touring bike shifters

raisethe said:

In fact I need to make a panic buy as both of my budget bikes are
giving me problems. I am planning to get a Thorn Club Tour next week.
I will therefore have to put off the purchase of a more exotic bike
for a year or two.

Should I opt for bar end shifters or pay an extra £100 for sti? I have
no experience of either but I ride mostly on the tops.

If used to a frame shifter, then bar-ends are pretty similar. They are also
very reliable, more reliable than STIs.

STI's are nice, though will have some interference with a bar-bag if you use
one (you can work the cables round a bar bag).
Campag ergo shifters are an alternative to Shimano STI, though you need to
do a tiny bit of research into the interworking between Shimano and Campag
(interworking is better than the makers and many bike shops would have you
believe).

Quoted message said:

I may take advantage of the dynamo systems being offered with the
bike. Does £80 represent good value for a b & m set? Alternatively
would a £34 budget 'union' set have reasonable longevity for use as
a back-up and for emergencies?

Both prices strike me as full list price. You should be able to save money
from other suppliers, considerably cheaper if importing from Germany. I
guess SJS are fitting them for you, which you may regard as a benefit over
fitting yourself.

If you just need emergency lighting, then would battery operated LED be OK ?
(I mean front LEDs bright enough to light the road).

If after regular lighting, then I'd be tempted towards a Shimano hub dynamo
(or the SON at a higher price) and a suitable headlamp, keeping a standard
wheel for the summer. If its a money issue, then I'd have the hub dynamo
over the STI levers.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

raisethe said:

I may take advantage of the dynamo systems being offered with the bike.
Does £80 represent good value for a b & m set?

Depends what the set /is/ as BuM do quite a range of both dynamos
and lamps to suit different budget areas. See
http://kinetics.org.uk/html/parts.shtml for a range and typical UK
prices.

What I would advise if you're going for a dynamo is to get a hub
mounted system to provide the juice. The SON is the badger's
nadgers option but the Shimano 370 is a very significant part as
good for half the money and IMHO either is vastly preferable to a
bottle system. You'll find those on the Kinetics site too. You
pay more, but you get more (or rather less: less noise, less fuss,
less drag, less (i.e. no) slipping problems in wet weather, less
fiddly to mount. Just plain /better/.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On 21/10/2006 17:45, Peter Clinch said,

Quoted message said:

What I would advise if you're going for a dynamo is to get a hub mounted
system to provide the juice. The SON is the badger's nadgers option but
the Shimano 370 is a very significant part as good for half the money

I have a Shimano 3N71, and it is brilliant, literally - the lights are
on full power from a very low speed. It's quiet, low drag, and just
works. What more can you want? (I know, a SON which has even less drag!)

As far as shifters go, I've been using bar end shifters for years. I
would like to change to the "Shimergo" system (Shimano rear end, Campag
shifters and a bit of jiggery-pokery) but it's a bit too much money.
The Campag shifters don't have the STI washing lines flapping out of the
hoods getting in the way of the bar bag.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

in message <[email hidden]>,

raisethe (') said:

Should I opt for bar end shifters or pay an extra £100 for sti? I have
no experience of either but I ride mostly on the tops.

Pay the extra.

Quoted message said:

I may take advantage of the dynamo systems being offered with the bike.
Does £80 represent good value for a b & m set?

I'd be inclined to ask the shop how much they'd charge for fitting a Nexus
hub dynamo - or if you're feeling really flush a SON. Bottle dynamos
(which run on the side of the tyre) are nowhere near as satisfactory as
hub dynamos, which really are the best answer to lighting on a road bike.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; It appears that /dev/null is a conforming XSL processor.

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul Boyd

(') said:

On 21/10/2006 17:45, Peter Clinch said,

Quoted message said:

What I would advise if you're going for a dynamo is to get a hub mounted
system to provide the juice. The SON is the badger's nadgers option but
the Shimano 370 is a very significant part as good for half the money

I have a Shimano 3N71, and it is brilliant, literally - the lights are
on full power from a very low speed. It's quiet, low drag, and just
works. What more can you want? (I know, a SON which has even less
drag!)

As far as shifters go, I've been using bar end shifters for years. I
would like to change to the "Shimergo" system (Shimano rear end, Campag
shifters and a bit of jiggery-pokery) but it's a bit too much money.
The Campag shifters don't have the STI washing lines flapping out of the
hoods getting in the way of the bar bag.

