TOC decision on stage 1

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o.c_o_m> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

KC said:

Seems pretty clear. If you were behind as the leaders crossed into town,
your time reflected that.

But this still doesn't reflect Ciolek's time at 523 sec's back. Weird.

-Kieran

My guess is the standings have been adjusted from what is posted on-line,
consistent with the verbal decision.

I believe you're probably correct there Dan.

Diablo Scott said:

I'm not sure I buy the Bott's dots story - looking at the photos they
were pretty far from the centerline. They do put reflectors in other
locations though - like near fire hydrants.

http://www.onemillionrevolutions.org/tick/black.php?img=images/gallery/20070220023920455500.jpg

Tom Kunich said:

The Tour de France finishes are all screwed up about 1/3rd of the time
because they go for the town which will pay the most and not the town that
has the best finishing straight.

Which is exactly the same as the ATOC.

Mark
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com

Ewoud Dronkert said:

bjorn said:

it already was pointed out that the
roundabouts in France are dangerous

They are?! I don't think so. Can't remember a field crash on a roundabout.

Not quite as big, but I remember a crash early in a Tour of France in
the late 1990s or early 2000s where a bunch of guys rode into the side
of a roundabout and Laurent Jalabert lost his yellow jersey.

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Dan Connelly said:

Diablo Scott said:

I'm not sure I buy the Bott's dots story - looking at the photos they
were pretty far from the centerline. They do put reflectors in other
locations though - like near fire hydrants.

http://www.onemillionrevolutions.org/tick/black.php?img=images/gallery/20070220023920455500.jpg

Wow, that's quite a different perspective from this shot.
http://tinyurl.com/2aezuu

stage times for each group should have been taken when the race turned off
the road course and onto the first of the 3 laps.

hitting only one of those white things used to make the lane lines in the
street isn't too bad, but if you hit several inline it can knock your hands
off the bars and/or cause you to be moved abruptly and unexpectedly left or
right.

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Diablo Scott said:

Dan Connelly said:

The decision to neutralize circuits should have been made BEFORE the
race. It's fairly obvious 11 turns per lap is a problem.

11 turns in 3 miles... unnecessary but hardly a criterium course.

2.3 turns per kilometer -- okay, good point. Probably no worse than
traffic islands in Europe.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, the crash happened in the straight section near the finish line,
corners had nothing to do with it.

Another good point.

Neverthless, I hope they fix the problem of "neutralizing" only Levi's
group. The whole pack should receive the winner's time.

Dan

"Diablo Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Connelly said:

Diablo Scott said:

I'm not sure I buy the Bott's dots story - looking at the photos they
were pretty far from the centerline. They do put reflectors in other
locations though - like near fire hydrants.

http://www.onemillionrevolutions.org/tick/black.php?img=images/gallery/20070220023920455500.jpg

Wow, that's quite a different perspective from this shot.
http://tinyurl.com/2aezuu

Have you ever ran over those things before? I have at speed and they are
pretty nasty devices for a bicycle. On the other hand they sure make driving
a lot safer.

Scott said:

On Feb 20, 9:40 am, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

Quoted message said:

Diablo Scott said:

Dan Connelly wrote:

>The decision to neutralize circuits should have been made BEFORE the
>race. It's fairly obvious 11 turns per lap is a problem.

Quoted message said:

11 turns in 3 miles... unnecessary but hardly a criterium course.

2.3 turns per kilometer -- okay, good point. Probably no worse than traffic islands in Europe.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, the crash happened in the straight section near the finish line,
corners had nothing to do with it.

Another good point.

Neverthless, I hope they fix the problem of "neutralizing" only Levi's group. The whole pack should receive the winner's time.

Dan

from cyclingnews.com:

"Due to the crash and the large number of riders that went down in the
crash, our panel of commisaires made a decision to award all the
riders with the time of the winner," said race director Jim Birrell.
"I think it was a fair decision and the right decision." When asked
who initiated the discussion about making the change from the UCI
regulation, Birrell said it was the chief commissaire.

Seems like they did give the same time to everyone, not just Levi's
group. Plus, it looks like it was the commissaire, not anyone
affiliated with the promotion of the event, who initiated the ruling,
which sort of puts a damper on those folks who think there's an
inherent evil plot for Levi to win at all costs.

This is corrupt. Decisions shouldn't be made based on some subjective
opinion of "fairness." The rules are the rules. There is no rule that
says if you crash outside the 3km, you get the winner's time. You don't
see the NFL officials saying that the guy who fumbled on accident will
get the touchdown because that's "fair."

