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Trashing Doctors?

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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24 August 2003
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8 September 2003
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Al. Lohse
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  1. I do not think that this should be a forum for trashing
    doctors in any way.

    Doctors do make mistakes, at times many of them are acting
    under false impressions (Hormone replacement for heart
    health, for instance.) not of their own making.

    When you consult a doctor, you are asking for his or her
    best opinion regarding your condition based on a literal
    mountain of knowledge he or she has acquired and is
    continuing to acquire.

    Doctors are very special people. They, unlike most of us,
    spend most of their 20's in school. Most do not earn a dime
    until they are 30. Med school tuitions, especially in the
    US, are outrageously high. For these reasons alone, doctors
    are entitled, in my opinion, to a substantially comfortable
    income.

    Another thing that makes doctors special is that they see
    the ugliness of all manner of human maladies on a continuing
    basis and know that these can also visit them and their
    loved ones. Most of us are not exposed to these realities
    very often. I have, for instance, never told anyone they
    have six months to live, have you?

    Then, there is the process before being allowed to study
    medicine. They have to make a lifetime commitment when still
    quite young and they have to be amongst the best and
    brightest of their generation.

    Do they make mistakes? Yes, they are human.

    Are they greedy? Not most!

    Are they conformists? You bet.

    Can the entire profession be misled by the strong commercial
    interests of others? Of course; Why do they all drive
    Buicks?

    Let us not trash them but work with them. Our points of view
    are better expressed with realistic, sober dispassionate
    discussion than with anger or frustration. We need the
    doctors in this news group. Hopefully, they also get
    something out of our questions and our points of view.

    My opinion, based on observations.

    A.L.

  2. agree

  3. Very well said.

    "Al. Lohse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    I do not think that this should be a forum for trashing
    doctors in any way.

    Doctors do make mistakes, at times many of them are acting
    under false impressions (Hormone replacement for heart
    health, for instance.) not of their own making.

    When you consult a doctor, you are asking for his or her
    best opinion regarding your condition based on a literal
    mountain of knowledge he or she has acquired and is
    continuing to acquire.

    Doctors are very special people. They, unlike most of us,
    spend most of their 20's in school. Most do not earn a dime
    until they are 30. Med school tuitions, especially in the
    US, are outrageously high. For these reasons alone, doctors
    are entitled, in my opinion, to a substantially comfortable
    income.

    Another thing that makes doctors special is that they see
    the ugliness of all manner of human maladies on a continuing
    basis and know that these can also visit them and their
    loved ones. Most of us are not exposed to these realities
    very often. I have, for instance, never told anyone they
    have six months to live, have you?

    Then, there is the process before being allowed to study
    medicine. They have to make a lifetime commitment when still
    quite young and they have to be amongst the best and
    brightest of their generation.

    Do they make mistakes? Yes, they are human.

    Are they greedy? Not most!

    Are they conformists? You bet.

    Can the entire profession be misled by the strong commercial
    interests of others? Of course; Why do they all drive
    Buicks?

    Let us not trash them but work with them. Our points of view
    are better expressed with realistic, sober dispassionate
    discussion than with anger or frustration. We need the
    doctors in this news group. Hopefully, they also get
    something out of our questions and our points of view.

    My opinion, based on observations.

    A.L.

  4. Doctors are no better or worse than the rest of the human race, there are
    good and there are bad. The bad ones need to be weeded out. Lives after
    all can be at stake. A very small percentage I am sure, but as I state on
    my website "Good Doctors go astray when they leave their area of expertise
    to offer opinion when they have not studied the literature, selectively
    ignore information or when they let their politics, beliefs or prejudices
    interfere with the objectivity of their science". Unfortunately I speak
    from from experience.

    --
    auntie_biotic
    http://www.tbandu.co.uk

    "Al. Lohse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    I do not think that this should be a forum for trashing
    doctors in any way.

    Doctors do make mistakes, at times many of them are acting
    under false impressions (Hormone replacement for heart
    health, for instance.) not of their own making.

    When you consult a doctor, you are asking for his or her
    best opinion regarding your condition based on a literal
    mountain of knowledge he or she has acquired and is
    continuing to acquire.

    Doctors are very special people. They, unlike most of us,
    spend most of their 20's in school. Most do not earn a dime
    until they are 30. Med school tuitions, especially in the
    US, are outrageously high. For these reasons alone, doctors
    are entitled, in my opinion, to a substantially comfortable
    income.

