Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

Track hub lockring threads - Mavic Ellipse - [updated]

Kinky Cowboy · 2004-12-24T20:09:20+00:00

Just got some of the lovely new Mavic Ellipse track wheels, and I don't think I have a lockring for the rear hub. The Shimano Dura Ace doesn't go on at all, the Miche fits and works but seems loose radially, although the thread pitch is obviously right the diameter seems about 0.5mm too big. Sheldon http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_tp-z.html lists these English/ISO 1.32" x 24 TPI (1.32"=33.53mm) Campagnolo/Phil Wood 1.29" x 24 TPI (1.29"=32.77mm) Old French 33 mm x 1.0 mm Which doesn't seem to tell me about Miche or Shimano. Business Cycles http://www.businesscycles.com/tr-refspec.htm#hub offer the rather different interpretation 33.5 mm. x 24 TPI Campagnolo, Gipiemme, Phil Wood, Miche 1.29" x 24 TPI Shimano, Suntour, Suzue, Surly, Zipp, Corima [24tpi is a pitch of 1.06mm] [Phil Wood's own site lists 33.5mm x 24 tpi] Which fits my experience; the Miche 33.5x1.06 being too big for my, presumably 33.0x1.0 French Mavic hub, and the Dura Ace both too small and the wrong pitch. [obviously, the Miche has the wrong pitch too, but the combination of being over size and normal thread tolerance (backlash) means you would expect 4.24mm of female thread to go over 4.00mm of male thread] [I've now measured my Mavic hub, and it's 33.08mm over the lockring threads, which seems like 33.0 within the tolerance of Mavic's factory and my caliper. I don't have a thread guage, and with only 4 thread turns, it's hard to get any kind of accurate measurement] While I'm having a rant, what the hell is wrong with manufacturers actually supplying the lockrings with their hubs/wheels? Shimano hubs come with lockrings, but Miche sell them separately, as do Goldtec (boutique British hub popular with bike messengers over here), and Mavic seem to ignore the issue completely, neither supplying lockrings nor offering them as a separately purchasable accessory. So, who's right, what's the true thread on Mavic track hubs, and if as I suspect it's 33.0x1.0, does anybody know where I can get such a thing? Kinky Cowboy* *Batteries not included May contain traces of nuts Your milage may vary

Started by Kinky Cowboy · 24 December 2004 · Last activity 11 January 2005 · 34 posts · 5,001 views

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01 / Original postTrack hub lockring threads - Mavic Ellipse - [updated]Kinky Cowboy · 24 Dec 2004 02 / This pagePosts 1–20Page 1 of 2 · chronological order 03 / Latest replyPost #34Kinky Cowboy · 11 Jan 2005

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Original section: Cycling Equipment
Published: 24 December 2004
Last activity: 11 January 2005
Original author: Kinky Cowboy
Posts: 34
Discussion status: Public discussion
Total views: 5,001
Views / 30 days: 0
Topics: Bearing press tools Bottom brackets Single-speed and fixed-gear Taper and peaking

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Original post
Kinky Cowboy
Archived post

24 December 2004, 20:09 UTC #1

Just got some of the lovely new Mavic Ellipse track wheels, and I
don't think I have a lockring for the rear hub. The Shimano Dura Ace
doesn't go on at all, the Miche fits and works but seems loose
radially, although the thread pitch is obviously right the diameter
seems about 0.5mm too big.
Sheldon http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_tp-z.html lists these
English/ISO 1.32" x 24 TPI (1.32"=33.53mm)
Campagnolo/Phil Wood 1.29" x 24 TPI (1.29"=32.77mm)
Old French 33 mm x 1.0 mm
Which doesn't seem to tell me about Miche or Shimano.
Business Cycles http://www.businesscycles.com/tr-refspec.htm#hub offer
the rather different interpretation
33.5 mm. x 24 TPI Campagnolo, Gipiemme, Phil Wood, Miche
1.29" x 24 TPI Shimano, Suntour, Suzue, Surly, Zipp, Corima
[24tpi is a pitch of 1.06mm]
[Phil Wood's own site lists 33.5mm x 24 tpi]
Which fits my experience; the Miche 33.5x1.06 being too big for my,
presumably 33.0x1.0 French Mavic hub, and the Dura Ace both too small
and the wrong pitch.
[obviously, the Miche has the wrong pitch too, but the combination of
being over size and normal thread tolerance (backlash) means you would
expect 4.24mm of female thread to go over 4.00mm of male thread]
[I've now measured my Mavic hub, and it's 33.08mm over the lockring
threads, which seems like 33.0 within the tolerance of Mavic's factory
and my caliper. I don't have a thread guage, and with only 4 thread
turns, it's hard to get any kind of accurate measurement]
While I'm having a rant, what the hell is wrong with manufacturers
actually supplying the lockrings with their hubs/wheels? Shimano hubs
come with lockrings, but Miche sell them separately, as do Goldtec
(boutique British hub popular with bike messengers over here), and
Mavic seem to ignore the issue completely, neither supplying lockrings
nor offering them as a separately purchasable accessory.
So, who's right, what's the true thread on Mavic track hubs, and if as
I suspect it's 33.0x1.0, does anybody know where I can get such a
thing?
Kinky Cowboy*
*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

