Too big to be fast?

"Mike L" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I used to run sporadically in my 20's. I never even thought about speed -

at

Quoted message said:

6'2'' 155lbs it wasn't a concern. After extensive time off from back and

knee

Quoted message said:

problems, I finally got back into the gym a few years ago and converted

all my

Quoted message said:

middle-age spread to lean muscle. After that even after a good year of 20+ mpw put me at solid
180. I guess I could starve myself but I'd really like

to

Quoted message said:

keep what size I have. Problem is I'd like to run faster too, like maybe a

6-7

Quoted message said:

min pace over mid to long distances. Is it possible to do 17 min 5k's and

35

Quoted message said:

min 10k's at my size? I'm shooting for a sub 20 5k in the spring, but it

just

Quoted message said:

seems like the speed gains I make are painfully hard to come by. I've

tried

Quoted message said:

400m repeats, 800m repeats, pyramid repeats, hills. Should I just bite the bullet and drop
10 lbs??

It's up to you - one fellow who I regularly discuss weight lifting with ran sub-19:xx for a 5k
at 200 lbs.

BTW, I did my best 5k when I was running 1200's and miles, not 400's and 800's. You might consider
miles at under 5k race pace.

-S- kbnj.comkbnj.comOpen ↗

[email hidden] (Mike L) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I used to run sporadically in my 20's. I never even thought about speed - at 6'2'' 155lbs it
wasn't a concern. After extensive time off from back and knee problems, I finally got back into
the gym a few years ago and converted all my middle-age spread to lean muscle. After that even
after a good year of 20+ mpw put me at solid 180. I guess I could starve myself but I'd really
like to keep what size I have. Problem is I'd like to run faster too, like maybe a 6-7 min pace
over mid to long distances. Is it possible to do 17 min 5k's and 35 min 10k's at my size? I'm
shooting for a sub 20 5k in the spring, but it just seems like the speed gains I make are
painfully hard to come by.

A sub 20 5K at 6'2", 180 pounds? Shouldn't be a problem. I ran a 21:49 at 203 pounds. I'm 5'10".

Kirk Leach Tegucigalpa, Honduras

In article said:

I used to run sporadically in my 20's. I never even thought about speed - at 6'2'' 155lbs it
wasn't a concern. After extensive time off from back and knee problems, I finally got back into
the gym a few years ago and converted all my middle-age spread to lean muscle. After that even
after a good year of 20+ mpw put me at solid 180. I guess I could starve myself but I'd really
like to keep what size I have. Problem is I'd like to run faster too, like maybe a 6-7 min pace
over mid to long distances. Is it possible to do 17 min 5k's and 35 min 10k's at my size? I'm
shooting for a sub 20 5k in the spring,

A 17min 5k would be difficult, but a 20min 5k should be somewhat less so.

Quoted message said:

but it just seems like the speed gains I make are painfully hard to come by. I've tried 400m
repeats, 800m repeats, pyramid repeats, hills.

Have you tried increasing milage ?

Quoted message said:

Should I just bite the bullet and drop 10 lbs??

You might drop weight if you increase milage anyway. Or you might not. But you will get faster.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

[email hidden] (Mike L) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I used to run sporadically in my 20's. I never even thought about speed - at 6'2'' 155lbs it
wasn't a concern. After extensive time off from back and knee problems, I finally got back into
the gym a few years ago and converted all my middle-age spread to lean muscle. After that even
after a good year of 20+ mpw put me at solid 180. I guess I could starve myself but I'd really
like to keep what size I have. Problem is I'd like to run faster too, like maybe a 6-7 min pace
over mid to long distances. Is it possible to do 17 min 5k's and 35 min 10k's at my size? I'm
shooting for a sub 20 5k in the spring, but it just seems like the speed gains I make are
painfully hard to come by. I've tried 400m repeats, 800m repeats, pyramid repeats, hills. Should I
just bite the bullet and drop 10 lbs??

Well the size shouldn't be a problem. The mileage "20+" is. My PR's are 18:28 5K, 38:38 10K, and
3:10 Marathon at 5'11" and 200+ pounds. All in my late 30's but I did do 39:45 10K and a 1:29:25
half at 43. The later two were after my second knee surgery.

None of those were off 20-30 miles per week. Get yourself in the 40-50 MPW range, do one hard
tempo/interval/hill per week and a long run every other weekend. If you're going to run a decent 10K
that long run should be 11-14 miles. You can do speed work until you're blue in the face and it's
not going to help much for anything over a mile if you don't have the volume. The weight will take
care of itself.

Keith Stone Winston Salem, NC

Mike L said:

I used to run sporadically in my 20's. I never even thought about speed - at 6'2'' 155lbs it
wasn't a concern. After extensive time off from back and knee problems, I finally got back into
the gym a few years ago and converted all my middle-age spread to lean muscle. After that even
after a good year of 20+ mpw put me at solid 180. I guess I could starve myself but I'd really
like to keep what size I have. Problem is I'd like to run faster too, like maybe a 6-7 min pace
over mid to long distances. Is it possible to do 17 min 5k's and 35 min 10k's at my size? I'm
shooting for a sub 20 5k in the spring, but it just seems like the speed gains I make are
painfully hard to come by. I've tried 400m repeats, 800m repeats, pyramid repeats, hills. Should I
just bite the bullet and drop 10 lbs??