    Another thing that makes doctors special is that they see
    the ugliness of all manner of human maladies on a continuing
    basis and know that these can also visit them and their
    loved ones. Most of us are not exposed to these realities
    very often. I have, for instance, never told anyone they
    have six months to live, have you?

    Then, there is the process before being allowed to study
    medicine. They have to make a lifetime commitment when still
    quite young and they have to be amongst the best and
    brightest of their generation.

    Do they make mistakes? Yes, they are human.

    Are they greedy? Not most!

    Are they conformists? You bet.

    Can the entire profession be misled by the strong commercial
    interests of others? Of course; Why do they all drive
    Buicks?

    Let us not trash them but work with them. Our points of view
    are better expressed with realistic, sober dispassionate
    discussion than with anger or frustration. We need the
    doctors in this news group. Hopefully, they also get
    something out of our questions and our points of view.

    My opinion, based on observations.

    A.L.

  5. I'll certainly check out your website.

    What I was getting at was, that it is not fair game to take
    out frustrations someone might have with some doctors on the
    doctors monitoring this newsgroup.

    Agreed?

    Thanking you for the comment,
    A.L.

    auntie_biotic said:


    Doctors are no better or worse than the rest of the human race, there are
    good and there are bad. The bad ones need to be weeded out. Lives after
    all can be at stake. A very small percentage I am sure, but as I state on
    my website "Good Doctors go astray when they leave their area of expertise
    to offer opinion when they have not studied the literature, selectively
    ignore information or when they let their politics, beliefs or prejudices
    interfere with the objectivity of their science". Unfortunately I speak
    from from experience.

    --
    auntie_biotic
    http://www.tbandu.co.uk

  6. "Al. Lohse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I do not think that this should be a forum for trashing
    doctors in any way.

    OK. But what the hell is a Buick?
    MFG

    Quoted message said:

    Doctors do make mistakes, at times many of them are acting
    under false impressions (Hormone replacement for heart
    health, for instance.) not of their own making.

    When you consult a doctor, you are asking for his or her
    best opinion regarding your condition based on a literal
    mountain of knowledge he or she has acquired and is
    continuing to acquire.

    Doctors are very special people. They, unlike most of us,
    spend most of their 20's in school. Most do not earn a dime
    until they are 30. Med school tuitions, especially in the
    US, are outrageously high. For these reasons alone, doctors
    are entitled, in my opinion, to a substantially comfortable
    income.

    Another thing that makes doctors special is that they see
    the ugliness of all manner of human maladies on a continuing
    basis and know that these can also visit them and their
    loved ones. Most of us are not exposed to these realities
    very often. I have, for instance, never told anyone they
    have six months to live, have you?

    Then, there is the process before being allowed to study
    medicine. They have to make a lifetime commitment when still
    quite young and they have to be amongst the best and
    brightest of their generation.

    Do they make mistakes? Yes, they are human.

    Are they greedy? Not most!

    Are they conformists? You bet.

    Can the entire profession be misled by the strong commercial
    interests of others? Of course; Why do they all drive
    Buicks?

    Let us not trash them but work with them. Our points of view
    are better expressed with realistic, sober dispassionate
    discussion than with anger or frustration. We need the
    doctors in this news group. Hopefully, they also get
    something out of our questions and our points of view.

    My opinion, based on observations.

    A.L.

  7. mfg said:


    "Al. Lohse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I do not think that this should be a forum for trashing
    doctors in any way.

    OK. But what the hell is a Buick?
    MFG


    An automobile. There was an ad campaign about 20-25 years
    ago that suggested most doctors drove Buicks.

    Sorry for the lack of geographical sensitivity. :-)

    A.L.

  8. "Al. Lohse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I do not think that this should be a forum for trashing
    doctors in any way.


    <snip>

    The folks doing the trashing are invaders primarily for the low-carb
    groups who are upset by my opinions and comments concerning their WOE.

    You should probably killfile them.

    --
    Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
    Board-Certified Cardiologist
    http://www.heartmdphd.com

  9. "Al. Lohse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    mfg said:


    "Al. Lohse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I do not think that this should be a forum for trashing
    doctors in any way.