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Email address hidden
Archived post

25 December 2004, 00:44 UTC #2

Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
>

Just got some of the lovely new Mavic Ellipse track wheels,
<<<<
Have you tried asking the people from whom you purchased these wheels?
Lewis.
***************

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Kinky Cowboy
Archived post

25 December 2004, 11:18 UTC #3

Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
>>

Just got some of the lovely new Mavic Ellipse track wheels,
<<<<
Have you tried asking the people from whom you purchased these wheels?
Lewis.
***************
I asked when I bought them, and they said Dura Ace. As the wheels are
only just in, I might well be the first person to buy a pair from that
shop. I'll go back to them after the holidays, but I don't hold out
too much hope that they'll have a 33x1 lockring in stock, if that's
what's required. If they don't have it, nobody will, I got the wheels
from Condor in London, who probably sell more fixed wheel bikes than
anybody else in the country. Might get my local machine shop to knock
up a small batch and sell them through the shop which sold me the
wheels :-)
Kinky Cowboy*
*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Report
A Muzi
Archived post

25 December 2004, 15:30 UTC #4

Kinky Cowboy said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Just got some of the lovely new Mavic Ellipse track wheels,
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
On 24 Dec 2004 16:44:17 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:
Have you tried asking the people from whom you purchased these wheels?
Kinky Cowboy said:
I asked when I bought them, and they said Dura Ace. As the wheels are
only just in, I might well be the first person to buy a pair from that
shop. I'll go back to them after the holidays, but I don't hold out
too much hope that they'll have a 33x1 lockring in stock, if that's
what's required. If they don't have it, nobody will, I got the wheels
from Condor in London, who probably sell more fixed wheel bikes than
anybody else in the country. Might get my local machine shop to knock
up a small batch and sell them through the shop which sold me the
wheels :-)
If it isn't DuraAce, we have Zeus vintage Metric lockrings.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Report
m-gineering
Archived post

25 December 2004, 17:02 UTC #5

A Muzi said:

Kinky Cowboy said:
Quoted message said:
>Just got some of the lovely new Mavic Ellipse track wheels,
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
> On 24 Dec 2004 16:44:17 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:
> Have you tried asking the people from whom you purchased these wheels?
Kinky Cowboy said:
I asked when I bought them, and they said Dura Ace. As the wheels are
only just in, I might well be the first person to buy a pair from that
shop. I'll go back to them after the holidays, but I don't hold out
too much hope that they'll have a 33x1 lockring in stock, if that's
what's required. If they don't have it, nobody will, I got the wheels
from Condor in London, who probably sell more fixed wheel bikes than
anybody else in the country. Might get my local machine shop to knock
up a small batch and sell them through the shop which sold me the
wheels :-)
If it isn't DuraAce, we have Zeus vintage Metric lockrings.
According to mavic:
Rear hub threads : Cog : 1,37 x 24 TPI Lock nut : M33 x 100 / 6G (left
handed thread).
--
---
Marten Gerritsen
INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Report
Email address hidden
Archived post

25 December 2004, 21:00 UTC #6

Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
>

Condor in London, who probably sell more fixed wheel bikes than anybody
else in the country.
<<<<
Do you actually live in London (as in London, England) or did you just
purchase the wheels from them?
Lewis.

