Training needed to maintain 350 watts for and hour

[veloguy]

What type of training does it take (or did it take me) to maintain 350 watts for an hour? Well, let me start offby saying that my background is running, not cycling. I have been a competitive runner for 25 years, so I already have a pretty developed cardiovascular system. I have bests of 3:55 for 1,500 meters, 15 min. for 5k, 25 min for 8k. Although I had dabbled in cycling, I had not ridden a bike in 5 years before August 2002. So, being able to ride under an hour for 40k was done in a 12 month period. Since I already had the cardio side of things, I had to develop my cycling legs. There are two things you need to emphasize: Muscular strength and Muscular endurance.

I don't lift weights and I am not a high mileage cyclist. I think my greatest volume was an average of 2 hours per day for 4-5 weeks. It was all at an easy pace, maybe 170 watts or 70% of my max HR. My average week is 8-9 hours.

I think the single most important workouts I do are intervals either on a hill or in a big gear on the flats. Here is a typical hill workout: warm up for 15-20 minutes, 6-8 x 5 min. w/ 2 min. between, ride uphill 320-330 watts turning a gear at 50-60 rpm's, my HR averages in the mid 160's(my max is 182), cool down 20 minutes. that workout only takes 90 minutes, but 1/2 of it is at anaerobic threshold effort. The key is the low rpm's for strength (my weakness). This is not a max effort workout! Just controlled.

You can work out all you want, but I don't think anything gets you racing fit like racing. That is the final piece of the puzzle. You can either do some road races and/or TT's. A local club has a 10 mile (16k) TT every Thursday night which I try to get to every week. That's about it. Feel free to ask any questions and I will respond as best I can, Kevin

 

[Bob West]

I believe what you say, inregards to racing. "you have to race to get race fit" however if you look at it a different way. Take me for example, I have a one year old boy so my time has to be spent wisely. I still train 12hrs per week. Unfortunetly I can't always get out to race but I always make time to train. So when time permitts I'll head out and do 5min intervals AT 173-175bpm, my max being 181. I figure if I do 7 of these my heart rate will have been higher longer than if I would have raced a one hour + crit. I'm thinking that these 5min intervals are what will make me faster than if I would have raced. I do these once a week without fail. I'm interested in what your take on this is.

 

[veloguy]

Bob, your plan sounds great! My main point is that the majority of athletes need the specialness of a race in order to get their mental focus and adrenaline going to push beyond just an ordinary workout. If you can push yourself hard in training, great! On the flip side, I would caution you to not tap into you anaerobic system too much. There was an article in Bicycling Magazine about Chris Carmichael. He mentioned that in the early 90's Lance was really struggling and even dropped out of Paris-Nice. Chris couldn't figure out why so he opened all of Lance's training logs and determined that the harder Lance trained, the slower he got. He wasn't overtrained, they were just tapping into his lactate system too often. I think you would do fine by dropping your HR on your intervals by 5-7 beats or more. You can do this by riding a bigger gear and turning a slower cadence. This stresses your muscular system more than you cardio system. It's weight training on the bike! And that's what it is all about, having the muscular strength to push the big gears for and extended period. Kevin

Originally posted by Bob West
I believe what you say, inregards to racing. "you have to race to get race fit" however if you look at it a different way. Take me for example, I have a one year old boy so my time has to be spent wisely. I still train 12hrs per week. Unfortunetly I can't always get out to race but I always make time to train. So when time permitts I'll head out and do 5min intervals AT 173-175bpm, my max being 181. I figure if I do 7 of these my heart rate will have been higher longer than if I would have raced a one hour + crit. I'm thinking that these 5min intervals are what will make me faster than if I would have raced. I do these once a week without fail. I'm interested in what your take on this is.

 

[Bob West]

Thx Veloguy, I know what you mean by lowering your heart rate by pushing a bigger gear. I noticed that today while I was doing my cruise intervals. I shifted to a harder gear, my heart rate dropped a few beats so I pushed harder to raise it again. Then I geared down due to a false flat to increase my cadence and my heart rate went up easily. By pushing a bigger gear doesn't that creat more lactate, even though your H.R is lower??

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by Bob West
Thx Veloguy, I know what you mean by lowering your heart rate by pushing a bigger gear. I noticed that today while I was doing my cruise intervals. I shifted to a harder gear, my heart rate dropped a few beats so I pushed harder to raise it again. Then I geared down due to a false flat to increase my cadence and my heart rate went up easily. By pushing a bigger gear doesn't that creat more lactate, even though your H.R is lower??

At a given workload, as cadence decreases, efficiency will increase, i.e., a lower cadence is more efficient than a high cadence. This results in a lower VO2 and a decreased HR.

As the absolute workload increases then the most efficient cadence will rise.

Optimally, for best bike performance you'll need to pedal at higher than most efficient cadences, as it can be rather uncomfortable bogging down at 60 revs/min, and very hard to respond to any attacks!

