Two 6-beats?

4precious said:

In a two-beat kicking pattern, when extending the recovering arm forward into the water, the
OPPOSITE leg has just finished it's downbeat, and therefore is deep in the water. For example,
left arm finishing its stroke (upsweep), downward kick with left leg, right arm extending foward
into the water. And Maglischo is correct that turning this pattern into a six beat is very easy to
do. You simply add two beats before the next big downbeat on the opposite side.

That makes it simple, not easy. I agree the change is simple, but for some of us it is not easy.

Quoted message said:

But guess what? That's NOT the same timing of many of the men. For example, Ian Thorpe, Jeff
Goldblatt, and Pieter VDH. For those men, when they extend their recovering arm forward into the
water, the SAME leg is doing a downbeat. This changes the timing completely. Instead of finishing
the armstroke with a kick on the same side, the kick now comes from the other side.

The reasons for doing this seem two-fold to me. One, they get a big kick right when their
recovering hand enters the water, and this is the point of maximum decelertion during the cycle.
And two, it looks more natural for the breathing. It's not easy to kick down with the right leg at
the same time you are rotating your torso to the right to breath. Much easy to kick with the left
at that point.

THIS six beat rhythym, the pattern of Thorpe, Hackett, VDH, is NOT easy to learn. I assume they
had to spend some time learning it themselves.

My opinion is that it probably can't be learned by most people. I believe it requires a different
wiring pattern in the brain, one that allows more degrees of freedom for the controling the separate
upper body and lower body systems. I mean it requires something like being able to play two
different melodies on the piano at the same time, one with the left hand and one with the right. I
suppose the best concert pianists can do this, but it isn't the same thing as playing the melody
with one hand and the accompanyment with the other. So I don't think you can learn this second
six-beat kick. You either can do it or you can't, depending on whether your brain is wired for it or
not, and if your brain is wired for it, you will probably discover it naturally.

martin

--
Draft Wesley Clark for President! www.DraftWesleyClark.com

Martin Smith email: [email hidden]

"4precious" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm sitting here perusing Ernest Maglischo's very lenghty volume, "Swimming Fastest". He has a
section on the 6-beat kick with illustrations. He writes, "The six-beat rhythm is so natural that
most swimmers perfect it through trial and error with little or no instruction".

Well I'm pretty sure that ain't the whole story. I've been studying 6-beat kicking patterns for a
while, and it's pretty easy to tell that they are NOT all the same.

It's taken a bit of time, but here's what I think is going on. This is the kind of thing where
still photographs posted on a website would come in handy, but I don't have one. In lieu of that,
I would like to refer concisely to video files on Donald Graft's site, along with time stamps
printed on the video to be precise. But his site has been down all day - I hope it's no permanent.

So here's my main idea:

In a two-beat kicking pattern, when extending the recovering arm forward into the water, the
OPPOSITE leg has just finished it's downbeat, and therefore is deep in the water. For example,
left arm finishing its stroke (upsweep), downward kick with left leg, right arm extending foward
into the water. And Maglischo is correct that turning this pattern into a six beat is very easy to
do. You simply add two beats before the next big downbeat on the opposite side. Look at video of
Diana Munz when she's using a six-beat and this will become apparent.

But guess what? That's NOT the same timing of many of the men. For example, Ian Thorpe, Jeff
Goldblatt, and Pieter VDH. For those men, when they extend their recovering arm forward into the
water, the SAME leg is doing a downbeat. This changes the timing completely. Instead of finishing
the armstroke with a kick on the same side, the kick now comes from the other side.

The reasons for doing this seem two-fold to me. One, they get a big kick right when their
recovering hand enters the water, and this is the point of maximum decelertion during the cycle.
And two, it looks more natural for the breathing. It's not easy to kick down with the right leg at
the same time you are rotating your torso to the right to breath. Much easy to kick with the left
at that point.

