Touring Bike

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any comment on comparisons between the UK touring
bikes - Dawes and Thorn - and Amercian bikes such as Cannondale and
Heron, Atlantis etc?
I need to replace my 14 year old Trek for long distance touring and
reckon I can afford something a bit special.

Look at the Fuji Touring as well...

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

ken said:

Does anyone have any comment on comparisons between the UK touring
bikes - Dawes and Thorn - and Amercian bikes such as Cannondale and
Heron, Atlantis etc?
I need to replace my 14 year old Trek for long distance touring and
reckon I can afford something a bit special.

I don't see it's worth buying a Dawes or Thorn if you live in the US -
they're not that special.
--
Michael MacClancy

In article <[email hidden]>,

Michael MacClancy said:

ken said:

Does anyone have any comment on comparisons between the UK touring
bikes - Dawes and Thorn - and Amercian bikes such as Cannondale and
Heron, Atlantis etc? I need to replace my 14 year old Trek for long
distance touring and reckon I can afford something a bit special.

I don't see it's worth buying a Dawes or Thorn if you live in the US
- they're not that special.

They are compared to what's available here from the major manufacturers,
which is almost nothing. However, someone looking for a reasonably
priced bike designed with loaded touring in mind should look at the
Bruce Gordon BLT. It'd be cheaper than having a bike sent from the UK

Why eat hamburger when you already have filet mignon? Get a new Trek
520! Personally, while I would love something like a BG Rock and Road
or a Sakkit Great Divide Tour, I find you get get a Trek serviced
pretty much everywhere in the semi-civilized world (including Russia)
Spend a little less money, get a really good new bike and spend the
money you saved on some new panniers (Jandd has Mountain Panniers on
sale right now at Jandd.com) or a BoB Ibex.

Ride safe,
Hans

"and reckon I can afford something a bit special."

And I reckon we've got a Brit being snobbish and self-important here. But
for the benefit of everyone else, the two things to look for in a touring
bike are comfort and safety. And THE most important thing that makes a
touring bike comfortable is the saddle. It is the more or less universal
opinion of mankind and of womankind that the most comfortable saddle,
arguably the only comfortable saddle, is the Brooks leather saddle. My own
thought is that it makes a sense to get the widest model and get it with
springs. Others prefer a narrow hard thing stuck up their butt all day.
Your choice.

Any fairly long wheel base bicycle frame (significant space between rear
wheel and seat tube) with a Brooks saddle, wide-range of gearing (though low
gears are far more important than high ones for loaded touring that will
include mountain roads), and UPRIGHT handlebars will work fine. You will
usually have to kick and scream and make a scene to get a dealer to give you
upright handlebars, or put them on yourself. Of course if you prefer
chronically numb privates and hands and a sore back you could accede to the
dealers preferences and accept drop bars.

It is hardly any more an issue, but do not accept toe clips. They are
nicknamed toe traps for good reason. Even if you never snug them down, they
can be deadly in a fall. Get adjustable clipless pedals and keep them set
to their lowest tension setting. If they are Shimano, be sure to throw away
the black single-release cleats that come in the box with the pedals, and
get the silver metal colored multi-release cleats.

As another poster pointed out here, the Trek 520 is a fine, well-equipped
bicycle for about a thousand US dollars. I was in a local bike shop today
and saw a very similar bicycle sold under the brand name Jamis, which sells
for $800. The Jamis is made in China and my suspicion is that it is not
just similar to the Trek 520, but that it IS the Trek 520, minus the brand
name. Of course a perfectly satisfactory Toyota will never satisfy our
snobbish friend who insists on an upscale but mechanically worthless Jaguar.
He might have to put a "Made in Switzerland" decal over the "Made in China"
sticker in order to not lose face. You know how these orientals are about
face.

One of the most important issues about preparing for loaded touring has
nothng to do with the bicycle. It is the everything else. My advice is to
get the smallest panniers you can find. You can even go the whole way, as I
did, and get two pair of front panniers and use one pair for rear panniers.
Then take only what you can pack in those dinky panniers. The less you
take, the better your trip will be. Your bike will be lighter, your knees
will be happier, and you will select what you take much more carefully and
you will be more pleased with the result. When packing for bicycle touring,
less truly is more.

