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Titanium vs aluminum.

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rec.sport.unicycling
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6 September 2006
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ntappin
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  1. Well I am starting to think about putting together a freestyle uni and
    after now having to upgrade every single stock uni I have bought, I
    want to do this right.

    I am a huge fan of Miyata unis, they have history, style, and a great
    reputation. They also have amazingly light, custom fitted, and strong
    frames, but they come at quite a price (about 450 Canadian shipped).

    The other option I have been looking at is the New Koxx signature frame
    from municycle.com or maybe someone more local has it. This frame is
    wayyy cheaper than the Miyata one, (I'm estimating around 280 shipped
    based on the shipping of the Miyata). But it is also heavier and weaker
    than the Miyata I believe.

    My major question is how much difference is there between Titanium and
    Aluminum? From what I hear Titanium is both stronger and lighter, but
    how much so?

    Is it worth the extra 170 dollars for something that is custom fitted,
    and however much stronger and lighter?

    Please only give factual answers not just the Koxx frame is sexy and
    aluminum therefore it is better.

    --
    ntappin

    'how to build a strong comfy saddle from junk.'
    (http://tinyurl.com/hxcb3)
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  2. Ask around and see if you can find some reviews on the frames, Just
    because you know the material, dosn't mean you know its strength. See
    if you can find anyone that has broken one of them, and find out how.

    --
    Evan Byrne
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  3. ntappin said:


    My major question is how much difference is there between Titanium and
    Aluminum? From what I hear Titanium is both stronger and lighter, but
    how much so?

    Please only give factual answers not just the Koxx frame is sexy and
    aluminum therefore it is better.

    Please ask only answerable questions, not just how much difference is
    there between titanium and aluminum. What "difference" do you mean?

    Lighter? You mean denser. Titanium is denser with a specific gravity of
    4.5 as opposed to aluminum at 2.7. Both materials are considered
    lightweight but of course 10 pounds of aluminum is heavier than one
    pound of titanium, or lead for that matter. Light doesn't mean anything
    is this context.

    Cost? Although titanium has dropped dramatically in price do to
    improvements in production and refinement, aluminum is still
    substantially cheaper. Any alloy of aluminum is cheaper, and there are
    some strong ones like 7075-T6.

    Tensile stength? Ti has a yield strength of 830 MPa making it much
    stronger than aluminum at 200 MPa.

    Machinability? Aluminum, any alloy, hands down. Titanium is a pain to
    machine.

    Weldability? Titanium is a poor heat conductor and, therefore, welds
    much more easily than aluminum.

    Titanium is a cool, high tech material having few, if any, unicycling
    advantages over aluminum.

    --
    harper

    -Greg Harper

    B L U E S H I F T

    *jc is the only main man. there can be no other.*

    This is still my nth post....*AWESOME!!!*

    "I'd like to dress up like a baby, lick your toes, and then have a
    plate of spaghetti while watching Letterman." - Rafiel Laserbeam
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  4. harper said:


    Titanium is a cool, high tech material having few, if any, unicycling
    advantages over aluminum.

    I don't think that's true. Everyone likes the aluminum KH frames
    because they're lighter than steel frames; a titanium frame could be
    stronger than the KH at the same weight, and wouldn't fail in the way
    we've seen KH frames fail. With titanium, you could probably have a
    crown design similar to the KH, but with the seat tube going all the
    way through the cross-bar, greatly increasing the range of possible
    seat heights (which on the KH is limited to about 3cm).

    But it certainly would be significantly more expensive.

    --
    tholub
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  5. Part of the reason that titanium is popular on bikes is that it can be
    more flexible than Al - no fatigue problems - so you can get a hardtail
    that's got a bit of springyness in the frame so doesn't have too harsh
    a ride. That might make a uni frame too flexy, unless it just used
    thicker tubing, possibly removing any advantages.

    Would be damned shiny though.

    --
    johnhimsworth

    Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and then
    beat you with experience.
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  6. johnhimsworth said:

    Part of the reason that titanium is popular on bikes is that it can be
    more flexible than Al.