THIS six beat rhythym, the pattern of Thorpe, Hackett, VDH, is NOT easy to learn. I assume they
had to spend some time learning it themselves.

Or maybe they have adapted the basic 6-beat to fit them better, personally???

Quoted message said:

If anyone out there has mastered this rhythm, I'd like to know how they did it.

Eric

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dakitty
[B]"4precious" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm sitting here perusing Ernest Maglischo's very lenghty volume, "Swimming Fastest". He has a
section on the 6-beat kick with illustrations. He writes, "The six-beat rhythm is so natural that
most swimmers perfect it through trial and error with little or no instruction".

Well I'm pretty sure that ain't the whole story. I've been studying 6-beat kicking patterns for a
while, and it's pretty easy to tell that they are NOT all the same.

It's taken a bit of time, but here's what I think is going on. This is the kind of thing where
still photographs posted on a website would come in handy, but I don't have one. In lieu of that,
I would like to refer concisely to video files on Donald Graft's site, along with time stamps
printed on the video to be precise. But his site has been down all day - I hope it's no permanent.

So here's my main idea:

In a two-beat kicking pattern, when extending the recovering arm forward into the water, the
OPPOSITE leg has just finished it's downbeat, and therefore is deep in the water. For example,
left arm finishing its stroke (upsweep), downward kick with left leg, right arm extending foward
into the water. And Maglischo is correct that turning this pattern into a six beat is very easy to
do. You simply add two beats before the next big downbeat on the opposite side. Look at video of
Diana Munz when she's using a six-beat and this will become apparent.

But guess what? That's NOT the same timing of many of the men. For example, Ian Thorpe, Jeff
Goldblatt, and Pieter VDH. For those men, when they extend their recovering arm forward into the
water, the SAME leg is doing a downbeat. This changes the timing completely. Instead of finishing
the armstroke with a kick on the same side, the kick now comes from the other side.

The reasons for doing this seem two-fold to me. One, they get a big kick right when their
recovering hand enters the water, and this is the point of maximum decelertion during the cycle.
And two, it looks more natural for the breathing. It's not easy to kick down with the right leg at
the same time you are rotating your torso to the right to breath. Much easy to kick with the left
at that point.

THIS six beat rhythym, the pattern of Thorpe, Hackett, VDH, is NOT easy to learn. I assume they
had to spend some time learning it themselves.

Quoted message said:

If anyone out there has mastered this rhythm, I'd like to know how they did it.

Eric [/B]

Hi Eric,

I agree with your observations on the 6-beat pattern of Thorpe, Hackett VDH (and others btw)...

I believe it would help not only to consider the moment when the recovering arm extends forward in
the water, but also the moment when the hand of the recovered arm starts its downward water grabbing
phase... I believe that it is at this point that the corresponding leg starts a downward kick ...
actually, just right before the corresponding hand goes down. The rest of the two leg beats (sort
of) follow naturally, till the hand on the other arm has to start it's grabbing phase and the
associated leg has to start it's kick.

There are a number of exercices on h2oustonswims.orghome.htmlOpen ↗ under "Articles"
titled "Better Kicking" and "Bottom Up Swimming" which have been very helpful to me.

I'm interested to know whether the above exercises help...

Gert-Jan.

4precious said:

But guess what? That's NOT the same timing of many of the men. For example, Ian Thorpe, Jeff
Goldblatt, and Pieter VDH. For those men, when they extend their recovering arm forward into the
water, the SAME leg is doing a downbeat. This changes the timing completely. Instead of finishing
the armstroke with a kick on the same side, the kick now comes from the other side.

The reasons for doing this seem two-fold to me. One, they get a big kick right when their
recovering hand enters the water, and this is the point of maximum decelertion during the cycle.
And two, it looks more natural for the breathing. It's not easy to kick down with the right leg at
the same time you are rotating your torso to the right to breath. Much easy to kick with the left
at that point.

Hmmm.... I think kicking the right leg at this time helps tremendously in rotating the body and
therewith turning the head to catch a breath.