In a college jogging class, there was a weight lifting person who must have weighed 180. He did a
5:46 mile. So it's possible. I would suggest starting with 200m repeats at the desired pace, to get
your body use to the speed, then up the interval from there.

Brian

I agree that's doable Kirk, but I'd like to shave a couple of minutes off that eventually. It just
seems like I'm going to have to choose whether I want to be all about size and strength or speed. I
looked at a few "clydesdale" results. Even in the 190lb class 6:30 seems to be about the fastest
pace to be found! I dunno. Maybe some intense plyometrics would make a difference....

Quoted message said:

A sub 20 5K at 6'2", 180 pounds? Shouldn't be a problem. I ran a 21:49 at 203 pounds. I'm 5'10".

Kirk Leach Tegucigalpa, Honduras

You could be right. My favourite (summer) workout is a 400
800 (1200) 1600 800 400. I try to keep a consistent mile pace for the first 3(4) intervals, then
push the final 800 and 400 a bit. I have been thinking about trying some 6:30 mile
repeats but I'm not sure how much recovery time to allow. I'm guessing that 4 minutes
might would be about right.

Quoted message said:

BTW, I did my best 5k when I was running 1200's and miles, not 400's and 800's. You might consider
miles at under 5k race pace.

-S- kbnj.comkbnj.comOpen ↗

Hi Donovan. I averaged 35 mi weeks during August, but I was never even able to get my 5 mi pace down
below 7:35. One thing I hardly ever do is run 2 days in a row, however. I'm thinking that maybe a
couple of weeks of running every day at the start of the season might give me a nudge....

Quoted message said:

Have you tried increasing milage ?

Quoted message said:

You might drop weight if you increase milage anyway. Or you might not. But you will get faster.

Cheers,

That seems to be what Donovan is saying too. I think I will shoot for 30-40 mpw anyway, come the
spring. How long do you think the adaptation might take, 3 weeks or so?

Thanks for the "guidelines". If you can run those times at 200+ they should certainly be attainable
at my weight (with the right training). Those are some pretty impressive times in general, let alone
for a big guy. How many years have you been running?

Quoted message said:

Well the size shouldn't be a problem. The mileage "20+" is. My PR's are 18:28 5K, 38:38 10K, and
3:10 Marathon at 5'11" and 200+ pounds. All in my late 30's but I did do 39:45 10K and a 1:29:25
half at 43. The later two were after my second knee surgery.

None of those were off 20-30 miles per week. Get yourself in the 40-50 MPW range, do one hard
tempo/interval/hill per week and a long run every other weekend. If you're going to run a decent
10K that long run should be 11-14 miles. You can do speed work until you're blue in the face and
it's not going to help much for anything over a mile if you don't have the volume. The weight will
take care of itself.

Keith Stone Winston Salem, NC

I've done the workout you mention and agree it's great although I manage my PR only after I bit the
bullet and tried doing 3 or even 4 mile repeats in a single workout.

Best of luck to you.

-S-

"Mike L" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You could be right. My favourite (summer) workout is a 400
800 (1200) 1600 800 400. I try to keep a consistent mile pace for the first 3(4) intervals, then
push the final 800 and 400 a bit. I have been thinking about trying some 6:30 mile
repeats but I'm not sure how much recovery time to allow. I'm guessing that 4 minutes
might would be about right.

Quoted message said:

BTW, I did my best 5k when I was running 1200's and miles, not 400's and 800's. You might
consider miles at under 5k race pace.

-S- kbnj.comkbnj.comOpen ↗

In article said:

Hi Donovan. I averaged 35 mi weeks during August, but I was never even able to get my 5 mi pace
down below 7:35. One thing I hardly ever do is run 2 days in a row, however. I'm thinking that
maybe a couple of weeks of running every day at the start of the season might give me a nudge....

You need to hold down that average for at least 12 weeks for the benefits to really kick in.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

[email hidden] (Mike L) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I used to run sporadically in my 20's. I never even thought about speed - at 6'2'' 155lbs it
wasn't a concern. After extensive time off from back and knee problems, I finally got back into
the gym a few years ago and converted all my middle-age spread to lean muscle. After that even
after a good year of 20+ mpw put me at solid 180. I guess I could starve myself but I'd really
like to keep what size I have. Problem is I'd like to run faster too, like maybe a 6-7 min pace
over mid to long distances. Is it possible to do 17 min 5k's and 35 min 10k's at my size? I'm
shooting for a sub 20 5k in the spring, but it just seems like the speed gains I make are
painfully hard to come by. I've tried 400m repeats, 800m repeats, pyramid repeats, hills. Should I
just bite the bullet and drop 10 lbs??

