Training for 90 min. Hillclimb TT?

[nojiri]

Every year I enter a 12.7 mi. hillclimb TT that gains approx. 4,800 ft., and I'm trying to break the 90 min. mark. They say the average grade is 6.5%. Two months before the race I'll be living and working where I have a similar but shorter climb that I can train on; it's about 5.6 mi., averages about 7%, and I can usually do it in 43 min. at about L3~L4. How would you use the 5.6 mi. climb to train for the TT? SST up and down as many times as I can? Different intervals?

Cheers! - nojiri

 

[Steve_B]

Every year I enter a 12.7 mi. hillclimb TT that gains approx. 4,800 ft., and I'm trying to break the 90 min. mark. They say the average grade is 6.5%. Two months before the race I'll be living and working where I have a similar but shorter climb that I can train on; it's about 5.6 mi., averages about 7%, and I can usually do it in 43 min. at about L3~L4.

How would you use the 5.6 mi. climb to train for the TT? SST up and down as many times as I can? Different intervals?

Yes and yes.

It sounds like the climb near your location is just under half the length of the race climb and a similar grade.

I would try to do 3-5 days per week of some L3 and L4 work of some sort. At least one day per week doing 2 trips up the nearby climb at SST pace would be excellent preparation. You don't have to do all the work on the climb though; on other days, some SST work on flatter terrain is still good work and still appropriate too. Since your goal is ~90 minutes in duration, I would plan on some days of 2-3 hours of SST work, be it on the climb or on the flats or some combination of both. Not all days should be 2-3 hours of work(it would be too much stress), but there should be some. The rest can be other things. Some work at ~FTP, like 2x20's, for variety and to touch on that level of intensity so that it doesn't get neglected is a good idea, IMO.

As you get closer to the race date (~6 down to 2 weeks before), I would cut it down to maybe 3 days/week of hard training: 2 days per week for 90-120 minutes SST at race pace, which will probably be ~95 % of FTP. It would be good to do one or both of these on the practice hill. Then one day per week of L5 or upper L4 (2x20) is good here too.

Hopefully you have a power meter, WKO+ and can use PMC to plan your tapering and peaking. A power meter is invaluable in hill climbs and TT's for pacing and to learn proper pacing before the event.

If you had never done this climb before, I would suggest one trip to the hill for a practice ahead of the race but it seems like you know the climb well after doing it for some years so that's probably less important.

 

[kopride]

Every year I enter a 12.7 mi. hillclimb TT that gains approx. 4,800 ft., and I'm trying to break the 90 min. mark. They say the average grade is 6.5%. Two months before the race I'll be living and working where I have a similar but shorter climb that I can train on; it's about 5.6 mi., averages about 7%, and I can usually do it in 43 min. at about L3~L4. How would you use the 5.6 mi. climb to train for the TT? SST up and down as many times as I can? Different intervals?

Cheers! - nojiri

Those are both long steep hills, but it still is a 90 minute tt. You are not going to be able to sustain FTP for 90 minutes, unless you have underestimated your FTP. I would try and ride the nearby hill at 90% of your FTP and see how that feels, that should give you a good marker of the pace you can approach the longer hill. 2 x 45 @ 85% FTP on the hill, trying to keep your cadence at 90 RPM would be worthwhile as well. Power is power, whether you are on a hill or not. You need to improve your max sustainable power for 90 minutes. Since it is still related to FTP, then SST work seems to be the ticket. If you are in any way heavy, a few pound weight loss will give great gains over a 90 minute hill climb. This is all about watts/kg. If you are grinding for significant periods at a low cadence in the anareobic range for too long, then the best laid plans will go to **** on the day of the race. I would try and stay focused on staying seated and spinning while keeping power as close to 80-90 FTP on that nearby hill as much as possible.

 

[nojiri]

...
Hopefully you have a power meter, WKO+ and can use PMC to plan your tapering and peaking. A power meter is invaluable in hill climbs and TT's for pacing and to learn proper pacing before the event...