Oh and one last thing, you will only have room for one pair of shoes, so
take a pair of cleated bike shoes that are comfortable to walk and hike in.
They are not going to be just your bike shoes, they are going to be your
only shoes.

You already know to fit your bike with a flashing red light for the rear
rack, and to put reflective tape on your helmet, heels, and pedals, so I
don't have to mention those.

..

"ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any comment on comparisons between the UK touring
bikes - Dawes and Thorn - and Amercian bikes such as Cannondale and
Heron, Atlantis etc?
I need to replace my 14 year old Trek for long distance touring and
reckon I can afford something a bit special.

This is mostly a good summary, but I strongly disagree on one point
below:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

....

Quoted message said:

Any fairly long wheel base bicycle frame (significant space between rear
wheel and seat tube) with a Brooks saddle, wide-range of gearing (though low
gears are far more important than high ones for loaded touring that will
include mountain roads), and UPRIGHT handlebars will work fine. You will
usually have to kick and scream and make a scene to get a dealer to give you
upright handlebars, or put them on yourself. Of course if you prefer
chronically numb privates and hands and a sore back you could accede to the
dealers preferences and accept drop bars.

I think drop bars mounted high are the best choice for touring, because
it gives you the widest range of hand positions. Mount them high, at
least even with the top of the saddle, maybe even above. This lets you
sit up and look around without craning your neck. But you can still get
low in the drops to get somewhat out of the wind if the need arises.
And you can move your hands around to many different positions at any
time to keep them loose and comfortable.

....

Quoted message said:

As another poster pointed out here, the Trek 520 is a fine, well-equipped
bicycle for about a thousand US dollars. I was in a local bike shop today
and saw a very similar bicycle sold under the brand name Jamis, which sells
for $800. The Jamis is made in China and my suspicion is that it is not
just similar to the Trek 520, but that it IS the Trek 520, minus the brand
name.

No, Jamis is not a Trek, but it's a similar bike. Fuji also makes a
good steel-framed tourer for around $800.

.....

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jack Kessler said:

"and reckon I can afford something a bit special."

And I reckon we've got a Brit being snobbish and self-important here.

<snipped self-important and snobbish opinions>

Pot, kettle, black?

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Jack Kessler" <[email hidden]> top posted:

Quoted message said:

"and reckon I can afford something a bit special."

And I reckon we've got a Brit being snobbish and self-important here.

Australian, it would appear, based on checking the domain name of the
OP. Not a people one automatically thinks of as self-important. All
the Aussie's I've met have been very down-home and utterly hilarious.

Quoted message said:

But for the benefit of everyone else, the two things to look for in a
touring bike are comfort and safety. And THE most important thing
that makes a touring bike comfortable is the saddle. It is the more
or less universal opinion of mankind and of womankind that the most
comfortable saddle, arguably the only comfortable saddle, is the
Brooks leather saddle. My own thought is that it makes a sense to
get the widest model and get it with springs. Others prefer a narrow
hard thing stuck up their butt all day. Your choice.

This is not even remotely a consensus. Many American cyclists seem to
hate Brooks saddles and never get comfortable on them, as far as I've
been able to tell over the past 30+ years of cycling. Just because I
happen to prefer Brooks saddles and have them on almost all my bikes
doesn't mean they are the best choice for anyone else. Jobst Brandt
quite famously referred to Brooks saddles as "ass hatchets."

Quoted message said:

Any fairly long wheel base bicycle frame (significant space between
rear wheel and seat tube) with a Brooks saddle, wide-range of gearing
(though low gears are far more important than high ones for loaded
touring that will include mountain roads), and UPRIGHT handlebars
will work fine. You will usually have to kick and scream and make a
scene to get a dealer to give you upright handlebars, or put them on
yourself. Of course if you prefer chronically numb privates and
hands and a sore back you could accede to the dealers preferences and
accept drop bars.