    OK. But what the hell is a Buick?
    MFG

    Al Lohse said: 20-25 years ago

    Not geography. My doctor drives a Toyota. But she holidays on Club Pfizer.
    MFG

  10. On 24 Aug 2003 21:15:30 -0700, [email hidden] (Dr. Andrew B.

    Chung said:
    Quoted message said:

    I do not think that this should be a forum for trashing
    doctors in any way.


    <snip>

    The folks doing the trashing are invaders primarily for the low-carb
    groups who are upset by my opinions and comments concerning their WOE.

    In all fairness I should mention that your ideas went to their
    newsgroup first. (that is both your criticism of their WOE and the
    2PD) Though they were not sent there by you initially, they were
    shoved down their throats. Nobody likes that so it is understandable
    that they would lash back.

    However, on the other side, low carbers don't seem to have very thick
    skin. Michael Fumento (The Fat of the Land) has made some negative
    editorials about Atkins and has received a metric assload of hate mail
    and he didn't invade any of their forums. If the Atkins diet is
    working for you then it doesn't matter what others think, especially
    people who don't know you from Adam.

    PS. I lost 70lbs on Atkins but they use to bash me for daring to
    suggest that calories still count.

    --
    Ron Ritzman
    http://www.panix.com/~ritzlart
    Smart people can figure out my email address

  11. Ron Ritzman said:

    On 24 Aug 2003 21:15:30 -0700, [email hidden] (Dr. Andrew B.

    Chung said:
    Quoted message said:

    I do not think that this should be a forum for trashing
    doctors in any way.


    <snip>

    The folks doing the trashing are invaders primarily for the low-carb
    groups who are upset by my opinions and comments concerning their WOE.

    In all fairness I should mention that your ideas went to their
    newsgroup first. (that is both your criticism of their WOE and the
    2PD) Though they were not sent there by you initially, they were
    shoved down their throats. Nobody likes that so it is understandable
    that they would lash back.

    However, on the other side, low carbers don't seem to have very thick
    skin. Michael Fumento (The Fat of the Land) has made some negative
    editorials about Atkins and has received a metric assload of hate mail
    and he didn't invade any of their forums. If the Atkins diet is
    working for you then it doesn't matter what others think, especially
    people who don't know you from Adam.

    PS. I lost 70lbs on Atkins but they use to bash me for daring to
    suggest that calories still count.

    What is strange is that I have never met anyone and I mean anyone ,
    that has told me that they were on the Atkins Diet for a "long period
    of time" ( meaning more that 2 years for instance,) and had kept
    the weight that they had lost on the diet off I meet people
    continually as part of my job , to the tune of maybe 8-12 people each
    week . I generally spend a few days with each of these groups of
    people , and many times the subject of diets and food comes up, since
    we go out to eat together. You would think that somewhere along the
    line, I would have had one person say to me " Oh yes, I have been on
    Atkins for 2 1/2 years and have lost X number of pounds and have never
    gained it back".

    If the Atkins diet is so successful, where are all these people that
    it has helped, long term ?

    Bob

  12. On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:16:09 GMT, Bob Cardone

    cardone1!@!mindspring.com said:

    Well, my idea of a Diet that works is one that accomplishes sustained
    weight loss.

    Diets don't accomplish sustained weight loss, dieters do.

    --
    Ron Ritzman
    http://www.panix.com/~ritzlart
    Smart people can figure out my email address

  13. Ron Ritzman said:

    Because most people "try Atkins" for a few weeks or at most a few
    months, lose some pounds, go back to the way they were eating before
    and gain it back. Same thing happens on every other diet plan both
    commercial and book. That's why my definition of a diet "working" is
    if it gets the weight off and by that definition, all of them work.

    Correct. However, in my definition of "working" I include longevity
    in keeping to the WOE. None, zero, none of the commercial diets offer
    longevity to plan.

    Quoted message said:

    Is Dr. Chung's 2PD a solution to that problem? Perhaps but the sample
    size is too small and it hasn't been around long enough to make the
    call.

    You know, Ron, that call will most probably never be made but it
    doesn't deter the fact that the 2PDiet works and works well for many.

    Quoted message said:

    f it has a weakness it would be the same one the other plans
    have. That is you have to change your behavior and your whole attitude
    toward food (eat to live not live to eat as Dr. Chung would say) and
    changing any kind of behavior is something that most people suck at.

    Yes, which would bring us to the discussion of how much of weight
    loss/management is a psychological issue regardless of diet.

    How many folks will never see ideal BW due to "issues"?

