Total Immersion fins?

"M.W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, I'm getting back into swimming more now. There is another guy showing up most days, and we
do a warmup and a main set. But he's a lot faster than I am, and I need to get a pair of fins so I
can stay on his intervals.

That's a good way to overtrain, try to keep up wioth someone who is way better than you, by using
swimming aids that are likely to strain and over workyour muscles. Why not work on your own
intervals?

Quoted message said:

I wanted to order a pair of ScubaPro swim fins, but I can't find anyone here who will order them
for me. Apparently, the German distributor for ScubaPro has been so unreliable that none of the
Scandinavian dive shops will order from them anymore.

Falcon and Gabbiano (made in Italy by Francis) and Sprint (made in Greece by Balco) appear to be
among the most popular brands of fin used by Scandinavian swimmers. I have a pair of Balco Sprints,
whose foot pockets are very comfortable because they are a broad fit and made of soft rubber.

Quoted message said:

So I looked at the Total Immersion site, and they have fins for sale called Slim fins. I've never
tried them. Does anyone have any experience with them? What can you tell me? How do they compare
with some of the standard brands in performance and comfort (eg, ScubaPro, Churchills, Duck Feet)?

Slim Fins are made by Force Fins. Force Fins have their enthusiasts and their detractors in the
swimming and diving world, they tend to polarise opinion.

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:sk%kb.30925$gi2.15291@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

"M.W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, I'm getting back into swimming more now. There is another guy showing up most days, and we
do a warmup and a main set. But he's a lot faster than I am, and I need to get a pair of fins so
I can stay on his intervals.

That's a good way to overtrain, try to keep up wioth someone who is way better than you, by using
swimming aids that are likely to strain and over workyour muscles.

Thanks for the advice, but how would you come to that conclusion, given that you have only been
swimming for three months? There is no need to worry, though. I've been training in the pool for
more than forty years, and I've trained with fins for a good part of them. Fins have never caused
any strain or overwork of my muscles or joints. Actually, I don't even need to kick at all with
them, but I still go about 20 seconds faster per 100 meters.

Quoted message said:

Why not work on your own intervals?

Because we have one 25 meter lane, so if we both try to do different sets on different intervals, we
get in each other's way. and when others join in, the problem gets worse. Swimming a workout is more
efficient, and a lot more fun, when everybody in the lane does the same workout.

martin

"M.W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:sk%kb.30925$gi2.15291@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

"M.W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, I'm getting back into swimming more now. There is another guy showing up most days, and
we do a warmup and a main set. But he's a lot faster than I am, and I need to get a pair of
fins so I can stay on his intervals.

That's a good way to overtrain, try to keep up wioth someone who is way better than you, by
using swimming aids that are likely to strain and

over

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

workyour muscles.

Thanks for the advice, but how would you come to that conclusion, given

that

Quoted message said:

you have only been swimming for three months?

Because, unlike to your belief, I'm capable of learning, and I also have access to coaches that
combined have over 160 years of experience. For all I know, you could have been doing nothing but
one kind of a set permanently attached to your fins for the last 40 years. As closed minded as you
seem, I wouldn't be surprized.

Quoted message said:

There is no need to worry, though. I've been training in the pool for more than forty years, and
I've trained with fins for a good part of them. Fins have never caused any

strain

Quoted message said:

or overwork of my muscles or joints. Actually, I don't even need to kick

at

Quoted message said:

all with them, but I still go about 20 seconds faster per 100 meters.

Yea, that makes sense, no kicking with long fins will make you faster.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why not work on your own intervals?

Because we have one 25 meter lane, so if we both try to do different sets

on

Quoted message said:

different intervals, we get in each other's way. and when others join in, the problem gets worse.
Swimming a workout is more efficient, and a lot

more

Quoted message said:

fun, when everybody in the lane does the same workout.

Heh, I knew there was going to be an excuse.

Well, I hope you know what you're doing, for your own good.