Steve_B: Thanks, that sounds good. I'm a bit new to some of these terms and scientific training. What is WKO+? I couldn't find it in the acronyms sticky. And how would I use PMC to plan tapering and peaking?

Unfortunately I don't have a power meter, but I have done the big climb 6 times now, both racing and training, ranging from 91 min. to 105 min., so I have a good idea what power level will give me what times.

- nojiri

 

[nojiri]

... What is WKO+? I couldn't find it in the acronyms sticky. And how would I use PMC to plan tapering and peaking?...
- nojiri

Disregard the above questions. Okay... I see this is all answered on the Training Peaks site. Very interesting. I don't have the $ right now for the PM and the software, so I guess I'll have to make do with my HRM and biological PM . I see there's a free trial... maybe I'll check that out and see if I can at least get a handle on some tapering and peaking concepts...

Cheers! - nojiri

 

[Steve_B]

I see there's a free trial... maybe I'll check that out and see if I can at least get a handle on some tapering and peaking concepts...

The software alone won't help you much that way. Find some training books like Friel's or something similar. I'm not in love with everything he says in his books but his description of tapering and peaking is a good place to start.

 

[kopride]

Disregard the above questions. Okay... I see this is all answered on the Training Peaks site. Very interesting. I don't have the $ right now for the PM and the software, so I guess I'll have to make do with my HRM and biological PM . I see there's a free trial... maybe I'll check that out and see if I can at least get a handle on some tapering and peaking concepts...

Cheers! - nojiri

Actually, hill training is one of the few spots that fairly accurate watt calculations can be made based upon mph and grade. The big variable, wind resistance is a relatively minor factor, on a hill. Do a 45 minute piece all out and call that your 95% of your FTP. the you can design specific intervals for that hill

 

[nojiri]

Actually, hill training is one of the few spots that fairly accurate watt calculations can be made based upon mph and grade...

kopride- I'm very interested in this. Do you know of a formula, chart, or calculator for this? I would think with mph, grade, and then adding in total rider/bike weight it could be done...

- nojiri

 

[kopride]

kopride- I'm very interested in this. Do you know of a formula, chart, or calculator for this? I would think with mph, grade, and then adding in total rider/bike weight it could be done...

- nojiri

Try this link:

http://www2.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2008/01/climbing-power-formula.html

 

[daveryanwyoming]

kopride- I'm very interested in this. Do you know of a formula, chart, or calculator for this? I would think with mph, grade, and then adding in total rider/bike weight it could be done...

- nojiri

or try this:

http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesPower_Page.html

-Dave

 

[kopride]

Dave's is a better calculator. Again, on a hill, get light and maximize 90 minute power and you should be good to go. If you don't have a PM, then do some interval sessions with a gym erg, (see It's killing me thread). You should be able to come up with a pretty good plan to maximize 90 minute power. I would think that 3 x 20s @SST and 2 x 45s on the very low end of SST might be a pretty good plan in a gym. You can also calculate your race course by watts and get a pretty good idea what it would take to get to where you want to be.

Good luck. In my opinion, a 90 min hill tt is a cruel race

 

[nojiri]

I just ran across an online wattage calculator here, and according to that, my best time on the big climb had me putting out 196 watts for 91 minutes. With just those two figures, what would you expect my FTP to be?

- nojiri

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... With just those two figures, what would you expect my FTP to be?...

Not really enough info there. Assuming the power predictions were accurate from that online calculator it's safe to say your FTP is above 191. How far above is really tough to say.

A lot of folks fall off in power for long durations for lots of non-physiological reasons including loss of focus, pacing issues, fueling, hydration, etc. But assuming you really rode well, stayed focused beginning to end, paced well and gave your best effort for the whole ride I'd take a swag that your FTP is at least 220 and probably a bit higher.

Do some tests on shorter steady hills. For the best estimates look for a climb that takes 20 minutes to half an hour to climb, one with as steady a grade as possible. Ride it at a steady pace, don't go out too hard and blow up, maintain the pace as well as you can from beginning to end and try to ride your best possible effort for the duration. Do this on a day when you feel strong and fresh, you're well fueled and you really feel psyched up to ride well. Punch those numbers into your power estimation calculator and you'll have a better idea of your FTP. Do this for two different durations say 5 minutes and 20 minutes and you can plug the numbers into a Monod CP spreadsheet: http://velo-fit.com/articles/critical-power.pdf and you should get a decent estimate of FTP and better yet sustainable power for various durations.

A power meter would give better data and would be a lot more useful day to day but it's a big expense. Your hill climb estimation isn't a bad approach, especially considering the nature of your target event.

-Dave

 

[swampy1970]

Since this is a hillclimb and said hill is knocking on 7%, losing a bit of weight is just as important as gaining more power and it's about that grade where losing a pound of weight gains you about the same benefit as gaining 1 watt of sustainable power. Needless to say that being 10lbs lighter doesn't force you to pedal harder to maintain speed and can be lost in conjunction with any other training that you're doing. From personal experience trying to restrict intake when doing hard hill work and/or intervals is next to impossible whereas it's pretty easy to do following moderately hard but longer training sessions - your milage may vary.

You may want to think about that if you start drinking lots of "sports drinks" while training. Most people over do the sports drinks while riding which is why they always seem to keep the weight rather than losing it. Keep trying a bit less and less until you discover that you went a little too far and add a little more as necessary.

That said you could have as much meat on you as a butchers pencil and look like Rasmussen but losing weight has lots of other advantages other than the basic "less weight on hill = more speed", especially if the hill in question is somewhere warm.

If it's anything like climbing Carson Pass during the Deathride "warm" then my condolences in advance. Riding up a long hill to over 8,500ft in 100F heat into a headwind will knock the stuffing out of you. LOL

How long do you have to train until the event?

 

[nojiri]

Since this is a hillclimb and said hill is knocking on 7%, losing a bit of weight is just as important as gaining more power...

That said you could have as much meat on you as a butchers pencil and look like Rasmussen but losing weight has lots of other advantages other than the basic "less weight on hill = more speed", especially if the hill in question is somewhere warm.

If it's anything like climbing Carson Pass during the Deathride "warm" then my condolences in advance. Riding up a long hill to over 8,500ft in 100F heat into a headwind will knock the stuffing out of you. LOL

How long do you have to train until the event?

Hey swampy1970,

Yes, on these long and steep TTs, weight is very much on my mind. Right now I'm at 134 lb. (5'4") and am slowly working my way down to a race weight of 130 lb. I usually go up to about 136 lb. in the winter, so I think I'm about on track for the regular spring weight loss.

As for sports drinks, after trying what seems like every commercial product under the sun, like carb-protein types, carb-amino acid types, amino acid-potassium types, carb-sodium types, etc., I think I've settled on my own secret blend: plain water with a some honey in it for carbs. Cheap, easy to make, carbs for quick-absorbing energy, and tastes good ! ...but I'll keep in mind what you said about possibly overloading calories in the bottle. My theory is, I'd rather put honey calories in my water bottle for energy in workouts, and lose the last 4 lbs. by cutting out ice cream, pie, fried foods, butter on bread, etc. in regular meals. But then again, what we should eat and what we shouldn't eat is a whole nother thread, isn't it?!

Temperatures for this race are usually ideal: 70 deg. at the start, about 50 deg. at the top.

I usually have two of these climbing TTs every season, one in early June climbing Mt. Fuji, and the second in late August in the Japan Alps, both about the same distance and elevation gain. This year I'll miss Mt. Fuji because I'll be in the middle of a move from the U.S. to Japan, so I actually have quite a bit of time before the one in the Alps in August.

Cheers! - nojiri