Quoted message said:

THIS six beat rhythym, the pattern of Thorpe, Hackett, VDH, is NOT easy to learn. I assume they
had to spend some time learning it themselves.

If anyone out there has mastered this rhythm, I'd like to know how they did it.

Gert-Jan <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi Eric,

I agree with your observations on the 6-beat pattern of Thorpe, Hackett VDH (and others btw)...

I believe it would help not only to consider the moment when the recovering arm extends forward in
the water, but also the moment when the hand of the recovered arm starts its downward water
grabbing phase... I believe that it is at this point that the corresponding leg starts a downward
kick ... actually, just right before the corresponding hand goes down. The rest of the two leg
beats (sort of) follow naturally, till the hand on the other arm has to start it's grabbing phase
and the associated leg has to start it's kick.

Hi Gert-Jan,

Wasn't there a great cyclist named Gert-Jan Tunnise? He was an awesome climber. Anyways, thanks for
the link, I will check it out.

I think I disagree with what you're saying. The best swimmer to study on this is probably Grant
Hackett. That's because he easily mixes his 4-beat rhythm in with his 6-beat rhythm. So they have to
fit seamlessly.

If you have some video of Hackett swimming a 1500m (and hence using his 4-beat), freeze the picture
as his right hand descends to catch. His right leg will be UP, preparing for a downbeat. If you have
video of VDH, do the same thing: I guarantee it will be difficult to tell the two men apart.

Here's a few more random points:

- it's difficult to swim like Hackett and his 4-beat. It seems unnatural to be lifting your right
leg up for a downbeat while going to catch on the right side. Some women swim with a similar
4-beat, but they all kick DOWN while their right arm descends to catch, not UP. (When I'm swimming
4-beat, I swim like the women)

- this may explain why Hackett lifts his head and upper body here. He MUST get propulsion from his
right arm downsweep because he has no kick here, and this is a "dead-spot" in the stroke cycle. So
he can't bend his wrist to point at the bottom of the pool and minimize the downward force of his
catch. He must push down forcefully to keep his momentum here, and that will naturally lift his
upper body.

- I believe this different 6-beat pattern is so prevalent on the men's side because they lope so
much more than the females. And by lope I mean swim very assymetrical - much more time on their
breathing armstroke than the non-breathing. Watch VDH - he has a "loping" kick pattern: his legs
speed up and slow down. And I can tell you exactly how he does it - after hitting the right leg
downbeat with his right are forward, he "short changes" the next left. That is to say, he cuts the
upswing real short and hits that left right away. He doesn't have time to wait because he's now on
his non-breathing side, and his arm pull is going to be much faster on that side.

Eric

Hi Eric,

Quoted message said:

Wasn't there a great cyclist named Gert-Jan Tunnise? He was an awesome climber. Anyways, thanks
for the link, I will check it out.

Yes, there is such a cyclist... Gert-Jan Theunisse... I believe he had some serious accident, is now
partly disabled and is trying to work hard on a come back...

Quoted message said:

I think I disagree with what you're saying. The best swimmer to study on this is probably Grant
Hackett. That's because he easily mixes his 4-beat rhythm in with his 6-beat rhythm. So they have
to fit seamlessly.

I'm interested to know with which part you are disagreeing.

Videos on Hackett are indeed great to study... I've downloaded a video once called
Crawl-GrantHackett1500mGoldSydney2000.mpg.mpeg (i'm assuming you must have this one as well) On the
frames at 12:41.0 his right hand and his right thigh (the right leg is up) are both starting to go
down... to me it seems the start of these movements are synchronized... On the frames at 12:41.8 and
.9 it looks to me that his left hand (and arm) goes down slightly before his left thigh comes down
(although it's arguably not very visible).... the start of both movements are almost synchronized...

svl.chCrawlAnalysisOpen ↗ shows a number of still frames with 6-beat stroke of Hackett and a
frame-by-frame analysis. Frame 3 and frame 16 are the ones you might want to have a look at...