    I was going to say the same thing. Titanium is the holy grail for bike
    frames because it has the springiness of steel but can be lighter (OK
    Harper, less massive) for the same strength and doesn't corrode. The
    downside is it's expensive. Aluminium bike frames are far too stiff,
    feel dead and crack.
    But for a unicycle frame, the stiffness of aluminium is probably an
    advantage because of the pedalling forces trying to move the tyre into
    the frame. And lightness isn't really much of an issue anyway because
    unicycle frames weigh bugger all anyway compared to the wheel, tyre and
    saddle.

    Rob

    --
    rob.northcott

    'Dartmoor Muni Weekend'
    (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46116) - Last
    weekend in May 2006
    Same again next year anyone? It'll be dry, I promise.
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  7. just here to pile on...Ti is to springy for uni frames...Tholub, have
    you seen any Ti bike forks latly?

    --
    forget_your_life

    dream one dream many....
    *'R.I.P' (http://tinyurl.com/vr86)*
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  8. The most important component in a good frame, be it bike or unicycle, is
    good design. The secondmost important component is good build; in other
    words it was assembled properly with good welds, brazes or joints. It
    doesn't matter what it's made out of if those two requirements aren't
    met.

    Aluminum is stiff and basically brittle. This means frams generally
    have to be fatter to retain stiffness. And they have to be stiff,
    because if they flex, they will fail that much faster. That's what
    worries me about aluminum unicycle frames, because all the twisting
    force that goes into them has to be completely absorbed or the frame is
    in danger of stress fractures over time. On the other hand, that
    stiffness is just what you want for most types of unicycling, so it's
    fine as long as the legs or crown don't have to be too fat.

    Titanium flexes, which is generally a plus on a bike frame, but is not
    desirable on a unicycle frame. So you have to design to minimize the
    flex, which kind of eliminates one of the nice advantages of using Ti.
    However, if a Ti frame flexes a little bit, it can do that forever
    without leading to cracks or eventual failure. If the flex is minimal
    enough it will not be noticeable by the rider while even that amount of
    flex is probably not acceptable for an aluminum frame.

    I love the look of anodized aluminum, but unfinished titanium looks
    pretty cool too. Nobody wants to paint it, because then you have to
    *tell* people what it's made out of, taking away from that aspect of
    the coolness factor.

    All of that said, the Koxx frames look great. I borrowed one for the
    coasting and gliding competitions at Unicon and enjoyed riding them.
    They have very tight clearance on the tire though, so it could limit
    your tire choices. Also they're new, so they don't have an established
    track record for reliability. I think they'll hold up fine though,
    unless you really abuse them. The construction looks very stiff and
    beefy.

    The Miyata frames have been available in Ti for several years, but I
    don't know much about them. Most owners of those frames live in Japan,
    and use them for either track or Freestyle, which generally is a lot
    less abusive to frames than stuff like Trials or Street. I've never
    heard of a failure (with either frame), and I expect the Miyata ones to
    hold up as well as, or better than, anything aluminum that's currently
    out there.

    To me the Koxx frame looks like a better design for stand-up skills,
    though Japanese riders make it obvious that Miyata frames can work just
    fine. The Koxx frame may be more of a knee-banger for other skills
    though, but at least nothing sticks out--it just has the corners at the
    top.

    --
    johnfoss

    John Foss
    "jfoss" at "unicycling.com" -- www.unicycling.com
    -----------------------------------------------

    "The worst thing you can do on a unicycle when you land is stop dead."
    -- Kris Holm, world's expert on high-consequence unicycling
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  9. harper said:

    Please ask only answerable questions, not just how much difference is
    there between titanium and aluminum. What "difference" do you mean?

    Looks like you didn't have a problem answering his unanswerable
    question...hmm...you must be super man or something.

    --
    AscenXion

    *S*ingle*T*rak'*n*
    *O*rder*O*f*O*ne

    Quoted message said:

    You've shown your true face, AscenXion, and revealed that only an
    exclusive order of people can exist in your world where you are an
    intolerant god.


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  10. I know very little about diffrent metal types, strengths and such. But
    is it true you usualy weld Ti in a bag?

    --
    Evan Byrne
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  11. johnfoss said:

    Titanium flexes, which is generally a plus on a bike frame, but is not
    desirable on a unicycle frame. So you have to design to minimize the
    flex, which kind of eliminates one of the nice advantages of using Ti.