It's cheaper to buy Campag ergos and derailleurs than just Shimano STIs of
the same quality. Campag have a reputation for being expensive, but the
mid-range groupsets aren't, and the quality is good; and if you go all
Campag there's no washing lines and no jiggery-pokery.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Age equals angst multiplied by the speed of fright squared.
;; the Worlock

In article <[email hidden]>
raisethe <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Should I opt for bar end shifters or pay an extra £100 for sti? I have
no experience of either but I ride mostly on the tops.

Of the two I'd go for bar end shifters, but I still use downtube
shifters so what do I know? Well, I do know that STI shifters are
really expensive and you can't get spares for them ...

in message <[email hidden]>, Rob Morley

(') said:

In article <[email hidden]>
raisethe <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Should I opt for bar end shifters or pay an extra £100 for sti? I have
no experience of either but I ride mostly on the tops.

Of the two I'd go for bar end shifters, but I still use downtube
shifters so what do I know? Well, I do know that STI shifters are
really expensive and you can't get spares for them ...

You can't for STIs but you can for Campag Ergos, which, quality for
quality, are considerably cheaper anyway.

Yes, I know Chorus and Record are more expensive than DuraAce, but they
share exactly the same internals as Centaur, which is a lot cheaper than
DuraAce, and, like DuraAce but unlike Record or Chorus, has aluminium
levers.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Semper in faecibus sumus, sole profundum variat.

In article <[email hidden]>

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Rob Morley

(') said:

In article <[email hidden]>
raisethe <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Should I opt for bar end shifters or pay an extra £100 for sti? I have
no experience of either but I ride mostly on the tops.

Of the two I'd go for bar end shifters, but I still use downtube
shifters so what do I know? Well, I do know that STI shifters are
really expensive and you can't get spares for them ...

You can't for STIs but you can for Campag Ergos, which, quality for
quality, are considerably cheaper anyway.

That's why I said "of the two". I don't have experience of the Campag
shifters, but from what I've read they would be my choice if I was
shopping for that sort of thing.
I don't think SJS are offering the OP a Campag option, so it's a moot
point anyway.

I'm the OP. Thanks to everyone for your observations and comments.

My choice is specifically between bar end shifters and sti. It would
appear then that the former are preferable because they are cheaper,
more reliable, have spare parts available and can be converted to
friction mode in the event of a failure whilst on tour.

I think that either system would require me to take my hands off the
top of the bars to change gear which is a bit of a pain given how many
gear changes are made on modern bikes.

Simon, why do you recommend that I go for the sti?

On dynamos, the general opinion appears to be that the bottle type are
not worth the trouble. The hub dynamos appear to be the way to go in
the long term but I won't go down that line yet until I resolve my rear
wheel issues. For the sake of convenience I am looking for low weight
reliable lighting that can be permanently attached to my bikes and do
not need to be recharged. They do not need to be powerful. I then wish
to use a second set of more powerful removable lights for those rides
where I plan to be riding in the dark. This system means that I will
have back-up in case of a failure at night and alternatively if I
forget to recharge the removable lights the day before I go for a ride,
at least I will be able to fall back on the permanent lights.

So is anyone aware of any low weight reliable lights that can be
permanently attached to my bike and do not need to be recharged?

I currently have two bicycles, soon I will have three. All of them will
be ridden on dark unlit country roads and therefore require two sets
of lights, a total of six sets! I only ride one bike at a time so it
would be preferable to have one removable set for all three bikes. Do
any of the light manufacturers allow you to purchase more than one
fitting kit when you buy their lights so that you can use one light on
more than one bike?

Thanks
Ray

On 21/10/2006 22:14, Simon Brooke said,

Quoted message said:

It's cheaper to buy Campag ergos and derailleurs than just Shimano STIs of
the same quality. Campag have a reputation for being expensive, but the
mid-range groupsets aren't, and the quality is good; and if you go all
Campag there's no washing lines and no jiggery-pokery.

I can't afford Shimano STI either :-) Another problem with the setup
dawned on me after my previous post - I've just put V-brakes on my tourer...

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

"raisethe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm the OP. Thanks to everyone for your observations and comments.

My choice is specifically between bar end shifters and sti. It would
appear then that the former are preferable because they are cheaper,
more reliable, have spare parts available and can be converted to
friction mode in the event of a failure whilst on tour.

I think that either system would require me to take my hands off the
top of the bars to change gear which is a bit of a pain given how many
gear changes are made on modern bikes.

I spend most of my time on dropped-bar bikes on the brake hoods, so no hand
movement required. (hands are also near brakes then).

Quoted message said:

On dynamos, the general opinion appears to be that the bottle type are
not worth the trouble.