Quoted message said:

If you have some video of Hackett swimming a 1500m (and hence using his 4-beat), freeze the
picture as his right hand descends to catch. His right leg will be UP, preparing for a downbeat.
If you have video of VDH, do the same thing: I guarantee it will be difficult to tell the two
men apart.

Hmmm... I've just studied the videos of Hackett and VDH (the video I have is
Crawl-VDH200mHeat6Sydney2000.mpg.mpeg) closely, and also believe it's difficult to tell them
apart... the difference in both swimmers seems to me that Hackett starts his leg beat almost at the
same as his arm descend, while VDH seems to start his leg beat slightly (the tiniest fraction) after
he started his arm descend. I wonder whether this is a difference in their style, or whether this is
due to the sprint character of the 200m VDH is doing.

Quoted message said:

Here's a few more random points:

- it's difficult to swim like Hackett and his 4-beat. It seems unnatural to be lifting your right
leg up for a downbeat while going to catch on the right side. Some women swim with a similar
4-beat, but they all kick DOWN while their right arm descends to catch, not UP. (When I'm
swimming 4-beat, I swim like the women)

I can swim with the 4-beat Hackett does... mind you, not his times, precision, speed,
strength *grin*

To me, synchronizing the start of the downbeat of the leg with the start of the arm's descend to
catch is the key. With a 4-beat: In the right arm's stroke, after the first right beat, a left and a
right beat follow... in the left arm's stroke, after the first left beat, no right and left beats
follow - just a glide. With a 6-beat, of course, after the first left leg beat, a right and left
beat follow...

Quoted message said:

- this may explain why Hackett lifts his head and upper body here. He MUST get propulsion from his
right arm downsweep because he has no kick here, and this is a "dead-spot" in the stroke cycle.
So he can't bend his wrist to point at the bottom of the pool and minimize the downward force of
his catch. He must push down forcefully to keep his momentum here, and that will naturally lift
his upper body.

- I believe this different 6-beat pattern is so prevalent on the men's side because they lope so
much more than the females. And by lope I mean swim very assymetrical - much more time on their
breathing armstroke than the non-breathing. Watch VDH - he has a "loping" kick pattern: his legs
speed up and slow down. And I can tell you exactly how he does it - after hitting the right leg
downbeat with his right are forward, he "short changes" the next left. That is to say, he cuts
the upswing real short and hits that left right away. He doesn't have time to wait because he's
now on his non-breathing side, and his arm pull is going to be much faster on that side.

I have never studied these videos that well... out of curiosity: to your observations or to common
knowledge: does he have a stronger left side, than right?

How about Hackett, is it not his right side which is the stronger one?

Gert-Jan.

Gert-Jan <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi Gert Jan,

I reviewed your times and videos. It appeared to be at the end of his right side pull, while I was
talking about the beginning.

Lifting the right leg on the up beat WHILE descending to catch with the right hand is a little
awkward. I'm referring to frame 4 in your link below.

svl.chCrawlAnalysisOpen ↗

I have some video of Hackett racing Thorpe which is shot from directly above. It's a
revelation to me.

By analyzing his stroke from the side in slow motion, it's very easy to get caught up in the nuances
of his kicking, body-roll, breathing, etc. All that stuff is important, but when seen from the top
in real time, one thing becomes apparent above all the rest. Sroke Rate! Hackett is 6'8" tall,
slightly larger than Thorpe, but his arms seem significantly longer than Ian's. And he uses those
arms VERY FAST. He swims nearly catch-up stroke on his left side: right arm above body, catch, and
then wooosh, under the body and out. And I mean now!

I've had some of my best swims lately keeping that mental picture of Hackett from above in my
mind's eye.