Report
Gemma Kernich
Archived post

25 December 2004, 21:44 UTC #7

"Kinky Cowboy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:1103973367.1b841d01f58cf5186688b1c2781824e7@teranews...
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
>>>

Just got some of the lovely new Mavic Ellipse track wheels,
<<<<
Have you tried asking the people from whom you purchased these wheels?
Lewis.
***************
I asked when I bought them, and they said Dura Ace. As the wheels are
only just in, I might well be the first person to buy a pair from that
shop. I'll go back to them after the holidays, but I don't hold out
too much hope that they'll have a 33x1 lockring in stock, if that's
what's required. If they don't have it, nobody will, I got the wheels
from Condor in London, who probably sell more fixed wheel bikes than
anybody else in the country. Might get my local machine shop to knock
up a small batch and sell them through the shop which sold me the
wheels :-)

If the dura-ace one doesn't fit, try the miche one? It's the nicest
lockring in terms of useability, a duraace bb lockring tool fits it.

Report
Kinky Cowboy
Archived post

25 December 2004, 22:13 UTC #8

Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
>>

Condor in London, who probably sell more fixed wheel bikes than anybody
else in the country.
<<<<
Do you actually live in London (as in London, England) or did you just
purchase the wheels from them?
Lewis.
I work in London, so i tend to treat Condor as my LBS
Kinky Cowboy*
*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Report
Kinky Cowboy
Archived post

25 December 2004, 22:14 UTC #9

Gemma Kernich said:

"Kinky Cowboy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:1103973367.1b841d01f58cf5186688b1c2781824e7@teranews...
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
>>>>
Just got some of the lovely new Mavic Ellipse track wheels,
<<<<
Have you tried asking the people from whom you purchased these wheels?
Lewis.
***************
I asked when I bought them, and they said Dura Ace.

If the dura-ace one doesn't fit, try the miche one? It's the nicest
lockring in terms of useability, a duraace bb lockring tool fits it.
See original post; the Miche fits, but it's loose. Seems I definitely
need the 33x1 lockring.
Kinky Cowboy*
*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Report
Kinky Cowboy
Archived post

25 December 2004, 22:17 UTC #10

m-gineering said:
A Muzi said:

Kinky Cowboy said:
>>Just got some of the lovely new Mavic Ellipse track wheels,
Quoted message said:
>> On 24 Dec 2004 16:44:17 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:
>> Have you tried asking the people from whom you purchased these wheels?
If it isn't DuraAce, we have Zeus vintage Metric lockrings.
According to mavic:
Rear hub threads : Cog : 1,37 x 24 TPI Lock nut : M33 x 100 / 6G (left
handed thread).
As a matter of interest, how did you get this info? Couldn't find any
reference on the Mavic site, and the tech section is password
restricted to dealers.
Kinky Cowboy*
*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Report
Kinky Cowboy
Archived post

25 December 2004, 22:38 UTC #11

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:30:18 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>
Quoted message said:
Kinky Cowboy said:
Quoted message said:
>Just got some of the lovely new Mavic Ellipse track wheels,
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
> On 24 Dec 2004 16:44:17 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:
> Have you tried asking the people from whom you purchased these wheels?
Kinky Cowboy said:
I asked when I bought them, and they said Dura Ace. As the wheels are
only just in, I might well be the first person to buy a pair from that
shop. I'll go back to them after the holidays, but I don't hold out
too much hope that they'll have a 33x1 lockring in stock, if that's
what's required.
If it isn't DuraAce, we have Zeus vintage Metric lockrings.
Interesting, all the Zeus I've seen seems to have been modeled on
Campag, I'd have thought they'd have gone with the Campag 33.5x24tpi
pattern rather than the "French Exceptionalism" 33x1.
Anyway, I'm going back to Condor on the first working day after the
holidays to investigate, and I think I'll do a drawing for the machine
shop to work to while I'm at home, because I'm not optimistic.
More weirdness from Mavic; the Ellipse wheels are 120mm over locknuts,
but the Comete disc is listed as 110mm. I bet they use a different
locknut thread on it too!
Kinky Cowboy*
*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Report
Email address hidden
Archived post