    I don't have much experience with different and exotic frames, so I am
    curious: Can you actually feel the flex of the frame, i.e. do you speak
    out of experience? I guess the only problem is the torsion of the frame
    (of the crown against the axle). But shouldn't such forces be avoided
    anyway? I mean, thats what kills rims as well and in such a situation
    the wheel probably flexes the most anyway.

    I also think that it is NOT true that flex is desirable in a bicycle
    frame in general. The flexing of the frame absorbs a significant amount
    of the pedal force - which is the last thing you want. So especially
    for competitive cycling the frame must be as stiff as possible. Only
    the parts holding the wheels should flex, but that is realised through
    the shape of the back of the frame.

    My father (who is in general pretty cheap) recently got a new road
    racing bicycle with a Ti-frame. Now he is consistently 3 km/h faster on
    average (i.e. the average speed on his training round with some hills
    increased from 30 km/h to 33 km/h. According to him most of that can be
    attributed to the stiffer frame (previously he had a steel frame).

    --
    Niko
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  12. AscenXion said:

    Looks like you didn't have a problem answering his unanswerable
    question...hmm...you must be super man or something.

    Superman is one word and is capitalized.

    --
    harper

    -Greg Harper

    B L U E S H I F T

    *jc is the only main man. there can be no other.*

    This is still my nth post....*AWESOME!!!*

    "I'd like to dress up like a baby, lick your toes, and then have a
    plate of spaghetti while watching Letterman." - Rafiel Laserbeam
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  13. Evan Byrne said:

    I know very little about diffrent metal types, strengths and such. But
    is it true you usualy weld Ti in a bag?

    Ti needs to be heavily back purged with an inert gas such as argon or
    helium or, as you say, bagged. The "bag" is actually an encasement that
    can withstand the heat and hold the inert gas. Ti oxidizes easily at
    the melting point and makes brittle welds. So what Evan says about
    bagging it is true.

    --
    harper

    -Greg Harper

    B L U E S H I F T

    *jc is the only main man. there can be no other.*

    This is still my nth post....*AWESOME!!!*

    "I'd like to dress up like a baby, lick your toes, and then have a
    plate of spaghetti while watching Letterman." - Rafiel Laserbeam
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  14. Niko said:

    Can you actually feel the flex of the frame, i.e. do you speak out of
    experience?

    Yes. Some frames can be very flexi, like a 'Semcycle Deluxe'
    (http://store.semcycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=6) frame, which
    advertises the flex as "more comfortable ride - less saddle soreness."
    That is subject to opinion, but it could work in terms of the seat
    flexing from side to side to do less chafing.

    My best example of a non-flexi frame would be my 'Wilder'
    (http://www.unicycle.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=485), with an aluminum
    box-type frame. I *hope* it doesn't flex, because that would lead to
    cracking.

    In between is my carbon fiber MUni by Roger Davies. Carbon tubes with
    aluminum lugs. The lugs fit inside the tubes, and were fixed in place
    with strong epoxy. But the fit was so tight on the joints, one of them
    pushed all the glue out and it came apart after a while. I couldn't for
    the life of me get those two pieces back together (Roger fixed it),
    which told me not only how solidly it was constructed, but also the
    types of twisting forces that pass through any unicycle frame if you
    pedal hard.

    Quoted message said:

    I guess the only problem is the torsion of the frame (of the crown
    against the axle).

    Even after looking it up, not sure what you mean by torsion. The foce I
    speak of is basically your hand on the handle or legs pushing the front
    of the seat to the left, while your pedaling force twists the wheel to
    the right. Repeat in the opposite direction for each revolution of the
    wheel. This affects the whole frame from seat clamp to bearing
    attachments, though how it's affected depends on the build. On my
    carbon frame the lug joints were especially vulnerable because they
    tended to want to "unscrew." When Roger fixed it he added some aluminum
    pegs in each joint to keep them from twisting.

    Quoted message said:

    I also think that it is NOT true that flex is desirable in a bicycle
    frame in general.

    Correct. Side-to-side flex=bad; up & down flex, if it works to smooth
    the ride=good. A well-designed frame will provide the light suspension
    effect without any side-to-side flex. For racing, depending on the
    application, you might not want any suspension effect either.

