Training programs and principles

Okay, I'm sure that was asking too much. But can anyone point me to a discussion forum that might be
better suited to asking stuff like this?

Thanks! Mark

"Mark C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I'm just starting up "training" as a swimmer. Given that I don't have any specific competitive
ambitions, maybe I should just shut up and do laps, but that's not like me.

I've run competitively for years, and have lifted weights a few times a week. So my starting point
is I'm thin, have good running aerobics, and at least a somewhat muscular upper body.

But I suck at swimming. I've been in the water quite a lot over the years, but never developed
good strokes. I've considered myself a "sinker", etc., etc.

I've been at this "training" on my own for a month now, and have gotten up to 3x/week of about
2500m---a mile non-stop (pretty much) and some harder 50m's with rest. All freestyle. I have the
motivation, and I'm enjoying it, but I don't know what I'm doing. My endurance is getting a lot
better, as is my speed going hard, but my "cruising" speed seems little changed.

I have visited some websites (Total Immersion among them) to get ideas about stroke mechanics and
drills and stuff. I've tried to incorporate the basic ideas into my stroke. I guess it may be a
while before that translates into speed. I haven't really done many drills.

I haven't seen yet anything like there is so much of for running: programs sketching what to do in
every workout over the course of months---when to do mainly distance, when to do intervals (how
long, how hard, how much rest), when to do drills, etc.

My schedule doesn't allow me to get with a master's group (even though I use the Stanford and USF
pools where there are masters groups).

I'd be grateful for suggestions about how to design (or just find) a reasonable training program.

Sorry for the length of this.

Mark

"Mark C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, I'm sure that was asking too much. But can anyone point me to a discussion forum that might
be better suited to asking stuff like this?

Thanks! Mark

what do you mean by a "training program" ? Have a look at the master's swimming websites, a lot of
them have much of their workout routines posted. There is a number of books too that talk about
putting together a workout.

There aren't as many swimmers as there are runners, and swimming is nowhere nearly as commercialized
as running is, so you won't find as much 'product', but you will get a lot of info available within
a team, lot of word of mouth, and let me show you little something kind of a thing.

The best thing you can do is to make time to join a good masters group, even if for a while. Short
of hiring a coach for private lessons (which most coaches are available for that too, in this area
the going rate seems to be $40-50 an hour, joining a masters team is where you will learn the most.
Many Master's programs have swimmers who have just few years ago been competing at national and
international levels.

I tried swimming for 2 years before joining a masters team, and I've made more progress in 9 weeks
(after a 2 year break) than I have in 8 months of swimming on my own (and reading and researching).

I'm gonna make a guess that your question was a bit too vague to draw the responses, because you've
eliminated the idea of what works the best (masters team), you said you already looked at the TI and
some other books... If you're just looking for some ideas to break up the workouts, with putting up
with about one advertising email a week, this place will email you workout ideas: www.swim2000.com

Non stop laps and not much else will not do a whole lot for you. Timed drills, stroke drills etc.
mixed in with some distance laps on certain days work much better. Also, your goal seems to be a
little bit vague, so I'm gonna guess people didn't know what exactly to suggest.

You say you haven't done many drills.... do the drills. Swimming is probably good 80% technique,
more technique than golf. (little bit unlike running, where conditioning comes into play little
more) If you want to get faster, a LOT of your workout will be technique oriented, till it becomes
second nature. Proper conditioning, and building up strength for swimming, good part of it will come
while you are practicing technique. Also, practice timed intervals. Use fins and pull buoys where
the workout calls for them to increase resistance.

It's not so much where you ask, but what you ask. It's hard to figure out where to even begin to
answer your question.

Still, THE best thing you can do for your swimming is to join a Master's group. You're going to
learn so much more then by reading. Another good source of learning is videos. Swimming technique is
sometimes too complex to put in words.

Oh, and if any of the Master's group advertise stroke clinics, take them.

What is it about your schedule that prevents you from joining a master's group? Up near you there
are some really great ones.

Oh, and get familiar with the usms.orgusms.orgOpen ↗

Mark C said:

Okay, I'm sure that was asking too much. But can anyone point me to a discussion forum that might
be better suited to asking stuff like this?

Thanks! Mark

"Mark C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I'm just starting up "training" as a swimmer. Given that I don't have any specific competitive
ambitions, maybe I should just shut up and do laps, but that's not like me.

I've run competitively for years, and have lifted weights a few times a week. So my starting point
is I'm thin, have good running aerobics, and at least a somewhat muscular upper body.

But I suck at swimming. I've been in the water quite a lot over the years, but never developed
good strokes. I've considered myself a "sinker", etc., etc.

I've been at this "training" on my own for a month now, and have gotten up to 3x/week of about
2500m---a mile non-stop (pretty much) and some harder 50m's with rest. All freestyle. I have the
motivation, and I'm enjoying it, but I don't know what I'm doing. My endurance is getting a lot
better, as is my speed going hard, but my "cruising" speed seems little changed.