More [censored]. Learn something about bike fitting, eh?

Quoted message said:

It is hardly any more an issue, but do not accept toe clips. They are
nicknamed toe traps for good reason.

Toe clips are not nicknamed "toe straps." Never have been. A toe clip
is one thing, a toe strap is a different thing. Do you actually have
any idea of what you are talking about?

Quoted message said:

Even if you never snug them down, they can be deadly in a fall. Get
adjustable clipless pedals and keep them set to their lowest tension
setting. If they are Shimano, be sure to throw away the black
single-release cleats that come in the box with the pedals, and get
the silver metal colored multi-release cleats.

Some people prefer the single release cleats. I don't personally like
SPDs at all and use either good old quill pedals with PowerGrips or
Speedplay Frogs.

Quoted message said:

As another poster pointed out here, the Trek 520 is a fine,
well-equipped bicycle for about a thousand US dollars. I was in a
local bike shop today and saw a very similar bicycle sold under the
brand name Jamis, which sells for $800. The Jamis is made in China
and my suspicion is that it is not just similar to the Trek 520, but
that it IS the Trek 520, minus the brand name. Of course a
perfectly satisfactory Toyota will never satisfy our snobbish friend
who insists on an upscale but mechanically worthless Jaguar. He might
have to put a "Made in Switzerland" decal over the "Made in China"
sticker in order to not lose face. You know how these orientals are
about face.

Uh-huh. Charming. So you've mistaken the OP for a British snob and
added a dose of racism to boot. And somehow conflated "orientals" and a
group of people who would be practically the definition of "Occidentals."

Quoted message said:

One of the most important issues about preparing for loaded touring
has nothng to do with the bicycle. It is the everything else. My
advice is to get the smallest panniers you can find. You can even go
the whole way, as I did, and get two pair of front panniers and use
one pair for rear panniers. Then take only what you can pack in those
dinky panniers. The less you take, the better your trip will be.
Your bike will be lighter, your knees will be happier, and you will
select what you take much more carefully and you will be more pleased
with the result. When packing for bicycle touring, less truly is
more.

Something we agree on. I prefer to use a saddlebag such as a Carradice
or Baggins Hoss. But I don't camp, so I don't need to carry much stuff
at all. If one wants to camp, one will need to haul more stuff.

Quoted message said:

Oh and one last thing, you will only have room for one pair of shoes,
so take a pair of cleated bike shoes that are comfortable to walk and
hike in. They are not going to be just your bike shoes, they are
going to be your only shoes.

Hey, something else we agree on!

Quoted message said:

You already know to fit your bike with a flashing red light for the
rear rack, and to put reflective tape on your helmet, heels, and
pedals, so I don't have to mention those.

And you shouldn't have. In many parts of the world, flashing lights on
a bicycle are illegal.

Tim McNamara said:

Quoted message said:

It is hardly any more an issue, but do not accept toe clips. They are
nicknamed toe traps for good reason.

Toe clips are not nicknamed "toe straps." Never have been. A toe clip
is one thing, a toe strap is a different thing. Do you actually have
any idea of what you are talking about?

The OP didn't write "toe straps", he wrote "toe traps" and a bit of
googling demonstrates that the things are indeed nicknamed "toe traps" by
some people. e.g.

% Try riding without the straps for a while, as a transition. I find
% having my feet strapped in intimidating. The toe traps will still hold
% your foot quite well.
% You will have zero problem getting your foot free.

Most of your other comments were sensible.
--
Michael MacClancy

Yep, Australian I am. With modest tastes in most things and after many
years and 20,000k of touring on a fairly ordinary bike I have decided
to spend a bit more money. Sorry if that offends anyone. (I do drive my
cars for about 12 years).
For anyone interested, I have ordered a Surley Long Haul Trucker with
Deore LX drive train. And Euro bars.
I do use toe clips as I find them, and the shoes, most versatile for
touring. And because I can't get cleated shoes wide enough to fit.
Thanks for all the suggestions.

Jack Kessler said:

"and reckon I can afford something a bit special."