I used cheap union bottle 'mos for years without too much hassle. Ok, the
last one in regular use did have a sock between pannier and bottle pushing
it onto the tyre in the wet, but it wasn't new and did work :-)

If I was strapped for cash I'd consider one again - I'm not organised enough
for battery lights. Now I'm old and can build wheels I can afford hub
dynamos everywhere :-)

For the 35 quid do you get a back light and front halogen? Seems a bit
steep, given the individual parts prices.

cheers,
clive

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Rob

Morley (') said:

In article <[email hidden]>
raisethe <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Should I opt for bar end shifters or pay an extra £100 for sti? I
have no experience of either but I ride mostly on the tops.

Of the two I'd go for bar end shifters, but I still use downtube
shifters so what do I know? Well, I do know that STI shifters are
really expensive and you can't get spares for them ...

You can't for STIs but you can for Campag Ergos, which, quality for
quality, are considerably cheaper anyway.

Yes, I know Chorus and Record are more expensive than DuraAce, but
they share exactly the same internals as Centaur,

Not exactly, but Chorus and Record 2006* Ergos are indeed very similar to
Centaur, Veloce and Mirage 2006* Ergos. Internals are the same with 06*
Centaur, Veloce and Mirage.

2007 Centaur, Veloce and Mirage Ergos are similar to 2006* Xenon - which are
more durable but less functional with only one click at a time to smaller
sprockets.

Anyway, Ray, Campag Ergos may be cheaper to obtain than you think if you're
only aware of the usual retail prices. Have a look on eBay and at the
roadie dealer sites. Check whether cables are included. DotBike and
Cycling Bargains include them, Parker International don't any more.

* and earlier

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>,

raisethe (') said:

I think that either system would require me to take my hands off the
top of the bars to change gear which is a bit of a pain given how many
gear changes are made on modern bikes.

Simon, why do you recommend that I go for the sti?

Well, fundamentally, because you can operate them while firmly grasping the
bars (or, really, hoods) with both hands, and they're very comfortable and
easy to operate. They would require you to take your hands off the top of
the bars to operate, but only in so far as they'd require you to move your
hands to an alternate but for most people equally comfortable position.

If you're comfortable on the tops but not comfortable on the hoods then
it's possible that either

(i) your stem is slightly too long, or
(ii) your saddle is slightly too far back, or
(iii) your brake levers are not positioned high enough on the bars.

The fashion in the 1960s and seventies was to fit the hoods so that the
body of the hood was almost horizontal. As hoods have become more
comfortable to hold they have gradually migrated up the bars until the
body of the hood tends to point upwards at about 30 degrees or even more.

Basically what I'm saying to you is that if the hoods are not comfortable
to ride on you should think about why not. Having an alternate comfortable
position will not only make gear changing (with STIs or Ergos) much
easier, but will also allow you to rest and relax your arms on long
journeys by using alternate positions, to it's an all round good thing.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; may contain traces of nuts, bolts or washers.

in message <[email hidden]>,

raisethe (') said:

On dynamos, the general opinion appears to be that the bottle type are
not worth the trouble. The hub dynamos appear to be the way to go in
the long term but I won't go down that line yet until I resolve my rear
wheel issues. For the sake of convenience I am looking for low weight
reliable lighting that can be permanently attached to my bikes and do
not need to be recharged. They do not need to be powerful. I then wish
to use a second set of more powerful removable lights for those rides
where I plan to be riding in the dark. This system means that I will
have back-up in case of a failure at night and alternatively if I
forget to recharge the removable lights the day before I go for a ride,
at least I will be able to fall back on the permanent lights.

I used bottle and under-the-bottom-bracket dynamos for years. They're OK,
but suffer from a number of problems

(i) they're ugly.
(ii) they tend to slip in wet weather, and horrible wet nights are just
when you need your lights to be most effective.
(iii) they are much harder work - much more friction - than hub dynamos.
(iv) they're often noisy.

Hub dynamos are much better. And since they fit in the front wheel, the
problems with your back wheel won't affect them.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

...but have you *seen* the size of the world wide spider?

raisethe said:

I'm the OP. Thanks to everyone for your observations and comments.

My choice is specifically between bar end shifters and sti. It would
appear then that the former are preferable because they are cheaper,
more reliable, have spare parts available and can be converted to
friction mode in the event of a failure whilst on tour.

I think that either system would require me to take my hands off the
top of the bars to change gear which is a bit of a pain given how many
gear changes are made on modern bikes.

Though I was one of those saying bar-ends (you said reliability was a key
issue), a STI or Campag Ergo system is usually to hand all the time. Most
riders on a well setup bike will ride with their hands on the top of the
brake hoods, and the gear clicking controls are at your fingertips. They
are a delight to use, I have Campag Ergo shifters on one of my bikes.

