faster intervals (4-6 x
0.25 mile) to get that speed up. Also, if the course you
will be running has some hills, I recommend doing some hill
training as well (6-8x1 minute intervals at 5% grade is what
I do; not extreme, but I had to work up to it), but with
little time to prepare, you can't do much in this area.
Notice the overall strategy: runs slightly longer than your
goal distance (since it is fairly short) to build endurance
at a nice comfortable pace, and one weekly speed workout to
teach your legs they have the need, the need for speed 🙂.

One last note: you can do these workouts on the treadmill or
outdoors. I do my speed and hill training on a treadmill.
But do try to get some outdoor runs in as well, since that
will simulate your 2 miler. Good luck.

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,-
,ø¤º eNo "If you can't go fast, go long." ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°-
`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º

macelroy said:

Run steady the whole way on some days and other days
run easy uphill and faster on the downhill. On other
days run faster on the uphill and easy on the downhill.
Your last runs before the race should be faster on the
downhill. Remember that none of this will work unless
the grades are gradual. If you can do about 4 weeks of
this you should have no trouble.

Geez. That's funny coach. I've never heard or read any
advice claiming that running downhill fast during hill
training is a good idea. Have you found a way to engage
in this foolish practice that doesn't produce all kinds
of injuries?

Quoted message said:

If you are really nervous and confused about this

Why would he possibly get confused? Because he's getting
bogus advice from self-proclaimed experts who have nothing
better to do than develop obese derriers while typing (do
you actually type, or is that too much work) one thoughtless
remark after another? Really Mac, you need new material, as
the stuff you brought to the game is getting rather stale.

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,-
,ø¤º eNo "If you can't go fast, go long." ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°-
`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º

SwStudio said:

At one point about four years ago, more than half the
posts here were about him in some way.... people arguing
about him, talking to/about him, etc. - the entire group
was caught up refuting his dangerous, misinformed idiocy.
He really turned the group upside down, much like he's
clearly going to do again. The pattern is exactly the
same, more and more people every day are getting involved
discussing/refuting his trolling.

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. By refuting
his faulty diatribes we can provide sound training advice.
Contrast provides a good learning device.

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,-
,ø¤º eNo "If you can't go fast, go long." ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°-
`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º

eNo said:

macelroy said:

Run steady the whole way on some days and other days
run easy uphill and faster on the downhill. On other
days run faster on the uphill and easy on the
downhill. Your last runs before the race should be
faster on the downhill. Remember that none of this
will work unless the grades are gradual. If you can do
about 4 weeks of this you should have no trouble.

Geez. That's funny coach. I've never heard or read any
advice claiming that running downhill fast during hill
training is a good idea.

Actually, this *is* a recognized form of training from
reputable sources
- some call it hills, some call it speed. Doug F. was the
first one to turn me onto it, but I've seen it elsewhere
also. The more serious ones use 30% up slopes and 10%
down, but I usually do much gentler down (for injury
prevention - less than 5% - and fast isn't all that fast)
and up (not that strong yet). If you're going to have
downhills in a race, and you're not planning on slowing
for them, some training / strengthening ahead of time is
*really* helpful. Absence of this training and/or
recognition of the topography is one way people get fried
at Boston. I still believe that part of the reason I was
so sore after my first trail race was I raced the gentle
downhill at the end - and had not done any training
appropriate for it. (Many other reasons to be sure, but
this was definitely a contributer.) I will not make that
mistake a 2nd time - I either back off in the race or
train for it.

Uphills and downhills use different muscles and different
techniques. Some hill workouts, work on the uphills and walk
or recover on the downs. On other hill workouts, work on the
downhills and walk/recover the ups. BUT you need to build up
to both of them, esp. the downhills. Neither one is easy,
and the downhill requires a lot more strength and
coordination. (keep in mind I'm dealing with 10-30% slopes
on trails most of the time)

Have you

Quoted message said:

found a way to engage in this foolish practice that
doesn't produce all kinds of injuries?

3 inches of fresh snow 😉 I rarely run hard downhill, esp.
on long runs with 3 in of snow and almost 40 min of hills in
the middle, but it was just so tempting near the *bottom* of
a couple hills to let loose a little. (knew better than to
let loose from the top 😉 Actually, I was about to wipe out
anyway, and the speed work was a self defense 😉 Soft snow
would provide protection if I wiped out. Worked perfectly -
got a little bit of confidence / strengthening for downhills
and emphasized where I've still got some weaknesses, which I
already knew about. But keep in mind, I've been working on
hills and doing strengthening specifically for these kinds
of things.