And I reckon we've got a Brit being snobbish and self-important here. But
for the benefit of everyone else, the two things to look for in a touring
bike are comfort and safety. And THE most important thing that makes a
touring bike comfortable is the saddle. It is the more or less universal
opinion of mankind and of womankind that the most comfortable saddle,
arguably the only comfortable saddle, is the Brooks leather saddle. My own
thought is that it makes a sense to get the widest model and get it with
springs. Others prefer a narrow hard thing stuck up their butt all day.
Your choice.

Wide saddles are for people with big arses that ride very upright. Wide
saddles are uncomfortable for long rides because the wide perch
interferes with the natural excursion of the legs (you will get
hamstring cramps).

Quoted message said:

Any fairly long wheel base bicycle frame (significant space between rear
wheel and seat tube) with a Brooks saddle, wide-range of gearing (though low
gears are far more important than high ones for loaded touring that will
include mountain roads), and UPRIGHT handlebars will work fine. You will
usually have to kick and scream and make a scene to get a dealer to give you
upright handlebars, or put them on yourself. Of course if you prefer
chronically numb privates and hands and a sore back you could accede to the
dealers preferences and accept drop bars.

What on earth are you talking about? Drop bars are the best for any
long rides. That one hand position with the shoulders unnaturally
rotated inward, forcing pressure on the ulnar nerve, is less preferred
over the anatomically natural (thumbs up) position of a drop bar. You
get several postions that relieve back strain and give the hands and
shoulders a break. Also, drop bars do not automatically make the perch
low. You can easily have handlebars level with the saddle.

Quoted message said:

It is hardly any more an issue, but do not accept toe clips. They are
nicknamed toe traps for good reason. Even if you never snug them down, they
can be deadly in a fall.

???? Deadly in a fall????

Quoted message said:

Get adjustable clipless pedals and keep them set
to their lowest tension setting.

Why? That might be good advice for learning but experienced users want
a stronger connection.

Quoted message said:

If they are Shimano, be sure to throw away
the black single-release cleats that come in the box with the pedals, and
get the silver metal colored multi-release cleats.

That is complete and utter nonsense. In most cases you are talking
about pursuing unwanted release. You might go to Shimano's website and
read about it.

Quoted message said:

As another poster pointed out here, the Trek 520 is a fine, well-equipped
bicycle for about a thousand US dollars. I was in a local bike shop today
and saw a very similar bicycle sold under the brand name Jamis, which sells
for $800. The Jamis is made in China and my suspicion is that it is not
just similar to the Trek 520, but that it IS the Trek 520, minus the brand
name. Of course a perfectly satisfactory Toyota will never satisfy our
snobbish friend who insists on an upscale but mechanically worthless Jaguar.
He might have to put a "Made in Switzerland" decal over the "Made in China"
sticker in order to not lose face. You know how these orientals are about
face.

One of the most important issues about preparing for loaded touring has
nothng to do with the bicycle. It is the everything else. My advice is to
get the smallest panniers you can find. You can even go the whole way, as I
did, and get two pair of front panniers and use one pair for rear panniers.
Then take only what you can pack in those dinky panniers. The less you
take, the better your trip will be. Your bike will be lighter, your knees
will be happier, and you will select what you take much more carefully and
you will be more pleased with the result. When packing for bicycle touring,
less truly is more.

Oh and one last thing, you will only have room for one pair of shoes, so
take a pair of cleated bike shoes that are comfortable to walk and hike in.
They are not going to be just your bike shoes, they are going to be your
only shoes.

You already know to fit your bike with a flashing red light for the rear
rack, and to put reflective tape on your helmet, heels, and pedals, so I
don't have to mention those.

But you did ....

Robin Hubert

Quoted message said:

It is hardly any more an issue, but do not accept toe clips. They are
nicknamed toe traps for good reason. Even if you never snug them down, they
can be deadly in a fall.

I've done over 20,000 miles on pedals with toe clips and never had a
problem. I use SPDs for regular road riding but prefer clips for
touring. They are simpler and less likely to be a problem. And if
they become a problem it's easy to get a replacement pedal almost
anywhere.