    Getting back to the original question, if you ride my Wilder up a steep
    hill, then you ride an old Schwinn up, you'll be *very* aware of the
    frame flexing and if you're an experienced hill-climber you'll be able
    to feel your energy being sapped by it.

    --
    johnfoss

    John Foss
    "jfoss" at "unicycling.com" -- www.unicycling.com
    -----------------------------------------------

    "The worst thing you can do on a unicycle when you land is stop dead."
    -- Kris Holm, world's expert on high-consequence unicycling
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  15. Niko said:

    I don't have much experience with different and exotic frames, so I am
    curious: Can you actually feel the flex of the frame

    I think Shledon Brown has it right:

    Any frame will flex around the bottom bracket a bit in response to
    pedaling loads. This flex can be felt, and many riders assume that it
    is consuming (wasting) pedaling effort. Actually, that's not the
    case, because the metals used in bicycle frames are very efficient
    springs, and the energy gets returned at the end of the power stroke,
    so little or nothing is actually lost.
    [http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html]

    That's an interesting page with a lot of relevant information. But I
    also think John Foss hit the nail on the head: A well designed frame
    beats a poorly designed one regardless of material.

    Quoted message said:

    I also think that it is NOT true that flex is desirable in a bicycle
    frame in general...

    See above. Good (bicycle) riders can make use of the energy stored in
    the frame as they mash down on the pedals and whip the bike side to
    side during a sprint.

    I don't expect the same is true as a unicycle frame twists, though.

    By the way, I don't believe stifness has anything significant to do
    with the perceived harshness of a bicycle's ride. Tires, even high
    pressure road tires, deform farm more than the frame. The
    transmission of shocks from the road has more to do with frame
    geometry than material.

    Quoted message said:

    My father (who is in general pretty cheap) recently got a new road
    racing bicycle with a Ti-frame. Now he is consistently 3 km/h faster on
    average (i.e. the average speed on his training round with some hills
    increased from 30 km/h to 33 km/h. According to him most of that can be
    attributed to the stiffer frame (previously he had a steel frame).

    Don't believe anecdotal evidence. Even from your dad :-) If he really
    is riding that much faster, it is likely a combination of better fit,
    lower friction, and just being psyched to be on a hot new ride.

    By the way, I have a minor correction for John: Aluminum is not stiff.
    It has a lower modulus of elasticity than titanium (i.e. it the same
    shape bends more easily). Aluminum frames use extra material to
    achieve the high amount of stiffness needed, as John pointed out, to
    protect the brittle material from cracking.

    Ken

  16. The elastic or Young's mudulii (?) for the three materials being
    discussed will vary slightly according to the alloys but they are
    roughly:

    Aluminium 70GPa
    Titanium 110GPa
    Steel 205GPa

    So for a tube of the same size aluminium will deflect or flex 3 times
    as much as the steel one under the same load.
    ali bike frames are stiff because of the tube sizes are so much bigger
    than steel, double the diameter of a tube and its stiffness will
    increase by 16 times (I think) easily overcoming the fact that the
    material is more flexible.

    --
    ian.stockwell

    A chocolate unicycle tastes great but is a bugger to ride.
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  17. Thank you for those interesting replies. It's good to hear some well
    founded arguments instead of just speculating.

    Would a heavily ovalized tubing be an option for Ti unicycle frames
    (increasing stiffness at least in some directions)? The whole tubing
    diameter can't be increased by much.

    --
    Niko
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  18. Niko said:

    Would a heavily ovalized tubing be an option for Ti unicycle frames
    (increasing stiffness at least in some directions)? The whole tubing
    diameter can't be increased by much.

    I don't know if ovalizing helps any against twisting (torsion?). It
    probably helps some, but perhaps not enough to justify a higher cost in
    materials or build?

    The second axis of force through a unicycle frame is probably stress
    from pushing-pulling on the seat or handle. This would tend to bend the
    frame to the front or rear, starting from wherever the bottom of the
    seat post is inside the frame. That's another reason why you want a
    comfortable amount of tube inside the frame...

    --
    johnfoss

    John Foss
    "jfoss" at "unicycling.com" -- www.unicycling.com
    -----------------------------------------------

    "The worst thing you can do on a unicycle when you land is stop dead."
    -- Kris Holm, world's expert on high-consequence unicycling
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