DaKitty said:

Because, unlike to your belief, I'm capable of learning, and I also have access to coaches that
combined have over 160 years of experience. For all I know, you could have been doing nothing but
one kind of a set permanently attached to your fins for the last 40 years. As closed minded as you
seem, I wouldn't be surprized.

With all that experienced coaching available you will probably learn a lot. Apparently not about
using fins, though, if they've told you using them is likely to strain and overwork muscles. Used
properly, fins are mainly driven by the large muscles in the thighs, very hard to strain and
overwork those. Using fins can aggravate knee joint problems, if you are prone to such, but you can
minimize that problem by using the fins properly.

Quoted message said:

Yea, that makes sense, no kicking with long fins will make you faster.

We don't use diving fins for swimming. They are too slow, and they can cause injury to the
other swimmers.

Quoted message said:

Heh, I knew there was going to be an excuse.

If your 160 years worth of coaches are advising you to run multiple workouts in the same lane
simultaneously, then maybe you won't learn so much from them.

Quoted message said:

Well, I hope you know what you're doing, for your own good.

Thanks, I'm always watching out for the warning signs of repetitive stress injuries and
overtraining.

martin

martin is quite correct.

prolonged use of fins will not cause excess fatigue. due to the longer lever arm of a 'finned-up'
leg, the stress at the joint is greater, but only a worry if you have a pre-existing problem that
would be exacerbated by it. Nothing a lil ice wouldn't cure.

unless you're using a cropped fin such as a 'zoomer' or shooter, or whatever brand you use, its
almost impossible to attain a six beat kick, which martin alluded to.

my only concern would be that wearing them for long periods of yardage you may get
blisters...nothing an old pair of socks can't fix though 😄

fins and zoomers do have a tendency to alter kicking mechanics slightly, although i doubt that is a
major concern of yours if you're already 40 years into the business.

steve

"M.W.Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty said:

Because, unlike to your belief, I'm capable of learning, and I also have access to coaches that
combined have over 160 years of experience. For

all

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I know, you could have been doing nothing but one kind of a set

permanently

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

attached to your fins for the last 40 years. As closed minded as you seem, I wouldn't be
surprized.

With all that experienced coaching available you will probably learn a lot. Apparently not about
using fins, though, if they've told you using them is likely to strain and overwork muscles. Used
properly, fins are mainly driven by the large muscles in the thighs, very hard to strain and
overwork those. Using fins can aggravate knee joint problems, if you are prone to such, but you
can minimize that problem by using the fins properly.

Quoted message said:

Yea, that makes sense, no kicking with long fins will make you faster.

We don't use diving fins for swimming. They are too slow, and they can cause injury to the other
swimmers.

Quoted message said:

Heh, I knew there was going to be an excuse.

If your 160 years worth of coaches are advising you to run multiple workouts in the same lane
simultaneously, then maybe you won't learn so much from them.

Quoted message said:

Well, I hope you know what you're doing, for your own good.

Thanks, I'm always watching out for the warning signs of repetitive stress injuries and
overtraining.

martin

"M.W.Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty wrote:

.

Quoted message said:

If your 160 years worth of coaches are advising you to run multiple workouts in the same lane
simultaneously, then maybe you won't learn so much from them.

Heh... you-funny 😉

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, I hope you know what you're doing, for your own good.

Thanks, I'm always watching out for the warning signs of repetitive stress injuries and
overtraining.

Good deal.

diablo said:

martin is quite correct.

prolonged use of fins will not cause excess fatigue. due to the longer lever arm of a 'finned-up'
leg, the stress at the joint is greater, but only a worry if you have a pre-existing problem that
would be exacerbated by it. Nothing a lil ice wouldn't cure.

unless you're using a cropped fin such as a 'zoomer' or shooter, or whatever brand you use, its
almost impossible to attain a six beat kick, which martin alluded to.

my only concern would be that wearing them for long periods of yardage you may get
blisters...nothing an old pair of socks can't fix though 😄

fins and zoomers do have a tendency to alter kicking mechanics slightly, although i doubt that is
a major concern of yours if you're already 40 years into the business.