I have visited some websites (Total Immersion among them) to get ideas about stroke mechanics and
drills and stuff. I've tried to incorporate the basic ideas into my stroke. I guess it may be a
while before that translates into speed. I haven't really done many drills.

I haven't seen yet anything like there is so much of for running: programs sketching what to do in
every workout over the course of months---when to do mainly distance, when to do intervals (how
long, how hard, how much rest), when to do drills, etc.

My schedule doesn't allow me to get with a master's group (even though I use the Stanford and USF
pools where there are masters groups).

I'd be grateful for suggestions about how to design (or just find) a reasonable training program.

Sorry for the length of this.

Mark

Mark, Things just seem to be a bit at a low ebb these days.

There are a lot of good books out there that will spell out practices for you, and I have one at
home but I can't remember the name. I'll post it later.

Since you are near a University, I suggest doing what I did: find a member of the swim team to teach
you or just set up some workouts for you. My person charged $30 per hour, but she also did group
classes which took the total down.

Swimming seems to be an inherently somewhat frustrating sport (to which I attribute the fact that
this is a mostly civil newsgroup--everyone is too tired to fight most of the time). Recently a guy
joined my swim group saying that he "didn't really swim" and was a "beginner." Not only did he have
a nearly perfect crawl stroke, but he left me far behind when we actually swam...

Since you are a runner (there are many runners and triatheletes here) you may also want to look into
a triathelon newsgroup. Madelaine

Wow, thanks very much! You're absolutely right that my request was vague, but you did hit on exactly
the issues that I hoped to find out about.

Everybody recommends Masters groups, and your experience seems to be very relevant to my situation,
so I'll have to see what I can do. I work at Stanford, which has a great one, apparently. My work
schedule makes it hard or impossible for me to make their practices this fall, but things will be
different after the new year, so I will plan to join up then.

I will follow your advice and focus on drills. I have ordered the Total Immersion triathlon swimming
book and "Fishlike Freestyle" video, which should help me see how to do some of them right. I will
try to hook up with an instructor at Stanford if I feel I'm not confident about them.

Again, thanks very much for your advice---and also for posting about your training here.

Mark

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:uNo8b.34625$S_.1055@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

what do you mean by a "training program" ? Have a look at the master's swimming websites, a lot of
them have much of their workout routines posted. There is a number of books too that talk about
putting together a workout.

There aren't as many swimmers as there are runners, and swimming is

nowhere

Quoted message said:

nearly as commercialized as running is, so you won't find as much

'product',

Quoted message said:

but you will get a lot of info available within a team, lot of word of mouth, and let me show you
little something kind of a thing.

The best thing you can do is to make time to join a good masters group,

even

Quoted message said:

if for a while. Short of hiring a coach for private lessons (which most coaches are available for
that too, in this area the going rate seems to

be

Quoted message said:

$40-50 an hour, joining a masters team is where you will learn the most. Many Master's programs
have swimmers who have just few years ago been competing at national and international levels.

I tried swimming for 2 years before joining a masters team, and I've made more progress in 9 weeks
(after a 2 year break) than I have in 8 months of swimming on my own (and reading and
researching).

I'm gonna make a guess that your question was a bit too vague to draw the responses, because
you've eliminated the idea of what works the best (masters team), you said you already looked
at the TI and some other books... If you're just looking for some ideas to break up the
workouts, with

putting

Quoted message said:

up with about one advertising email a week, this place will email you workout ideas:
www.swim2000.com

Non stop laps and not much else will not do a whole lot for you. Timed drills, stroke drills etc.
mixed in with some distance laps on certain

days

Quoted message said:

work much better. Also, your goal seems to be a little bit vague, so I'm gonna guess people didn't
know what exactly to suggest.

You say you haven't done many drills.... do the drills. Swimming is

probably

Quoted message said:

good 80% technique, more technique than golf. (little bit unlike running, where conditioning comes
into play little

more)

Quoted message said:

If you want to get faster, a LOT of your workout will be technique

oriented,

Quoted message said:

till it becomes second nature. Proper conditioning, and building up

strength

Quoted message said:

for swimming, good part of it will come while you are practicing

technique.

Quoted message said:

Also, practice timed intervals. Use fins and pull buoys where the workout calls for them to
increase resistance.

It's not so much where you ask, but what you ask. It's hard to figure out where to even begin to
answer your question.

Still, THE best thing you can do for your swimming is to join a Master's group. You're going to
learn so much more then by reading. Another good source of learning is videos. Swimming technique
is sometimes too complex to put in words.

Oh, and if any of the Master's group advertise stroke clinics, take them.

What is it about your schedule that prevents you from joining a master's group? Up near you there
are some really great ones.

Oh, and get familiar with the usms.orgusms.orgOpen ↗

Thanks, Madelaine! The Stanford teams are full of Olympic types, so if I can find an instructor
through them I'm sure I'll be setting world records in no time! Triathlon groups is a good idea. I
have no interest in racing triathlons, but there must be lots of people in my situation, starting to
take swimming seriously with a running background.