25 December 2004, 22:38 UTC #12

Kinky Cowboy said:
m-gineering said:
A Muzi said:

Kinky Cowboy wrote:
>>>Just got some of the lovely new Mavic Ellipse track wheels,
>>> On 24 Dec 2004 16:44:17 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:
>>> Have you tried asking the people from whom you purchased these wheels?
If it isn't DuraAce, we have Zeus vintage Metric lockrings.
According to mavic:
Rear hub threads : Cog : 1,37 x 24 TPI Lock nut : M33 x 100 / 6G (left
handed thread).
As a matter of interest, how did you get this info? Couldn't find any
reference on the Mavic site, and the tech section is password
restricted to dealers.
Kinky Cowboy*
*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary
Dear Kinky,
Only a loathsome reptile without the slightest conscience
would suggest trying mavic-com as the login and dealer as
the password at this high-security site:
http://www.tech-mavic.com/
Carl Fogel

Report
Kinky Cowboy
Archived post

26 December 2004, 00:01 UTC #13

Quoted message said:
Dear Kinky,
Only a loathsome reptile without the slightest conscience
would suggest trying mavic-com as the login and dealer as
the password at this high-security site:
http://www.tech-mavic.com/
Carl Fogel
Good god! Thank heavens there are no such loathsome reptiles at r.b.t!
Thanks, and a particularly merry Christmas to you.
Kinky Cowboy*
*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Report
Email address hidden
Archived post

26 December 2004, 02:01 UTC #14

Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:

Anyway, I'm going back to Condor on the first working day after the
holidays to investigate, and I think I'll do a drawing for the machine
shop to work to while I'm at home, because I'm not optimistic.
<<<
I'd be interested in seeing the drawing as I have 4 lockrings at the
house and will be glad to see if one will work for you.
Lewis.
**************

Report
Sheldon Brown
Archived post

26 December 2004, 03:40 UTC #15

Kinky Cowboy said:
Interesting, all the Zeus I've seen seems to have been modeled on
Campag, I'd have thought they'd have gone with the Campag 33.5x24tpi
pattern rather than the "French Exceptionalism" 33x1.
It's true that most Zeus stuff is just cheap, inferior Campagnolo
knockoffs.
When they did get original, however, they often tended to copy the worst
features of Italian and French systems.
F'rinstance, they commonly used the French pedal threading.
The worst was their stupid cranks, which use Italian standard size
extractor threads, but with a 16 mm bolt head, a la Stronglight.
This is a really nasty combination, because finding a socket that would
fit the 16 mm bolt, that would also fit inside the smaller extractor
threads can be VERY challenging. Basically nothing fits except their
own super-thinwall socket.
Merry Christmas to all...
Sheldon "Not A Zeus Fan" Brown
+-------------------------------------------+
| Genius may have its limitations, |
| but stupidity is not thus handicapped. |
| --Elbert Hubbard |
+-------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

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A Muzi
Archived post

26 December 2004, 03:43 UTC #16

Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Kinky Cowboy wrote:
I asked when I bought them, and they said Dura Ace. As the wheels are
only just in, I might well be the first person to buy a pair from that
shop. I'll go back to them after the holidays, but I don't hold out
too much hope that they'll have a 33x1 lockring in stock, if that's
what's required.
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
<[email hidden]>
If it isn't DuraAce, we have Zeus vintage Metric lockrings.
Kinky Cowboy said:
Interesting, all the Zeus I've seen seems to have been modeled on
Campag, I'd have thought they'd have gone with the Campag 33.5x24tpi
pattern rather than the "French Exceptionalism" 33x1.