There are these two different uses of fins, the one that is for speed over a long distance, and the
one that is a kicking drill. The one for speed is basically the scuba diver's kick, almost all in
the upper leg with not much knee bend. The one for use as a kicking drill has more knee bend and a
lot of ankle flexing. The kicking drill form uses a lot more calories in the legs; it is meant to
improve the kick for swimming without fins. It produces a lot of speed, but it isn't sustainable
over a long distance, and, as you point out, it is difficult if not impossible to do a six beat kick
wearing normal fins.

The speed use of fins is just meant for going fast, staying on an interval that you wouldn't
otherwise be able to make. As a coach, I have used it in sessions where I have only one lane but a
lot of kids with differing ages and abilities. It allows me to assign a single interval to the lane
that all the kids can handle, and it gives the younger kids a bit of
psychological boost, when they are able to keep up with the faster kids. But as a coach I only do
this when limited lane space requires it.

As a swimmer, I use fins because I like to swim hard workouts with other swimmers, which means I'm
usually swimming with people who are faster than I am. But I'm a workout swimmer. I have never
enjoyed pool races. Swim meets and pool races are too stressful for me. I do enjoy the zen of the
open water race, but mostly, for me the good workout is an end in itself.

martin

thanks guys. I learned something today. I had no clue as to why people would wear fins. I have seen
the gadgets that fit on the hands, supposedly to help with the stroke. But, I have seen many people
using those hand things and they all were doing it wrong. Instead of the hand paddle improving their
stroke, these guys just swam with straight arms...something I don't think was intended by the paddle
designers. I could be wrong, though. I don't swim with straight arms....

Pat in TX

M.W.Smith <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message :
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The speed use of fins is just meant for going fast, staying on an interval that you wouldn't
otherwise be able to make.

This is another real interest of fins.

In the past, I couldn't do real long open water swims with my wife, because there was too much speed
difference (too boring for me, or too fast for her). With fins, she is swimming just as fast as I
am, and we are both taking great pleasure (and better security) swimming together.

-- Olivier

paddles are kind of a double edged sword imo. they have two benefits and applications for both age
groupers and seniors. as a stroke development tool, they offer a stablised surface area which gives
the less experienced swimmer an idea of when they are applying pressure in the correct place, and
when they are 'slipping', as well as acting as a brake so they don't tear through the water at the
incorrect hand pitch.

by the same token, they do this by increasing the resistance, and thereby give the swimmer a chance
to develop strength and endurance throughout the entire arm limb track...for freestyle anyway 😉
...hand paddles are notorious for altering breaststroke, backstroke and fly limb tracks horribly
unless you have fantastic RoM.

studies have shown that the muscle recruitment patterns are altered when using paddles - for novice
swimmers, thats a good hting. for seniors, it isn't. on top of that, if you have impingement, or
rotator cuff problems, they will increase the inflammation, just as if you added another 1/4 of the
yardage on top of what they're doing.

even though i usually am sceptical of gadgets to the Nth degree, i find Tyr's Catalyst paddles to be
preferable to the regular old-school speedo version for seniors, and vice versa for the age groupers
and developmental swimmers.

personally, i use them a great deal, especially the early third of the season, and a little longer
LC season. i know their pitfalls verywell, and for me, the pro'soutweigh the cons in 90% of the
swimmers i've worked with...for the remaining 10%, i just have them do it without paddles...

just my 2 cents.

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

thanks guys. I learned something today. I had no clue as to why people

would

Quoted message said:

wear fins. I have seen the gadgets that fit on the hands, supposedly to

help

Quoted message said:

with the stroke. But, I have seen many people using those hand things and they all were doing it
wrong. Instead of the hand paddle improving their stroke, these guys just swam with straight
arms...something I don't think was intended by the paddle designers. I could be wrong, though. I
don't swim with straight arms....