  14. On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:16:09 GMT, Bob Cardone

    cardone1!@!mindspring.com said:

    Well, my idea of a Diet that works is one that accomplishes sustained
    weight loss. For this reason alone, I think Atkins is a very poor
    diet, since it obviously doesn't work long term .

    Atkins isn't a poor diet it is a travesty of a diet. The end result
    is most commonly a regain of additional weight and the yo-yo effect is
    often worse than staying obese.

    Atkins knew this and promoted it anyway. That's a heartless and
    self-centered approach especially for a cardiologist under his
    Hypocritic Oath.

  15. Ron Ritzman said:
    Quoted message said:

    Well, my idea of a Diet that works is one that accomplishes sustained
    weight loss.

    Diets don't accomplish sustained weight loss, dieters do.

    Next time you bite my butt for being a hair-splitter, I am going to
    remember this.

    lol

  16. Think about what you are saying. Somebody goes on a "diet," loses
    weight. Goes back to the Twinkies and Nestle's Qwik eating habits that
    packed the pounds on in the first place, and you blame the diet on
    which they lost weight. What a definition.

    On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:16:09 GMT, Bob Cardone

    cardone1!@!mindspring.com said:

    Well, my idea of a Diet that works is one that accomplishes sustained
    weight loss. For this reason alone, I think Atkins is a very poor
    diet, since it obviously doesn't work long term .

    Bob

    Ron Ritzman said:
    Bob Cardone said:

    What is strange is that I have never met anyone and I mean anyone ,
    that has told me that they were on the Atkins Diet for a "long period
    of time" ( meaning more that 2 years for instance,)

    Because most people "try Atkins" for a few weeks or at most a few
    months, lose some pounds, go back to the way they were eating before
    and gain it back. Same thing happens on every other diet plan both
    commercial and book. That's why my definition of a diet "working" is
    if it gets the weight off and by that definition, all of them work.
    Keeping the weight off once you reach goal is a whole nuther battle.
    One that most dieters unfortunately lose.

    Is Dr. Chung's 2PD a solution to that problem? Perhaps but the sample
    size is too small and it hasn't been around long enough to make the
    call. If it has a weakness it would be the same one the other plans
    have. That is you have to change your behavior and your whole attitude
    toward food (eat to live not live to eat as Dr. Chung would say) and
    changing any kind of behavior is something that most people suck at.

  17. I think the anti-diet thread has gotten to extremes. Losing weight and
    keeping it off requires a sea change in dietary habits. Period. Any
    resumption of unhealthy eating results in regaining the weight. Once
    your body creates a fat cell, the cell never dies. It just sits there
    and waits for an extra calorie to store.

    I have personal experience here. I am 6'1" and weighed 309 in 1990. I
    went through insanity with the Pritikin diet to get to very near my
    ideal weight by 1992. I have remained within a few pounds of that
    weight since. I don't recommend Pritikin to anyone. It's misery. For
    anyone who doesn't know, Pritikin is the opposite of Atkins: all
    unrefined carbs.

    However, I have used the maintenance version of Atkins for quite some
    time and remain at or about 208, which is near-ideal for my age and
    body type. I can't guess about your knowledge, but people who rail
    against Atkins almost never know anything about the maintenance phase
    of the diet and should spend some time learning about it. It's
    extremely healthy, and quite near what many balanced nutritionists
    recommend for anyone.

    Beyond that, examine the most recent findings on the Atkins diet and
    you have to at least question your assumptions that it is unhealthy.
    One example:

    http://www.msnbc.com/news/916555.asp?cp1=1

    Here is a short clip from that article: A month after Dr. Robert C.
    Atkins’ death, his much-ridiculed diet has received its most powerful
    scientific support yet: Two studies in one of medicine’s most
    distinguished journals show it really does help people lose weight
    faster without raising their cholesterol.

    Blasting any diet because people get off it, resume their old eating
    habits and regain their weight is the extreme position. In a way, it's
    like saying drinking beer doesn't work because you drink three and it
    gives you a good buzz, but the buzz goes away when you stop drinking.

    No matter whether you call a weight-loss technique a diet or something
    else, If you resume eating the way you ate to become overweight, you
    will gain the weight back. And that is not an extreme statement.

    It's also not extreme to say that people eat radically fattening diets
    (maybe not Twinkies and Nestle's Qwik, but radically fattening) to
    bloat to the point of injuring their health in the first place. The
    percentage of obese people who have metabolic problems severe enough
    that it causes them to become obese on a rational diet is incredibly
    small.