-snip-
Quoted message said:
More weirdness from Mavic; the Ellipse wheels are 120mm over locknuts,
but the Comete disc is listed as 110mm. I bet they use a different
locknut thread on it too!
Besides the lockring, the Spanish standard is (was?) metric
so Zeus complete bicycles are m35x1 BB, 22.0 quill stem in a
25x1 fork, pedals 14mm etc. And metric frame tubes so my
531SL Zeus used a 26.8 post.
110 OLD at one time was the track standard. Now anything goes.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

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Kinky Cowboy
Archived post

26 December 2004, 11:32 UTC #17

Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
>

Anyway, I'm going back to Condor on the first working day after the
holidays to investigate, and I think I'll do a drawing for the machine
shop to work to while I'm at home, because I'm not optimistic.
<<<
I'd be interested in seeing the drawing as I have 4 lockrings at the
house and will be glad to see if one will work for you.
Lewis.
**************
It's not just me, it's everybody who buys these wheels. If Mavic
aren't going to get into the lockring supply business, I see an
opportunity to make a little money on the side :-) All my favourite
shops are offering these wheels, and none of them is offering French
threaded lockrings.
Kinky Cowboy*
*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Report
m-gineering
Archived post

26 December 2004, 13:23 UTC #18

Kinky Cowboy said:

Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
>>

Anyway, I'm going back to Condor on the first working day after the
holidays to investigate, and I think I'll do a drawing for the machine
shop to work to while I'm at home, because I'm not optimistic.
<<<
I'd be interested in seeing the drawing as I have 4 lockrings at the
house and will be glad to see if one will work for you.
Lewis.
**************
It's not just me, it's everybody who buys these wheels. If Mavic
aren't going to get into the lockring supply business, I see an
opportunity to make a little money on the side :-) All my favourite
shops are offering these wheels, and none of them is offering French
threaded lockrings.
in 90-91 the mavic lockring carried part no 520 066
--
---
Marten Gerritsen
INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

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A Muzi
Archived post

26 December 2004, 16:01 UTC #19

Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Kinky Cowboy wrote:
Interesting, all the Zeus I've seen seems to have been modeled on
Campag, I'd have thought they'd have gone with the Campag 33.5x24tpi
pattern rather than the "French Exceptionalism" 33x1.
Sheldon Brown said:
It's true that most Zeus stuff is just cheap, inferior Campagnolo
knockoffs.

-snip-
Quoted message said:
The worst was their stupid cranks, which use Italian standard size
extractor threads, but with a 16 mm bolt head, a la Stronglight.
This is a really nasty combination, because finding a socket that would
fit the 16 mm bolt, that would also fit inside the smaller extractor
threads can be VERY challenging. Basically nothing fits except their
own super-thinwall socket.
Sheldon "Not A Zeus Fan" Brown
Yes that was a singularly bad choice and Zeus sadly
incorporated lots of other obvious blunders.
But credit where it's due, their cold forged cranks with a
36t capacity found a core group of loyal riders (who are
even now hopelessly scrounging for obsolete and unique
chainrings) in a world of 42-52.
Zeus added simple O-ring seals to loose ball systems years
before anyone else. Their 2000 freewheel is beautifully
designed and executed. Headset press is far improved over
Campagnolo's - much like a Var. I just love their forged
2000 frame ends - Senor Arregui was at his best that day.
Like your crazy aunt who shows up with a bottle on holidays,
you have to grade them on their own scale - inspired design
with fanatic quality in a few pieces, shoddy dysfunctional
[censored] for the bulk of it, the most schizophrenic of the
classic pro groups. Even a Frexa or Spidel bike makes more
sense. There's probably no excuse for an all-Zeus bike.
Andrew "finds a speck of gold in the dross" Muzi
ps- chromed 14mm Sugino bolts fit just fine.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Report
John Thompson
Archived post

26 December 2004, 16:07 UTC #20

Sheldon Brown said:
It's true that most Zeus stuff is just cheap, inferior Campagnolo
knockoffs.
When they did get original, however, they often tended to copy the worst
features of Italian and French systems.
F'rinstance, they commonly used the French pedal threading.
The worst was their stupid cranks, which use Italian standard size
extractor threads, but with a 16 mm bolt head, a la Stronglight.
This is a really nasty combination, because finding a socket that would
fit the 16 mm bolt, that would also fit inside the smaller extractor
threads can be VERY challenging. Basically nothing fits except their
own super-thinwall socket.
Park's CW-16 peanut butter wrench works fine here. And then it's no
problem to replace the 16mm bolts with 15mm bolts, if that's what you
prefer.
Quoted message said:
Merry Christmas to all...
Sheldon "Not A Zeus Fan" Brown
You can send me all your unwanted Zeus parts, if you like! Especially
cranks and chainrings...
--
-John ([email hidden])

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