Pat in TX

i used to use them a lot, and tried to pull them out recently

but ive only been in the water for 2 months, and i really strained my shoulders

so i've cut them out for now

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

paddles are kind of a double edged sword imo. they have two benefits and applications for both
age groupers and seniors. as a stroke development tool, they offer a stablised surface area
which gives the less experienced swimmer an idea of when they are applying pressure in the
correct place,

and

Quoted message said:

when they are 'slipping', as well as acting as a brake so they don't tear through the water at the
incorrect hand pitch.

by the same token, they do this by increasing the resistance, and thereby give the swimmer a
chance to develop strength and endurance throughout the entire arm limb track...for freestyle
anyway 😉 ...hand paddles are notorious for altering breaststroke, backstroke and fly limb tracks

horribly

Quoted message said:

unless you have fantastic RoM.

studies have shown that the muscle recruitment patterns are altered when using paddles - for
novice swimmers, thats a good hting. for seniors, it isn't. on top of that, if you have
impingement, or rotator cuff problems, they will increase the inflammation, just as if you added
another 1/4 of

the

Quoted message said:

yardage on top of what they're doing.

even though i usually am sceptical of gadgets to the Nth degree, i find Tyr's Catalyst paddles to
be preferable to the regular old-school speedo version for seniors, and vice versa for the age
groupers and developmental swimmers.

personally, i use them a great deal, especially the early third of the season, and a little longer
LC season. i know their pitfalls verywell, and for me, the pro'soutweigh the cons in 90% of the
swimmers i've worked with...for the remaining 10%, i just have them do it without paddles...

just my 2 cents.

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

thanks guys. I learned something today. I had no clue as to why people

would

Quoted message said:

wear fins. I have seen the gadgets that fit on the hands, supposedly to

help

Quoted message said:

with the stroke. But, I have seen many people using those hand things

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they all were doing it wrong. Instead of the hand paddle improving

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stroke, these guys just swam with straight arms...something I don't

think

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was intended by the paddle designers. I could be wrong, though. I don't swim with straight
arms....

Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

personally, i use them a great deal, especially the early third of the season, and a little longer
LC season. i know their pitfalls verywell, and for me, the pro'soutweigh the cons in 90% of the
swimmers i've worked with...for the remaining 10%, i just have them do it without paddles...

just my 2 cents.

How do you keep your students from just altering their normal stroke to something weird or bizarre
just to make the paddles easier to use? The people I see using paddles swim one way without and
another with the paddles.

Pat

As far as I've heard, they're not there to improve stroke as much as they're there to increase
resistance, and build strength.

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

thanks guys. I learned something today. I had no clue as to why people

would

Quoted message said:

wear fins. I have seen the gadgets that fit on the hands, supposedly to

help

Quoted message said:

with the stroke. But, I have seen many people using those hand things and they all were doing it
wrong. Instead of the hand paddle improving their stroke, these guys just swam with straight
arms...something I don't think was intended by the paddle designers. I could be wrong, though. I
don't swim with straight arms....

Pat in TX

Pat said:

thanks guys. I learned something today. I had no clue as to why people would wear fins. I have
seen the gadgets that fit on the hands, supposedly to help with the stroke. But, I have seen many
people using those hand things and they all were doing it wrong. Instead of the hand paddle
improving their stroke, these guys just swam with straight arms...something I don't think was
intended by the paddle designers. I could be wrong, though. I don't swim with straight arms....

Paddles should have a warning printed on them like pull buoys do. It should say something like: Not
a speed increasing device. Do not use without supervision unless you have a correct armstroke.

As Steve explained, they have two uses. For a swimmer who has an incorrect stroke (where correct
means within a range, not exactly correct), paddles can quickly reveal the problem to the swimmer by
allowing him to feel the effect of the problem on his stroke as he pulls the paddle through the
water. The paddle will accentuate the problem. This use of paddles should really only be done under
supervision of a good coach, or they should be used by a swimmer who knows what a correct stroke
should feel like. The people you have seen using paddles with a straight arm pull will almost
certainly develop shoulder problems.