Quoted message said:

On dynamos, the general opinion appears to be that the bottle type are
not worth the trouble.

I think that is over negative. Bottle types do work, but have a number of
negative features which are not found on hub dynamos. For "sometimes" use,
or low price dynamos, they are fine (I use a bottle on one of my bikes, the
one I leave at the railway station).

An alternative to hub or bottles is the spoke dynamo which FER make; its
cheap at around £20 (lights extra). To operate it you flip a little tab
into the spokes (when stopped!!), and flip the tab out when you want the
lights off. So it imposes no loads when not in use.
I've not used one, but I believe its OK for the money, though I would expect
hub dynamos to be better.
http://www2.westfalia.net/ and look under "car accessories".
The FER is at the top of the page, with a few other bicycle parts.

So, for a no batteries, but economical lighting setup:
FER spoke dynamo £20.
B&M basic round headlamp (without standlight) £13.
B&M mudguard mounting dynamo LED tail lamp with stand light £18.
( I consider a stand-light to the rear to be so much better than something
which goes out when you stop, the stand-light front lamps are from around
£30).

Alternative, a bit brighter at the front:
FER dynamo £20
B&M front lamp, with uprated 3W bulb. £17
Two battery operated LED rear lamps, say £10 each for reasonable quality.

Quoted message said:

The hub dynamos appear to be the way to go in
the long term but I won't go down that line yet until I resolve my
rear wheel issues. For the sake of convenience I am looking for low
weight reliable lighting that can be permanently attached to my bikes
and do not need to be recharged. They do not need to be powerful. I
then wish to use a second set of more powerful removable lights for
those rides where I plan to be riding in the dark. This system means
that I will have back-up in case of a failure at night and
alternatively if I forget to recharge the removable lights the day
before I go for a ride, at least I will be able to fall back on the
permanent lights.

You may find that your "second battery system" never gets used if you have a
decent hub dynamo.

Quoted message said:

So is anyone aware of any low weight reliable lights that can be
permanently attached to my bike and do not need to be recharged?

Quoted message said:

I currently have two bicycles, soon I will have three. All of them
will be ridden on dark unlit country roads and therefore require two
sets of lights, a total of six sets! I only ride one bike at a time
so it would be preferable to have one removable set for all three
bikes. Do any of the light manufacturers allow you to purchase more
than one fitting kit when you buy their lights so that you can use
one light on more than one bike?

I would expect you can purchase mount kits for the better grades of lamps.
People like Lumicycle would be fine in that respect.

There might be an option for hub dynamo or battery with SolidLights. Don't
know if their dynamo model can also be run from batteries as well.
Inoled (German firm, not aware of a UK supplier) are cheaper than
SolidLights, and offer two different lamp which can be powered from either
hub dynamo or battery pack. Peter White (US dealer) has reviewed the beam
patterns between Inoled, Solidlights, SON E6 (best/most expensive
conventional bulb dynamo lamp) and some others.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

In article <[email hidden]>
Paul Boyd <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

I can't afford Shimano STI either :-) Another problem with the setup
dawned on me after my previous post - I've just put V-brakes on my tourer...

You could use those pull-converter gizmos to get around that.

In article <[email hidden]>
raisethe <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

On dynamos, the general opinion appears to be that the bottle type are
not worth the trouble. The hub dynamos appear to be the way to go in
the long term but I won't go down that line yet until I resolve my rear
wheel issues. For the sake of convenience I am looking for low weight
reliable lighting that can be permanently attached to my bikes and do
not need to be recharged. They do not need to be powerful. I then wish
to use a second set of more powerful removable lights for those rides
where I plan to be riding in the dark. This system means that I will
have back-up in case of a failure at night and alternatively if I
forget to recharge the removable lights the day before I go for a ride,
at least I will be able to fall back on the permanent lights.

So is anyone aware of any low weight reliable lights that can be
permanently attached to my bike and do not need to be recharged?

Bottle dynamos :-) They're really not that bad as long as they're
properly set up. I used to have a bottle dynamo attached upside-down to
the rack of my ATB (the rear light and mudguard were also attached to
the rack, so I could remove the whole lot by undoing three bolts) - it
was reliable, not particularly noisy, didn't drag noticeably and
produced adequate output.

On 22/10/2006 20:37, Rob Morley said,

Quoted message said:

You could use those pull-converter gizmos to get around that.

I could. Just seems a bit inelegant!

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Clive George said:

Quoted message said:

For the 35 quid do you get a back light and front halogen?>

Yes, includes halogen front and back light with bottle and brackets,
presumably fitting costs included too. It does say the lighting is for
'standby' whatever that means. This could be the way to go in addition
to a set of removable lights.