Quoted message said:

Things just seem to be a bit at a low ebb these days.

There are a lot of good books out there that will spell out practices for you, and I have one at
home but I can't remember the name. I'll post it later.

Since you are near a University, I suggest doing what I did: find a member of the swim team to
teach you or just set up some workouts for you. My person charged $30 per hour, but she also did
group classes which took the total down.

Swimming seems to be an inherently somewhat frustrating sport (to which I attribute the fact that
this is a mostly civil newsgroup--everyone is too tired to fight most of the time). Recently a guy
joined my swim group saying that he "didn't really swim" and was a "beginner." Not only did he
have a nearly perfect crawl stroke, but he left me far behind when we actually swam...

Since you are a runner (there are many runners and triatheletes here) you may also want to look
into a triathelon newsgroup. Madelaine

"Mark C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wow, thanks very much! You're absolutely right that my request was vague, but you did hit on
exactly the issues that I hoped to find out about.

Everybody recommends Masters groups, and your experience seems to be very relevant to my
situation, so I'll have to see what I can do. I work at Stanford, which has a great one,
apparently. My work schedule makes it

hard

Quoted message said:

or impossible for me to make their practices this fall, but things will be different after the new
year, so I will plan to join up then.

I will follow your advice and focus on drills. I have ordered the Total Immersion triathlon
swimming book and "Fishlike Freestyle" video, which should help me see how to do some of them
right. I will try to hook up

with

Quoted message said:

an instructor at Stanford if I feel I'm not confident about them.

Again, thanks very much for your advice---and also for posting about your training here.

Mark

As for the strokes drills... read several books, try out what they're talking about... Then start
adapting what feels and works the best for your body style.

I like Total Immersion (TI) quite a bit, lot of useful stuff. I also don't follow it to a tee. I
don't think I follow anything to tee. I try stuff, and try to figure out if it's helping or not.

As for Masters... I love my group. They offer workouts 3 times a day... I've even turned into an
early morning bird, just because of it. Our weekday morning workouts are at 5AM.

DaKitty said:

As for the strokes drills... read several books, try out what they're talking about... Then start
adapting what feels and works the best for your body style.

I like Total Immersion (TI) quite a bit, lot of useful stuff. I also don't follow it to a tee. I
don't think I follow anything to tee. I try stuff, and try to figure out if it's helping or not.

As for Masters... I love my group. They offer workouts 3 times a day... I've even turned into an
early morning bird, just because of it. Our weekday morning workouts are at 5AM.

Some really good advice offered in previous comments - I'd just like to add a little note. When
doing drills it's really important to keep in mind what it is you're trying to accomplish. There
isn't much point in picking a drill out of a book & swimming it all day if you haven't looked at it
objectively & decided what the drill was for (& how).

The whole 'karate-kid-paint-the-fence-way-to-greatness' school of drilling is a really good way to
practice [censored] drills with poor form. Just my humble opinion.

--Mike

5am! I only recognize one five o'clock, and that's not it!

Mark

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1cL8b.36698$S_.15672@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

As for Masters... I love my group. They offer workouts 3 times a day...

I've

Quoted message said:

even turned into an early morning bird, just because of it. Our weekday morning workouts
are at 5AM.

Tell you what, before I started doing this, I only saw sunrise at most dozen times in my life. And
at work, they got used to me coming in at 9 or 9:30 instead of 8. 6AM used to be "Don't bother me,
I'm sleeping"

Funny how things change when one gets motivated. Some people who know me and haven't seen me go to
swim practice say: "what, she's getting up at 4:30 AM.... Riiiiight, and the sky is falling."

"Mark C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

5am! I only recognize one five o'clock, and that's not it!

Mark

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1cL8b.36698$S_.15672@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

As for Masters... I love my group. They offer workouts 3 times a day...

I've

Quoted message said:

even turned into an early morning bird, just because of it. Our weekday morning workouts are
at 5AM.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dakitty
[B]Tell you what, before I started doing this, I only saw sunrise at most dozen times in my life. And
at work, they got used to me coming in at 9 or 9:30 instead of 8. 6AM used to be "Don't bother me,
I'm sleeping"

Funny how things change when one gets motivated. Some people who know me and haven't seen me go to
swim practice say: "what, she's getting up at 4:30 AM.... Riiiiight, and the sky is falling."

"Mark C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

5am! I only recognize one five o'clock, and that's not it!

Mark

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1cL8b.36698$S_.15672@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

As for Masters... I love my group. They offer workouts 3 times a day...

I've

Quoted message said:

even turned into an early morning bird, just because of it. Our weekday morning workouts are
at 5AM.

[/B]

Cletus75 <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I trained 5 hours a day for 12 years and was still honing it towards the end there.

I've only been swimming a year and half, but I believe you.

Could you do me a favor?

Can you list the three biggest things that improved your swimming at the start of your career, when
you were starting out? I'm referring mainly to technique here.

Likewise, can you remember the three biggest things that improved your swimming at the end of your
career, out there in year 10-12 let's say?

thanks Eric