In general, strengthening does a lot toward preventing all
kinds of injuries, including hurting too badly from running
downhill fast.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

In article said:

macelroy said:

Run steady the whole way on some days and other days
run easy uphill and faster on the downhill. On other
days run faster on the uphill and easy on the
downhill. Your last runs before the race should be
faster on the downhill. Remember that none of this
will work unless the grades are gradual. If you can do
about 4 weeks of this you should have no trouble.

Geez. That's funny coach. I've never heard or read any
advice claiming that running downhill fast during hill
training is a good idea.

The troll is absolutely right in this case. Downhill running
is good for form, and if you learn proper downhill running
form (by running at a pace that puts pressure on your form),
you will run more safely on downhills.

Most people overstride when they run downhills. This is what
makes downhill running potentially dangerous. When you learn
to run downhill with light footsteps and rapid turnover
(which is facilitated by the fact that the toe-off is
easier), it can be a very good speed/economy drill.

When one runs over hilly terrain during training, it is not
necessary to do specific downhill reps -- one can actually
pick up a pretty formidable speed on the downhills during an
ordinary training run, without pushing heart rate very high.

Quoted message said:

Have you found a way to engage in this foolish practice
that doesn't produce all kinds of injuries?

I engage in it all the time.

You know what they say about stopped clocks, right ? Well
McElroy is sort of like that.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

eNo said:

SwStudio said:

At one point about four years ago, more than half the
posts here were about him in some way.... people arguing
about him, talking to/about him, etc. - the entire group
was caught up refuting his dangerous, misinformed idiocy.
He really turned the group upside down, much like he's
clearly going to do again. The pattern is exactly the
same, more and more people every day are getting involved
discussing/refuting his trolling.

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. By refuting
his faulty diatribes we can provide sound training advice.
Contrast provides a good learning device.

contrast provides a good learning device??!! surely you're
joking, mr. feynman.

consistency is the key to any success in any field on this
planet. you go around contrasting stuff, you won't get
anywhere. just do what the gurus tell you. if you can't
follow, you fall off into the dark oblivion of a mundane
existence.

contrast looks good only in paintings.

jobs

Quoted message said:

You know what they say about stopped clocks, right ? Well
McElroy is sort of like that.

I wish we knew at what time he has stopped. Then we would
know whether to read or move on.

Phil M.

Donovan Rebbechi said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

eNo said:

macelroy said:

Run steady the whole way on some days and other days
run easy uphill and faster on the downhill. On other
days run faster on the uphill and easy on the
downhill. Your last runs before the race should be
faster on the downhill. Remember that none of this
will work unless the grades are gradual. If you can do
about 4 weeks of this you should have no trouble.

Geez. That's funny coach. I've never heard or read any
advice claiming that running downhill fast during hill
training is a good idea.

The troll is absolutely right in this case. Downhill
running is good for form, and if you learn proper downhill
running form (by running at a pace that puts pressure on
your form), you will run more safely on downhills.

Most people overstride when they run downhills. This is
what makes downhill running potentially dangerous. When
you learn to run downhill with light footsteps and rapid
turnover (which is facilitated by the fact that the toe-
off is easier), it can be a very good speed/economy drill.

When one runs over hilly terrain during training, it is
not necessary to do specific downhill reps -- one can
actually pick up a pretty formidable speed on the
downhills during an ordinary training run, without pushing
heart rate very high.

Running down-hills is okay for training effect, but right
after you've run an uphill interval? Okay, live and learn.

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,-
,ø¤º eNo "If you can't go fast, go long." ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°-
`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º

eNo said:

Running down-hills is okay for training effect, but right
after you've run an uphill interval? Okay, live and learn.

as with everything, it depends on the objective of the run.

When I was running a hill repetitively last summer
(aerobically - more interested in strength than speed and it
was probably 20-30% slope), I always ran the downhills (but
not hard since my strength/skill wasn't up there yet) since
I didn't have time to do separate runs, but needed the
downhill strength. But it reduced the quality of the uphill
effort or the number of reps I could do.

Generally, the more recovery between work portions, the
harder you can do the work portions. Using less recovery
(running downhills) may result in a harder overall workout
(such as lactate stacker), but the work portions will
probably not be as hard. There's exceptions, I'm sure. But
the troll's comments had the alternating hard/easy versions
on gradual slopes (I'm assuming <5% since I doubt that he
does trails unless under a bridge), so that shouldn't be
that difficult.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope