Trashing Doctors?

MD/PhD said:

Not really. Observations regarding Asian rice-eating populations is an easy
way to debunk Atkin's carb=obesity theories.

My bet is you know about Asians, don't you?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I once was a
vegetarian and thought that was the answer. Others think that
unrefined carbs are the answer. Yet, none of them fits this weird
definition of success that is floating around in this thread--that
once you get on the diet you will never get off and never gain any
weight back.

MD/PhD said:

There is one.

May I?

Thank you.

http://www.heartmdphd.com/wtloss.asp

I mentioned previously (in other posts) that I was 11 pounds
overweight by the Met Life tables. You have shown me nothing new.

How about you? What is your weight, height and BMI on the version of
Dr C's diet you are following?

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:14:00 GMT, Bob Cardone

cardone1!@!mindspring.com said:

Sorry, I missed that. Maybe I tired from reading the book length
posts on the greatness of Atkins.

Anyway, according to data from DCD, WHO, and Met Life, your body mass
index is too high and you are overweight.

Check it out for yourself

http://www.halls.md/ideal-weight/body.htm

Bob

1024Bytes said:

Bob, I told you my height was 6'1" in at least two other posts. Please
pay better attention before you get so accusatory.

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:08:01 GMT, Bob Cardone

cardone1!@!mindspring.com said:

You will do anything rather than tell us your height , wont you 🙂 ?

Bob

1024Bytes <[email hidden]> wrote:

>Good post. My personal experience is quite similar. As I mentioned in
>earlier posts, my weight has been down from 300+ in the late 1980s and
>1990 to just over 200 since 1992. I took off some of it with the
>Pritikin diet (ultra-high-carb, low-fat) and could not continue on
>that diet (it wreaks) and I switched to Atkins.
.
snip

JC Der Koenig said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

JC Der Koenig said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> JC Der Koenig wrote:
>
> > <profanities snipped>
>
> S/he's back.
>

<libelous/defamatory statements snipped>

JC, whoever you are, do you think it was wise the jump into this thread

where

Quoted message said:

there is an active discussion about the behavior of people like you,

thereby

Quoted message said:

arming folks with the material they will need to formally complain about

you to

Quoted message said:

your ISP?

Your header says that abuse complaints should be sent to
[email hidden]. Your ISP says that complaints should be sent to
[email hidden]. Libel and defamation seem to be two big no-nos for your

TOS.

Quoted message said:

Sorry for any inconvenience this may cause you.

Goodbye.

<libelous/defamatory statements snipped>

Wisdom is lost on the foolish.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

1024Bytes said:

That's one of the funniest things I have ever heard. And a clear
example that you will say anything...

I speak and write truthfully.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

1024Bytes said:

MD/PhD said:

1024Bytes said:

I don't know who your doctors are. The fact is that doctors bash the
diet based on a lack of science.

Quite the contrary.

We *know* from scientific research that simply giving someone a fatty (aka
atherogenic) shake to drink immediately causes measurable endothelial
dysfunction, a proven precursor to atherosclerosis.

Quoted message said:

If as you say there have been no
studies, on what basis are they bashing it? Gut? A desire for the
world to grasp the wonder of tofu?

Even among anti-Atkins nutritionists there is raging debate about what
kind of eating habits are healthy. There is no general agreement. Our
Dr. Chung here apparently thinks rice is the answer.

Not really. Observations regarding Asian rice-eating populations is an easy
way to debunk Atkin's carb=obesity theories.

Quoted message said:

I once was a
vegetarian and thought that was the answer. Others think that
unrefined carbs are the answer. Yet, none of them fits this weird
definition of success that is floating around in this thread--that
once you get on the diet you will never get off and never gain any
weight back.

There is one.

It is fun watching you push your diet. But the fun is over. I want to
see the proof that once you get on the diet you will never get off and
never gain any weight back.

Is that your requirement for trying any diet?

If so, why have you tried anything?

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

1024Bytes said:

Bob, I told you my height was 6'1" in at least two other posts. Please
pay better attention before you get so accusatory.

That would make your BMI = 29.1

Ideal is 20.

Overweight is more than 25.

Sorry for the bad news.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

1024Bytes said:

Form the 4th time in this string (and I am sure you will ignore this
one, too) I am 6'1" tall. As I said in a message today, I checked
again today and Met Life (the insurance company) says my ideal weight
is about 202 for my age and body frame. That means I am 6 pounds
overweight.

Speaking professionally as a cardiologist, a BMI of 20 is ideal. Your BMI
of 29.1 suggests that you are overweight (anything more than 25). Sorry.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

1024Bytes said:

Interesting that you missed so many messages about these very topics,
or maybe you don't like to read as much as you like to type. But I
know this about BMI. It's as fallible as your apparent reading skills.
Here from the NIH National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute.

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/public/heart/obesity/lose_wt/risk.htm#limitations

1. Body Mass Index (BMI)
BMI is a reliable indicator of total body fat, which is related to the
risk of disease and death. The score is valid for both men and women
but it does have some limits. The limits are:

+++++ It may overestimate body fat in athletes and others who have a
muscular build.
+++++It may underestimate body fat in older persons and others who
have lost muscle mass.

Even if I were not well-muscled (which I am) my BMI would not be
through the roof.

Based on your BMI (29.1), you are overweight. Sorry.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Martin W. Smith said:

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

Martin W. Smith said:

Courtney wrote:
>
> Of course not. Those doctors who think that everyone can loose weight on a
> low fat, high carbohydrate diet are the hypocrits.

Everyone *can* lose weight on a low fat, high carb diet, but a lot of
people don't stick with that kind of diet.

Correct. Especially, if one grew up as largely a meat-eater.

The ironic thing is, ime, the meat-eaters lose weight with Weight-Watchers even
though it is intolerable for them. The vegetable-eaters ("healthy food" eaters)
lose weight with Atkin's even though they hate it. Folks that tend to fail to
lose on Atkin's from the outset are the meat-eaters even though these folks tend
to defend Atkin's the most ardently.

I think you are saying that if you choose a weight-loss diet that is
opposite of your early diet, you will lose weight but hate the diet, and
that if you were a meat-eater as a child you will like Atkins but fail
with it. It makes sense, but I was an early meat-eater and Atkins
(generally low-carb) works well for me, and I actually like it. Am I
the exception that proves the rule?

Depends on whether you are at ideal BMI = 20.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

MD/PhD said:

1024Bytes said:

MD/PhD said:

1024Bytes wrote:

> I don't know who your doctors are. The fact is that doctors bash the
> diet based on a lack of science.

Quite the contrary.

We *know* from scientific research that simply giving someone a fatty (aka
atherogenic) shake to drink immediately causes measurable endothelial
dysfunction, a proven precursor to atherosclerosis.

> If as you say there have been no
> studies, on what basis are they bashing it? Gut? A desire for the
> world to grasp the wonder of tofu?
>
> Even among anti-Atkins nutritionists there is raging debate about what
> kind of eating habits are healthy. There is no general agreement. Our
> Dr. Chung here apparently thinks rice is the answer.

Not really. Observations regarding Asian rice-eating populations is an easy
way to debunk Atkin's carb=obesity theories.

> I once was a

(A)>> >> vegetarian and thought that was the answer. Others think that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> unrefined carbs are the answer. Yet, none of them fits this weird
> definition of success that is floating around in this thread--that
> once you get on the diet you will never get off and never gain any
> weight back.

(B)>> >There is one.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(C)>> It is fun watching you push your diet. But the fun is over. I
want to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

see the proof that once you get on the diet you will never get off and
never gain any weight back.

(D)>Is that your requirement for trying any diet?

Quoted message said:

If so, why have you tried anything?

Lessee....here (A) we have me commenting that this definition of a
diet's success was weird and then we have you (B) claiming there is a
diet people don't get off of and gain back weight and then we have me
(C) telling you to put your money where your mouth is and then we have
you (D) NOT putting your money where your mouth is, but switching
subjects (and ignoring the fact that only 4 grafs above (A) I had said
such a standard was weird). I can see there is a technique of
discussion involved here that involves changing the subject as often
as possible instead of discussing the issues you raise.

Again, sir, where is your proof that "there is one?"

MD/PhD said:

1024Bytes said:

Interesting that you missed so many messages about these very topics,
or maybe you don't like to read as much as you like to type. But I
know this about BMI. It's as fallible as your apparent reading skills.
Here from the NIH National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute.

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/public/heart/obesity/lose_wt/risk.htm#limitations

1. Body Mass Index (BMI)
BMI is a reliable indicator of total body fat, which is related to the
risk of disease and death. The score is valid for both men and women
but it does have some limits. The limits are:

+++++ It may overestimate body fat in athletes and others who have a
muscular build.
+++++It may underestimate body fat in older persons and others who
have lost muscle mass.

Even if I were not well-muscled (which I am) my BMI would not be
through the roof.

Based on your BMI (29.1), you are overweight. Sorry.

Importantly, I thought we were discussing the effectiveness of a diet.
You have decided to turn this into a an attempt to assassinate me
based on your assessment of my weight. Here are the facts you
apparently do not like: I took off more than 100 pounds since 1990,
kept it off and am sure that it will remain off. I am using Atkins to
do that.

And you are using bogus information to attempt to challenge my use of
Atkins in order to push your own diet. I just came back from the BMI
calculator and I am at 27.4, not the 29.1 level you cited. Are you
making up your own numbers here in order to make your case seem
stronger?

If Met Life ideal weight is considered, that makes me 1.05583756345178
percent overweight. That is ONE PERCENT. This is hardly obesity range.
Particularly since (as I have said and you have ignored) I am quite
well muscled and have been for many years.

I know this about BMI, the measure you apparently hold so dear. It's
not a cut and dry issue. Here from the NIH National Heart, Lung and
Blood Institute.

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/public/heart/obesity/lose_wt/risk.htm#limitations

1. Body Mass Index (BMI)
BMI is a reliable indicator of total body fat, which is related to the
risk of disease and death. The score is valid for both men and women
but it does have some limits. The limits are:

+++++ It may overestimate body fat in athletes and others who have a
muscular build.
+++++It may underestimate body fat in older persons and others who
have lost muscle mass.

It's odd that a doctor would say that someone who has taken off 100
pounds and kept it off for 10 years did it wrong or is doing it wrong.
And would knock the maintenance diet that is keeping it off when that
diet is quite close to the "balanced" diets pushed by so many
cardiologists. Your message is hollow.

1024Bytes said:

MD/PhD said:

1024Bytes said:

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:38:09 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>1024Bytes wrote:
>
>> I don't know who your doctors are. The fact is that doctors bash the
>> diet based on a lack of science.
>
>Quite the contrary.
>
>We *know* from scientific research that simply giving someone a fatty (aka
>atherogenic) shake to drink immediately causes measurable endothelial
>dysfunction, a proven precursor to atherosclerosis.
>
>> If as you say there have been no
>> studies, on what basis are they bashing it? Gut? A desire for the
>> world to grasp the wonder of tofu?
>>
>> Even among anti-Atkins nutritionists there is raging debate about what
>> kind of eating habits are healthy. There is no general agreement. Our
>> Dr. Chung here apparently thinks rice is the answer.
>
>Not really. Observations regarding Asian rice-eating populations is an easy
>way to debunk Atkin's carb=obesity theories.
>
>> I once was a

(A)>> >> vegetarian and thought that was the answer. Others think that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> unrefined carbs are the answer. Yet, none of them fits this weird
>> definition of success that is floating around in this thread--that
>> once you get on the diet you will never get off and never gain any
>> weight back.
>

(B)>> >There is one.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(C)>> It is fun watching you push your diet. But the fun is over. I
want to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

see the proof that once you get on the diet you will never get off and
never gain any weight back.

(D)>Is that your requirement for trying any diet?

Quoted message said:

If so, why have you tried anything?