Ric

 

[TTer]

Ric, so, if I understand you correctly, at higher power output it's more efficient to use a higher cadence? How much does it affect cadence? For example, is 70rpm at 250W similar in efficiency to 95rpm at 350W? Or is the cadence difference more sutble, e.g. 75rpm at 350W instead of 95rpm for similar efficiency?

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by TTer
Ric, so, if I understand you correctly, at higher power output it's more efficient to use a higher cadence? How much does it affect cadence? For example, is 70rpm at 250W similar in efficiency to 95rpm at 350W? Or is the cadence difference more sutble, e.g. 75rpm at 350W instead of 95rpm for similar efficiency?

Off the top of my head without looking at any papers for exact figures, it's something like at a low intensity (e.g. 150 - 200 W) the most efficient cadence will be around 50 ish revs/min. However, as power increases the most efficient cadence would increase.

At the same time, as power increases so does efficiency, i.e., you'll be more efficient at (e.g.) 250 W as opposed to (e.g.) 200 W, so it's going to be likely impossible to say that 70 revs/min at 250 W is more efficient or the same as 95 revs/min at 350 W.

With all this being said, unless you're planning to ride a very long way the most efficient cadence isn't much use, you need to find the most optimal cadence (i.e., it'd be no fun whatsoever riding a road race at an average cadence of 50 revs/min)

Ric

 

[Bob West]

So if I undaerstand you right. It would not be fun to ride a road race at low RPM's due to the fact that the pace varies and it would be to taxing to respond. On the other hand it would be better to time trail at a lower cadence on a relatively flat coarse as it would be more efficient yeilding a faster time.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by Bob West
So if I undaerstand you right. It would not be fun to ride a road race at low RPM's due to the fact that the pace varies and it would be to taxing to respond. On the other hand it would be better to time trail at a lower cadence on a relatively flat coarse as it would be more efficient yeilding a faster time.

Road race spot on.
It would be more efficient in the time trial (i.e., lower VO2) but i'm not sure you'd produce more power (it might be that you could do the same power for a longer period of time). however, i'm still not sure you'd want to ride round at a very low cadence, as it'll likely he horrendously uncomortable (i wouldn't be keen to TT at less than 80 revs/min).

Ric

 

[TTer]

Originally posted by veloguy
I think the single most important workouts I do are intervals either on a hill or in a big gear on the flats. Here is a typical hill workout: warm up for 15-20 minutes, 6-8 x 5 min. w/ 2 min. between, ride uphill 320-330 watts turning a gear at 50-60 rpm's, my HR averages in the mid 160's(my max is 182), cool down 20 minutes. that workout only takes 90 minutes, but 1/2 of it is at anaerobic threshold effort. The key is the low rpm's for strength (my weakness). This is not a max effort workout! Just controlled.

Very interesting veloguy. Ric, 2LAP, is this guy naturally gifted to attain 350W ?? Is 350W within the reach of most athletes or not?

I must admit that I don't think the interval workout is excessively hard. Hard yes, but not overly so. I can maybe push 320-330 W for that time period uphill, though it would be very hard work, yet my TT pace is roughly 250W or there-abouts. Maybe the hard workouts have different effects on different athletes? Or maybe Veloguy is naturally gifted and this is a relatively (operative word) easy workout for him?

Veloguy, it seems you train beneath your TT pace quite considerably, yet still have the legs to put out 350W when it matters. I personally can do 2x20mins at 280-290W 2xweekly yet still can't raise my TT pace much about 250W. I can't imagine having to hold 350W for an hour, or is maintaining 350W for an hour only(! ) as tough for you as it is for me to hold 250W for an hour (and change)?

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by TTer, i respond with >>

Very interesting veloguy. Ric, 2LAP, is this guy naturally gifted to attain 350W ?? Is 350W within the reach of most athletes or not?

>>Peoples potential can depend on many factors, it's perhaps a bit of "how long is piece of string?" question.

>>Also, you must correct for different sizes (height, mass), when i scale that veloguys power to mass, to my size, the power is dropped from 350 W to 314 W.


I must admit that I don't think the interval workout is excessively hard. Hard yes, but not overly so. I can maybe push 320-330 W for that time period uphill, though it would be very hard work, yet my TT pace is roughly 250W or there-abouts. Maybe the hard workouts have different effects on different athletes? Or maybe Veloguy is naturally gifted and this is a relatively (operative word) easy workout for him?

>>six to eight x 5 mins at ~93 % (325 W/350 W) of TT power should be a fairly easy session for veloguy. If i was so inclined, i could probably last 90 - 120 minutes at that effort

Veloguy, it seems you train beneath your TT pace quite considerably, yet still have the legs to put out 350W when it matters. I personally can do 2x20mins at 280-290W 2xweekly yet still can't raise my TT pace much about 250W.