    This European example is old, and tired and untrue at least in great
    part. There are certain dietary habits in certain Europeans nations
    that do contribute to rational weight. One of them in many Europeans
    countries is a diet that is quite near the Atkiis maintenance diet. In
    other parts of Europe, obesity is extremely common because of a high
    intake of carbs.

    I agree with your take on exercise. Obese people often give that up at
    the same time they give up reason when it comes to the grocery store.

    Your neighbor's behaviour, by the way, has nothing to do with Atkins
    working or not working. And if that neighbor is eating the equivalent
    of Twinkies and Nestle's Qwik, driving to the mailbox rather than
    walking is the least of his/her problems. It is true to say that
    people (including myself 12 years ago) become obese for reasons other
    than hunger. It also is true that getting control of food intake in a
    rational way leaves room to deal with those other reasons.

    On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:30:45 GMT, Bob Cardone

    cardone1!@!mindspring.com said:
    1024Bytes said:


    Think about what you are saying. Somebody goes on a "diet," loses
    weight. Goes back to the Twinkies and Nestle's Qwik eating habits that
    packed the pounds on in the first place, and you blame the diet on
    which they lost weight. What a definition.

    Please, don't go to extremes. A Person goes on a diet that is
    basically unhealthy long term like Atkins, ( if I am wrong please
    site study that disproves what I just stated), finds that it is
    impossible to stick with, and goes back to eating the way they did
    pre-diet. The real problem is the person is probably taking in more
    calories than they are burning doing exercise.

    Visit Europe, people over there are not eating the Atkins diet that I
    could see, but you see very few fat people, compared to the US where
    it seems like every other person is Obese.

    I have a neighbor that gets in his car to drive to the community
    mailbox which is about a city block from his front door , to pick up
    his mail. Is he fat, you bet he is.

    Bob

  18. 1024Bytes said:


    However, I have used the maintenance version of Atkins for quite some
    time and remain at or about 208, which is near-ideal for my age and
    body type. I can't guess about your knowledge, but people who rail
    against Atkins almost never know anything about the maintenance phase
    of the diet and should spend some time learning about it. It's
    extremely healthy, and quite near what many balanced nutritionists
    recommend for anyone.

    Beyond that, examine the most recent findings on the Atkins diet and
    you have to at least question your assumptions that it is unhealthy.
    One example:

    http://www.msnbc.com/news/916555.asp?cp1=1

    In reading the article on the link you posted, it states that LDL
    showed very little change on the Atkins diet. It also states that the
    initial rapid weight loss , more rapid than a low fat diet for
    instance , by the end of a year is not that much different from any
    other diet. It also states that people on the Atkins diet are just as
    likely to drop out of the diet as any other diet. Finally it mentions
    that no long term studies have been done with this diet.

    So what do we have , a diet that's main claim to fame is that it
    causes you to rapidly lose weight at first ( so would eating only
    grapefruits for a couple of months ) Meanwhile, a person on this diet
    is not eating many foods that are healthy. I have not met one doctor
    that has spoken well of this diet.

    Bob

  19. 1024Bytes said:

    Once
    your body creates a fat cell, the cell never dies. It just sits there
    and waits for an extra calorie to store.

    The common wisdom use to be that one has a set number of fat cells but
    now it is thought that the body makes more when needed and under
    certain circumstances, the body does get rid of them. In any case,
    what determines how fat you are isn't the number of fat cells but how
    much triglyceride each cell holds. While it may be true that those
    with more fat cells might have a harder time fighting obesity, he
    still won't get fat unless he eats the food.

    One theory on why fat people get diabetes is that the fat cell can
    only hold so much triglyceride, if such people are deficient in their
    body's ability to make more fat cells, then there is no place for
    excess nutrients to go so glucose and triglyceride levels shoot
    through the roof and boom, you have diabetes. Sure would explain why
    some people get diabetes after gaining 15 extra pounds while others
    become as big as houses but still have completely normal HgbA1C.

    --
    Ron Ritzman
    http://www.panix.com/~ritzlart
    Smart people can figure out my email address

  20. JC Der Koenig said:

    <profanities snipped>

    S/he's back.

    --
    Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
    Board-Certified Cardiologist
    http://www.heartmdphd.com/

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