Lessee....here (A) we have me commenting that this definition of a
diet's success was weird and then we have you (B) claiming there is a
diet people don't get off of and gain back weight and then we have me
(C) telling you to put your money where your mouth is and then we have
you (D) NOT putting your money where your mouth is, but switching
subjects (and ignoring the fact that only 4 grafs above (A) I had said
such a standard was weird). I can see there is a technique of
discussion involved here that involves changing the subject as often
as possible instead of discussing the issues you raise.

Again, sir, where is your proof that "there is one?"

That proof is a work in progress. You may be dead before that proof is realized,
however.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

1024Bytes said:

MD/PhD said:

1024Bytes said:

Interesting that you missed so many messages about these very topics,
or maybe you don't like to read as much as you like to type. But I
know this about BMI. It's as fallible as your apparent reading skills.
Here from the NIH National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute.

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/public/heart/obesity/lose_wt/risk.htm#limitations

1. Body Mass Index (BMI)
BMI is a reliable indicator of total body fat, which is related to the
risk of disease and death. The score is valid for both men and women
but it does have some limits. The limits are:

+++++ It may overestimate body fat in athletes and others who have a
muscular build.
+++++It may underestimate body fat in older persons and others who
have lost muscle mass.

Even if I were not well-muscled (which I am) my BMI would not be
through the roof.

Based on your BMI (29.1), you are overweight. Sorry.

Importantly, I thought we were discussing the effectiveness of a diet.
You have decided to turn this into a an attempt to assassinate me
based on your assessment of my weight.

You seem overly sensitive about your BMI. Why?

Quoted message said:

Here are the facts you
apparently do not like: I took off more than 100 pounds since 1990,
kept it off and am sure that it will remain off. I am using Atkins to
do that.

What's there not to like? If I were your doctor, however, I would be concerned that
being on Atkins may be either causing lipid derrangements or elevating hsCRP placing you
at higher risk for coronary disease.

Quoted message said:

And you are using bogus information to attempt to challenge my use of
Atkins in order to push your own diet.

Why do you think your BMI is bogus?

Quoted message said:

I just came back from the BMI
calculator and I am at 27.4, not the 29.1 level you cited. Are you
making up your own numbers here in order to make your case seem
stronger?

Oops, sorry. I used 71 inches instead of 73 inches to calculate your BMI. With 73
inches, I get 27.5 which being more than 25 is still suggesting that you are
overweight. Sorry.

Quoted message said:

If Met Life ideal weight is considered, that makes me 1.05583756345178
percent overweight. That is ONE PERCENT. This is hardly obesity range.
Particularly since (as I have said and you have ignored) I am quite
well muscled and have been for many years.

Though not obese, you would still be considered "overweight" based on your BMI.

Quoted message said:

I know this about BMI, the measure you apparently hold so dear. It's
not a cut and dry issue. Here from the NIH National Heart, Lung and
Blood Institute.

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/public/heart/obesity/lose_wt/risk.htm#limitations

1. Body Mass Index (BMI)
BMI is a reliable indicator of total body fat, which is related to the
risk of disease and death. The score is valid for both men and women
but it does have some limits. The limits are:

+++++ It may overestimate body fat in athletes and others who have a
muscular build.
+++++It may underestimate body fat in older persons and others who
have lost muscle mass.

No claim has been made that BMI is absolute in determining adiposity.

Quoted message said:

It's odd that a doctor would say that someone who has taken off 100
pounds and kept it off for 10 years did it wrong or is doing it wrong.

Being 100 lbs lighter is a good thing. Hopefully, that has offset the means.

Quoted message said:

And would knock the maintenance diet that is keeping it off when that
diet is quite close to the "balanced" diets pushed by so many
cardiologists. Your message is hollow.

Looking at the Atkin's recipes for maintenance, there are grounds for concern.

How is your lipid profile and hsCRP anyway?

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Depends on whether you are at ideal BMI = 20.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

BMI is a RANGE..... being at 20 is NOT the "ideal"

Tiger Lily said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Depends on whether you are at ideal BMI = 20.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

BMI is a RANGE..... being at 20 is NOT the "ideal"

Speaking professionally as a cardiologist, a BMI of 20 is "ideal." What
one may call "normal" is a range.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Bob Pastorio said:

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

1024Bytes said:

That's one of the funniest things I have ever heard. And a clear
example that you will say anything...