Two years ago at the weight of 192lbs...I ran a 37:59 10k - 1:24:40 HM and a 3:01 marathon...you
can do it.

Hey If you just did 30mpw with one or at most two interval/speed sessions per week in the coming
spring, there will be no reason to 'just drop' 10 lbs, because the weight loss will come by without
you even noticing it.

Let me just give oyu a little warning, if you are running 5k at around 20min there is quite a task
ahead of you to achieve your goal (17min 5k). But if you REALLY want to achieve the goal, here are
some advices, I think works
1. Keep training continuous, that is keep milage high 20+ if possible all year.
2. do at least one speed session a week, could be a high paced 3mile run around the local lake,
don't forget to warm up (and down!)
3. be prepared to increase milage as time goes by, all the way up to around 40-45 miles, and after
the increase you may have to do two speed sessions a week (now I'm talking a year or more ahead).
4. join a club, the intervals is a lot more fun,if other are suffering as well!

Hope you can use the advices, feel free to check out my pr.'s at my homepage under 'sports'

Erik Olsen
--

---------------
Erik Olsen
hells-kitchen.dkhells-kitchen.dkOpen ↗

- Harvey Keitel, Pulp Fiction.
"Mike L" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I used to run sporadically in my 20's. I never even thought about speed -

at

Quoted message said:

6'2'' 155lbs it wasn't a concern. After extensive time off from back and

knee

Quoted message said:

problems, I finally got back into the gym a few years ago and converted

all my

Quoted message said:

middle-age spread to lean muscle. After that even after a good year of 20+
mpw put me at solid 180. I guess I could starve myself but I'd really like

to

Quoted message said:

keep what size I have. Problem is I'd like to run faster too, like maybe a

6-7

Quoted message said:

min pace over mid to long distances. Is it possible to do 17 min 5k's and

35

Quoted message said:

min 10k's at my size? I'm shooting for a sub 20 5k in the spring, but it

just

Quoted message said:

seems like the speed gains I make are painfully hard to come by. I've

tried

Quoted message said:

400m repeats, 800m repeats, pyramid repeats, hills. Should I just bite the
bullet and drop 10 lbs??

Thanks. Nice homepage. I've been a big fan of JRR for almost 30 years. I just watched the extended 2
Towers DVD last night. I think it is the best of the three - although we will have to see what the
extended Return looks like. Regards. Mike Lazenby

(Mike L) said:

I used to run sporadically in my 20's. I never even thought about speed - at 6'2'' 155lbs it wasn't
a concern. After extensive time off from back and knee problems, I finally got back into the gym a
few years ago and converted all my middle-age spread to lean muscle.

Worry about developing strength, not losing your weight.

Coming just 3 days off a serious bout of food poisoning, not having eaten until today in about 4
days (not counting the food already eaten that was lost) and probably losing 10 lbs as a result, I'm
only at 50-60% strength and can barely even run up the stairs because of the muscle loss, where I
normally go 4 at a time without difficulty. Running, too, is out of the question for now. And I
don't even want to find out where things are at in the weight room.

This is coming less than a week off of doing long runs and high speed intervals even in the
same day...

Quoted message said:

Should I just bite the bullet and drop 10 lbs??

... so, obviously conditioning and even weight loss don't mean squat, if you don't have strength.

Brian Dickey said:

In a college jogging class, there was a weight lifting person who must have weighed 180. He did a
5:46 mile. So it's possible.

Of course it's possible. I did a 5:33 mile a few months ago between 190 and 200 and have been in the
5:35-6:00 range consistently the last couple years with the weight everywhere between 185 and 205
with no correlation between times and weights. The intervals I did a week ago added up to a mile
with an average pace of 3:59/mile -- first time ever under 4:00 even with intervals. And that was
around 190.

My problem there is I have an ACL graft and much of my cartilage is gone. Running is OK but I can't
go too heavy with load bearing excercises or my knee swells.

Quoted message said:

.... so, obviously conditioning and even weight loss don't

mean squat, if

Quoted message said:

you don't have strength.

In article said:

My problem there is I have an ACL graft and much of my cartilage is gone. Running is OK but I
can't go too heavy with load bearing excercises or my knee swells.

The end result of Mark's training philosophy is that he runs very impressive sprint times and
acceptable, but somewhat less impressive times in longer distances. Many of the posters here are
able to perform much better in endurance races, but most of those posters aren't as strong as he is.
Draw your own conclusions.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

(Mike L) said:

My problem there is I have an ACL graft and much of my cartilage is gone. Running is OK but I can't
go too heavy with load bearing excercises or my knee swells.

Oh, that's different. In the end that's probably the real reason distance runners tend to reduce
weight: not to lighten the load, but to reduce the stress on the joints and skeletal structure over
the long term.

After all, if weight were the real issue, women would be a lot faster than men for distance, since
they usually weigh less.

I got a stress fracture, which likely came from running with about 20 lbs of extra weight (a
portable computer) over the very 2-3 month period in which the stress fracture materialized
and worsened.