This is an embarrassment to the sport when officials violate the rules.
The officials are there to enforce the rules, not make up new rules
that aren't on the books.

What's fair is the rules, not rules that don't exist.

Thanks,

Magilla

MagillaGorilla said:

Scott said:

On Feb 20, 9:40 am, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Diablo Scott wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Dan Connelly wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>The decision to neutralize circuits should have been made BEFORE the
>>race. It's fairly obvious 11 turns per lap is a problem.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>11 turns in 3 miles... unnecessary but hardly a criterium course.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2.3 turns per kilometer -- okay, good point. Probably no worse than traffic islands in Europe.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Anyway, the crash happened in the straight section near the finish line,
>corners had nothing to do with it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Another good point.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Neverthless, I hope they fix the problem of "neutralizing" only Levi's group. The whole pack should receive the winner's time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dan

Quoted message said:

from cyclingnews.com:

Quoted message said:

"Due to the crash and the large number of riders that went down in the
crash, our panel of commisaires made a decision to award all the
riders with the time of the winner," said race director Jim Birrell.
"I think it was a fair decision and the right decision." When asked
who initiated the discussion about making the change from the UCI
regulation, Birrell said it was the chief commissaire.

Quoted message said:

Seems like they did give the same time to everyone, not just Levi's
group. Plus, it looks like it was the commissaire, not anyone
affiliated with the promotion of the event, who initiated the ruling,
which sort of puts a damper on those folks who think there's an
inherent evil plot for Levi to win at all costs.

This is corrupt. Decisions shouldn't be made based on some subjective
opinion of "fairness." The rules are the rules. There is no rule that
says if you crash outside the 3km, you get the winner's time. You don't
see the NFL officials saying that the guy who fumbled on accident will
get the touchdown because that's "fair."

This is an embarrassment to the sport when officials violate the rules.
The officials are there to enforce the rules, not make up new rules
that aren't on the books.

What's fair is the rules, not rules that don't exist.

Thanks,

Magilla- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm split on this. The CR approved the course, including the finishing
circuits as safe, but when they crashed he changes his judgement and
extends the zone.
If they thought it was hazardous then they should've made a ruling
that the time entering the circuit wwas the one you got, and sprint
for bonus time and the win, if not they shouldn't have changed the
rule.
IMO the worst situation is changing the rules in the middle of the
game.
Bill C

Tom Kunich said:

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o.c_o_m> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

KC said:

Seems pretty clear. If you were behind as the leaders crossed into town,
your time reflected that.

But this still doesn't reflect Ciolek's time at 523 sec's back. Weird.

-Kieran

My guess is the standings have been adjusted from what is posted on-line,
consistent with the verbal decision.

I believe you're probably correct there Dan.

Look at stage 2 GC -- this is in fact what happened. Chris Horner and Ciolek
are restored to their proper GC positions.

Dan

MagillaGorilla said:

This is corrupt. Decisions shouldn't be made based on some subjective
opinion of "fairness." The rules are the rules. There is no rule that
says if you crash outside the 3km, you get the winner's time. You don't
see the NFL officials saying that the guy who fumbled on accident will
get the touchdown because that's "fair."

This is an embarrassment to the sport when officials violate the rules.
The officials are there to enforce the rules, not make up new rules
that aren't on the books.

What's fair is the rules, not rules that don't exist.

Well, hopefully this crooked race won't get ProTour status.

There was a quote by some team manager of some rule that states if 60%
of the field crashes...
I looked up the UCI rule book on road racing and didn't see anything
of the sort. Maybe he was refering to some TOC specific rule in the
race bible which I haven't seen. Or perhaps its some domestic ngb
rule from that managers country. I've notice many get confused by the
different sets of rules that can apply.

In any case it looks like it took a couple of days to adjust it.
First only counting those riders with levi, then expanding it to all
in the main group.

I did find the following in the UCI rules that pretty much says the
promoter and head official can do what ever they want:

Race incidents
2.2.029 In case of an accident or incident that could impinge upon the
normal conduct of a race in general or
a particular stage thereof, race director may, after obtaining the
agreement of the commissaires'
panel and having informed the timekeepers, at any moment, decide:
· to modify the course,
· to temporarily neutralise the race or stage,
· to declare a stage null and void,
· to cancel part of a stage as well as the results of any possible
intermediate classifications and to
restart the stage near the place of the incident,
· to let the results stand or
· to restart the race or stage, taking account of the gaps recorded at
the moment of the incident.