I speak and write truthfully.

Perhaps you can explain your version of the "truth" here in this other
post from today.

Already have shown the truth in what I wrote in responding to your other
post just a little while ago.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

Bob Pastorio said:

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

1024Bytes wrote:

>That's one of the funniest things I have ever heard. And a clear
>example that you will say anything...
>
I speak and write truthfully.

Perhaps you can explain your version of the "truth" here in this other
post from today.

Already have shown the truth in what I wrote in responding to your other
post just a little while ago.

Oh, Chungy, you cut out all the stuff that shows your lies. Now how
can anyone see you for the fraud you are if you keep trying to sweep
it under you figurative carpet. Here, let me put it back together for
Google and the ages.

Just because you say you're a seeker of truth, even if you seem
incapable of offering it yourself, here's the post with the facts
restored:

<<<<<<< Begin quoted post >>>>>>>>>>>>

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

Mack said:

MD/PhD said:

Fwiw, I am all for little to no name-calling.

so why did you accuse pastori of using illegal drugs?

Didn't. Should be easy for you to cite the post to prove otherwise.

Chung you most assuredly did. You are, therefore, by your own actions,
demonstrably a liar.

How many do you want? This enough?

http://tinyurl.com/lm33
http://tinyurl.com/lm37
http://tinyurl.com/lm38
http://tinyurl.com/lm3b
http://tinyurl.com/lm3m
http://tinyurl.com/lm3p
http://tinyurl.com/lm42

<<<<<<<< end quoted post >>>>>>>>

Didn't accuse me of using hallucinogenic mushrooms, huh? Gee, maybe
you did and ...Ooooops.... here are your own words to show it.

Pastorio

Bob Pastorio said:

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

Bob Pastorio said:

Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

>1024Bytes wrote:
>
>>That's one of the funniest things I have ever heard. And a clear
>>example that you will say anything...
>>
>I speak and write truthfully.

Perhaps you can explain your version of the "truth" here in this other
post from today.

Already have shown the truth in what I wrote in responding to your other
post just a little while ago.

Oh, Chungy, you cut out all the stuff that shows your lies.

Just trying to stay on topic.

Fwiw, you'll find no post from me claiming that Mr. Pastorio is using illegal
drugs.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bob Pastorio wrote:

>Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>I speak and write truthfully.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh, Chungy, you cut out all the stuff that shows your lies.

Just trying to stay on topic.

Nah. Just trying frantically to dig yourself out of the hole you've
dug all around you.

Quoted message said:

Fwiw, you'll find no post from me claiming that Mr. Pastorio is using illegal
drugs.

What's the matter, Chung. Finally figured out that lying about what I
do and implying illegal activity on my part is libelous? Not the
remotest prayer of defending it? A little scared about what could
happen to you for spreading these scurrilous untruths? Your excited
scrambling to deny the self-evident shows a little panic. Poor guy.
Got a flash on himself looking even more foolish than usual.

Chung hasn't "claimed" that I use illegal drugs. He implies it with
repeated references to them. The worst lawyer in town could have fun
with that. A good one would be absolutely ecstatic.

Excerpts from Chung's posts directed at me:

<http://tinyurl.com/lngo>

Chung writes:
<Chef Pastorio's vivid hallucinatory "trip" snipped>

Those Chefs tend to eat everything they can get their hands on. Gotta
watch out for those "pink" spotted mushrooms.
------------------------

http://tinyurl.com/lnh7

Chung writes:
You really should stay away from those mushrooms.

--------------------
http://tinyurl.com/lnhg

Chung writes:
I smell make believe here. Must be those mushrooms you've been eating.
--------------------

Too much trouble to post *all* the URLs that show Chung lying. Here's
the whole search page from Google. <http://tinyurl.com/lnig>

Pastorio

Tiger Lily said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Depends on whether you are at ideal BMI = 20.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

BMI is a RANGE..... being at 20 is NOT the "ideal"

If you have cardio problems, they will try and get your BMI as low as
possible in the range to minimize possible problems down the road.

Bob