Emmitt Hines, the TI guy, talks about "bottom-up swimming". In another words, that kicking, and hip
rotation are the cornerstone of good swimming. I don't think he could be more wrong. Even for a guy
like Hackett, who does possess an effective kick, he's got those arms pin-wheeling like crazy. I
think this is especially important for recreation swimmers who usually don't kick well. So my
advice is, swim "top-down". Let the arms set tempo, the faster you want to swim, the faster the
tempo. Fit the kick you want around the arms - if you can't get the kick in, make the amplitude of
each kick less.

I can imitate Hackett's loping style a lot better if I keep that in mind.

Eric

Quoted message said:

How about Hackett, is it not his right side which is the stronger one?

This is one of the reasons Dr. Weisenthal has put forth for the prevalence of lopers. Body assist to
the weak side.

4precious said:

Emmitt Hines, the TI guy, talks about "bottom-up swimming". In another words, that kicking, and
hip rotation are the cornerstone of good swimming. I don't think he could be more wrong. Even
for a guy like Hackett, who does possess an effective kick, he's got those arms pin-wheeling
like crazy.

Here's a little something I was experimenting with the other day.

At least when it's viewed in isolation, I have an effective kick relative to my overall swimming
competence (or perhaps I should say incompetence
:-). For example, for one 67-yard lap, my fastest time is 44 sec and my
fastest kickboard time is 61 seconds (ratio 1.4).

But these are sprinting times. I've often wondered what the heck my kick is doing when I'm swimming
at moderate pace over longer distances (half-mile, mile, etc.).

The first experiment was to get a sense of how much actual propulsion my kick provided. So, I would
swim along at moderate pace, then stop my arm pulls (just holding arms out front in a streamline
position) and continue kicking -- consciously trying to maintain the kicking in exactly the same
intensity and style that I had been using before stopping the arms. The verdict is that my kick does
provide some forward propulsion, but it's *tiny*. My forward progress nearly stopped with moderate
kicking alone.

CONCLUSION #1. At moderate swimming speeds that I can maintain over any sizable distance, my kick is
largely non-propulsive.

The next experiment was to attempt to swim with as little kicking as possible. I was paying
particular attention to the "urge" to kick. I really start to notice what the kick was doing --
namely, keeping my butt and legs from sinking.

CONCLUSION #2. At moderate swimming speeds, my kick is extremely important for maintaining good
horizontal body position. (No great revelation, but is was interesting to tune into this
kicking-balance connection more consciously).

Finally, I played around with two different ways of sprinting:
(a) Rapid arm turnover, with a conscious effort to pull clean and hard; plus the minimum kick
possible (ie, balance only).
(b) Slow and easy arm pulls, with plenty of arm-gliding, and verging on not really pulling at
all; plus an all-out, continuous kick.

Both styles yielded roughly the same results: lap times in the range of 51-53 seconds. And, also
interesting, both styles seemed to exhaust me equally -- as near I could tell.

CONCLUSION #3. At sprinting speeds, my kick is quite propulsive -- almost enough to provide a
complete "vacation" for the arms.

CONCLUSION #4. To go "really fast" (which for me is a 67-yard lap in mid
40s), I have to combine the styles: pull hard; rapid arm turnover; and full-on kicking.

Sometimes I think our discussions around here fail to place enough emphasis on the distinction
between sprinting pace and distance pace. At least for one component of my swimming (the kick), this
distinction seems rather compelling.

Chief S.

I've been trying to think of an experiment to identify the benefits of kicking, and you've come
close to what I had in mind.

My first thought was to swim various distances kicking and then repeat with a float (pull buoy)
between your legs. Many mediocre swimmers report that they swim faster with a pull buoy, but I've
never seen results from better swimmers. I've never been able to keep my float while turning, so I
propose to use only open turns for both types of swims.

Since the floats provide buoyancy, any extra speed on the kicking lengths would then be attributable
to something other than raising the hips and legs
- whether kicking propulsion or initiating body roll/twist.

I've missed a lot of swimming while rebuilding my new house, but I plan to try tomorrow morning.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)