The other use of paddles is to increase strength in the shoulders, but this kind of use should be
restricted to no more than one set per session, IMO, because the shoulders will tire quickly and
become vulnerable to injury. The amount of use also depends on the size and structure of the paddles
selected. My favorite brand is Han's Paddles mplx.comoriginal.htmlOpen ↗ because they have
the holes in them, which let you pull harder for a longer set without risking injury. Also, [censored]
Hannula was my high school coach.

martin

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:px1nb.38135$gi2.30135@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

As far as I've heard, they're not there to improve stroke as much as

they're

Quoted message said:

there to increase resistance, and build strength.

Hand paddles are pretty much always advertised as improving stroke.

Increasing power/endurance is a side effect of such - i would be so bold as to say that the majority
of coaches use them as a strength training device over stroke development.

Quoted message said:

How do you keep your students from just altering their normal stroke to something weird or bizarre
just to make the paddles easier to use? The people I see using paddles swim one way without and
another with the paddles.

i don't know what kind of environment you're observing...rec master's swimmers perhaps? by the time
i get swimmers, they're pretty well refined (swimming age of 5-6 years), and i use them primarily as
power/endurance tools.

when i have worked with age groupers and developmental swimmers, all work is done by the 25, and
strict emphasis on what i'm working on.

"M.W.Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pat said:

thanks guys. I learned something today. I had no clue as to why people

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wear fins. I have seen the gadgets that fit on the hands, supposedly to

help

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with the stroke. But, I have seen many people using those hand things

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they all were doing it wrong. Instead of the hand paddle improving

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stroke, these guys just swam with straight arms...something I don't

think

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was intended by the paddle designers. I could be wrong, though. I don't swim with straight
arms....

Paddles should have a warning printed on them like pull buoys do. It should say something like:
Not a speed increasing device. Do not use without supervision unless you have a correct armstroke.

As Steve explained, they have two uses. For a swimmer who has an incorrect stroke (where correct
means within a range, not exactly correct), paddles can quickly reveal the problem to the swimmer
by allowing him to feel the effect of the problem on his stroke as he pulls the paddle through the
water. The paddle will accentuate the problem. This use of paddles should really only be done
under supervision of a good coach, or they should be used by a swimmer who knows what a correct
stroke should feel like. The people you have seen using paddles with a straight arm pull will
almost certainly develop shoulder problems.

Very well said.

Quoted message said:

The other use of paddles is to increase strength in the shoulders, but this kind of use should be
restricted to no more than one set per session, IMO, because the shoulders will tire quickly and
become vulnerable to injury. The amount of use also depends on the size and structure of the
paddles selected. My favorite brand is Han's Paddles mplx.comoriginal.htmlOpen ↗ because
they have the holes in them, which let you pull harder for a longer set without risking injury.
Also, [censored] Hannula was my high school coach.

martin

Nod Nod.

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:px1nb.38135$gi2.30135@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

As far as I've heard, they're not there to improve stroke as much as

they're

Quoted message said:

there to increase resistance, and build strength.

Hand paddles are pretty much always advertised as improving stroke.

Yea, I don't pay much attention to advertising, I tend to pay more attention to out coaches.

Quoted message said:

Increasing power/endurance is a side effect of such - i would be so bold

as

Quoted message said:

to say that the majority of coaches use them as a strength training device over stroke
development.

Our coaches use stroke drills for stroke development, sometimes we use paddles during stroke drills,
but I would guess this is 10% of the times. Just common sense wise, there are so many *different
shapes of paddles out there claiming to ipmrove your stroke... how can it be true. If something was
really helpful with that specific, there would be more coinsistency. Which is not to say that
paddles are not helpful in certain situations, but I think it all needs to be taken with a grain of
salt, and adjusted for a particular situation, rather than taking a generalized statement as some
sort of an absolute truth.