>>are you completing your 2 x 20mins indoor and your 250 W TT outdoors? Because of the variable intensity nature of outdoor cycling it (likely) might reduce the average down, unless the course you TT on is continually uphill or pan flat and in a straight line

Ric

 

[veloguy]

TTer, I think what you are missing is the "whole picture" of training over time. I gave you a typical workout, and, as I said, it is not a max effort workout. However, you need to look at it in context of a typical training week. We have a very active racing scene where I live and you could race every day of the week if you want. Let me give you a hypothetical week of what I could do.
Monday- 35 mile(50-55km) circuit race, lasts 1 1/2 hours with dozens of efforts over 500 watts, ave. pace 27mph.

Tuesday- 90 min easy ride or my sample hill repeat workout

Wed.- 1 hr. easy

Thurs.- 10 mile TT in 22:30

Friday. 1 1 1/2 hr. easy ride or my sample hill repeat workout

Sat. and Sunday- 2 1/2 hr ride or race up to 60 miles

So, as you can see, in a 7 day period I might have raced Monday and Saturday on the road, a TT on Thursday PLUS my hill repeats one other day. I am getting plenty of anaerobic work during the races(sometimes too much!), I also am doing my hill repeats already fatiqued so maintaining a HR in the low 160's is fine.

Also take into account my 20+ years as a runner, that helps. Another factor than is tough to measure is raising to the occaision during a race. Many runners and cyclists do their best "racing" during training. I am very controlled in my training so that my racing is just that, racing. Quite often, I am able to only maintain 310-320 watts during the Thursday night 10 mile TT's which only last 22-23 minutes. When I did my 350 watts for 40k, I had rested up for two weeks before hand and really backed off the training. It was also my state championships, not a "training" TT. I hope this sheds a little more light on the subject. BTW, I have also done some max efforts at shorter time/distance if you would like to know how much power I can put out at other distances, I can share that with you. Kevin

Originally posted by TTer
Very interesting veloguy. Ric, 2LAP, is this guy naturally gifted to attain 350W ?? Is 350W within the reach of most athletes or not?

I must admit that I don't think the interval workout is excessively hard. Hard yes, but not overly so. I can maybe push 320-330 W for that time period uphill, though it would be very hard work, yet my TT pace is roughly 250W or there-abouts. Maybe the hard workouts have different effects on different athletes? Or maybe Veloguy is naturally gifted and this is a relatively (operative word) easy workout for him?

Veloguy, it seems you train beneath your TT pace quite considerably, yet still have the legs to put out 350W when it matters. I personally can do 2x20mins at 280-290W 2xweekly yet still can't raise my TT pace much about 250W. I can't imagine having to hold 350W for an hour, or is maintaining 350W for an hour only(! ) as tough for you as it is for me to hold 250W for an hour (and change)?

 

[TTer]

Originally posted by veloguy
BTW, I have also done some max efforts at shorter time/distance if you would like to know how much power I can put out at other distances, I can share that with you. Kevin

Wow veloguy! That is one heck of a training week. Crikey!! How the heck do you recover? Seems like back to back hard days on a regular basis which would destroy me totally.

If you have power data for other time intervals that would make very interesting reading.

What's your weight/height by the way? I guess Ric knows, when he scaled the power to his own body weight/height, but would be useful to know.

 

[veloguy]

Sorry TTer, I didn't mean to say that I do that every week, just that I COULD with the active race scene. I was just trying to point out that when I do the hill repeats I mentioned, I am, by no means fresh. Yes, I do back to back hard days sometimes. But as you mentioned even my "cornerstone" workout is not that tough by itself. I also admit that at 38 I don't recover as fast as I use to. When the racing really started in February, I got the mindset that "OK, I need to race a lot, up the volume, and do lots of intervals." Guess what? I didn't improve. I mentioned the Chris Carmichael article about Lance training hard but getting slower. Thats what happened to me mid season. For some reason just doing a TT and maybe my hill repeats once a week is all my body needs/can handle to improve. So, maybe I'm this great natural talent, but I have found that less-than-max, anaerobic threshold work is all I need.

Here is some data for you to graph. These are AVERAGE watts for the interval: 30 seconds = 825 watts, 1 minute = 650 watts, 4 minutes = 450 watts, 8 minutes = 400 watts, 22 minutes (10 mile TT) = 370 watts. Most of these were done in May and June, so I might be able to improve these.

I am 6'0" and 171 lbs. (77.7kg)

Originally posted by TTer
Wow veloguy! That is one heck of a training week. Crikey!! How the heck do you recover? Seems like back to back hard days on a regular basis which would destroy me totally.

If you have power data for other time intervals that would make very interesting reading.

What's your weight/height by the way? I guess Ric knows, when he scaled the power to his own body weight/height, but would be useful to know.