two hub overhaul questions

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Kbh
Snowed in...time to overhaul some hubs.

Cleaned out the cups/cones, replaced the bearings, regreased, etc...acheived what appears to optimal
tightness (slight play when quick release mostly open, no play when closed). So my question is -
when I spin the wheel and it comes to a rest, the valve stem always ends up at the top. Happened 3
times in a row. Is it possible that the weld in the rim (Open Pro) is heavier than the valve stem?

Second question - when I spin the wheel (its a rear), it sounds like Rice Krispies and milk! Snap,
crackle, pop! I used new bearings, cleaned everything out well, and repacked with a lot of white
lithium grease. The only thing I can think of is that I used too much grease and its gurgling around
the axle and/or dust cap.

Another rear hub today!

Thanks,

Kyle

Dear Kyle,

First, spin the wheel a dozen times.
Three times might just indicate that
you have a bright future playing
roulette.

If your rear wheel really does favor
the valve stem on top with your bearings
slightly tight (as usually recommended),
then your cone-cup combination might
have worn unevenly.

If you loosen the bearings and the valve
stem ends up on the bottom, try new cones.

Another possibility is that your gurgling
freewheel has a bit of indigestion that
happens to favor the valve stem.

Cleaning out all that grease and replacing
it with non-fat milk and Cheerios might work.

Better theories should be available from
real mechanics, who may even suggest
that it's nothing to worry about or that
a little riding will take care of the problem.

Carl Fogel

KBH said:

Snowed in...time to overhaul some hubs.

Cleaned out the cups/cones, replaced the bearings, regreased, etc...acheived what appears to
optimal tightness (slight play when quick release mostly open, no play when closed). So my
question is - when I spin the wheel and it comes to a rest, the valve stem always ends up at the
top. Happened 3 times in a row. Is it possible that the weld in the rim (Open Pro) is heavier than
the valve stem?

Yes - they often are - and that's why the valve is opposite the weld as it helps balance out the
heavy spot. On a pinned rim (welded rims are pretty pointless as the rim is under massive
compression and can never pull apart) you have a similar effect because the pin has some weight.

Quoted message said:

Second question - when I spin the wheel (its a rear), it sounds like Rice Krispies and milk! Snap,
crackle, pop! I used new bearings, cleaned everything out well, and repacked with a lot of white
lithium grease. The only thing I can think of is that I used too much grease and its gurgling
around the axle and/or dust cap.

Faint clicking isn't a problem - the balls aren't caged, there's a bit of free space in there and
uncaged balls have to spin against each other the "wrong way" (think of touching wheels in a
peloton) - so you wouldn't expect perfect silence. Too much grease will work its way out in time,
but it's worth checking one of the old balls hasn't got between the axle and hub shell. There's
sometimes enough space for this to happen.

"Zog The Undeniable" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

KBH wrote: Faint clicking isn't a problem - the balls aren't caged, there's a bit of free space in
there and uncaged balls have to spin against each other the "wrong way" (think of touching wheels
in a peloton) - so you wouldn't expect perfect silence. Too much grease will work its way out in
time, but it's worth checking one of the old balls hasn't got between the axle and hub shell.
There's sometimes enough space for this to

happen.

Also, this noise can be in the freehub, not necessarily the hub itself. There are a million
(exaggeration perhaps..) ball bearings in the free hub and it's not uncommon for it to be poorly
adjusted (they use shims to adjust the clearance) and to make some popping noises. Try spinning
without the freehub spinning (forward while pedalling or just lock the freewheel to the spokes
without the chain on with a bit of twist tie or something) and see if the noise abates or changes.
It might be the problem.

Cheers,

Scott..

Quoted message said:

Second question - when I spin the wheel (its a rear), it sounds like Rice Krispies and milk! Snap,
crackle, pop! I used new bearings, cleaned everything out well, and repacked with a lot of white
lithium grease. The only thing I can think of is that I used too much grease and its gurgling
around the axle and/or dust cap.

I have (if I am understanding you correctly) the same problem with this old 27x1¼" I ressurected for
3 over/3 under lacing. Best I can tell, it's sand or metal filings inside the hollow metal of the
rims lips.

Also, IIRC, lithium grease in a hub is a very, very bad thing. However, with any luck, this opinion
is a well-grounded as either side of the greased/ungreased tuber debate.

KBH said:

Cleaned out the cups/cones, replaced the bearings, regreased, etc...acheived what appears to
optimal tightness (slight play when quick release mostly open, no play when closed). So my
question is - when I spin the wheel and it comes to a rest, the valve stem always ends up at the
top. Happened 3 times in a row. Is it possible that the weld in the rim (Open Pro) is heavier than
the valve stem?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

Second question - when I spin the wheel (its a rear), it sounds like Rice Krispies and milk! Snap,
crackle, pop! I used new bearings, cleaned everything out well, and repacked with a lot of white
lithium grease. The only thing I can think of is that I used too much grease and its gurgling
around the axle and/or dust cap.

Assuming it is from hub not rim (loose bits in rims can make weird clicking sounds: common with
Mavics), some grit could still be in there or dust cap or seal might be slightly warped/damaged or
out-of-place and is rubbing on something (which won't necessarily be harmful). I've heard these
noises even with caged balls so it's not always balls knocking against each other.

~PB

carlfogel said:

If your rear wheel really does favor the valve stem on top with your bearings slightly tight (as
usually recommended), then your cone-cup combination might have worn unevenly.

It's usually recommended that the bearings be adjusted just slightly loose, with a trace of play, as
the clamping force of the QR results in a bit of preload being put on the bearings.

(Adam Rush) said:

Also, IIRC, lithium grease in a hub is a very, very bad thing. However, with any luck, this
opinion is a well-grounded as either side of the greased/ungreased tuber debate.

I'm not sure that greasing your tuber is an appropriate topic for this newsgroup...

Kyle BH? said:

Cleaned out the cups/cones, replaced the bearings, re-greased, etc...acheived what appears to
optimal tightness (slight play when quick release mostly open, no play when closed). So my
question is
- when I spin the wheel and it comes to a rest, the valve stem always ends up at the top.
Happened 3 times in a row. Is it possible that the weld in the rim (Open Pro) is heavier than
the valve stem?

If your bearings are properly adjusted the wheel should swing in rotation like a pendulum with
gradually degreasing amplitude. This would convince you that the rim joint is heavier than the valve
stem. If it comes to a random and more or less definite stop with the stem "near" the top, your
bearings are too tight when the QR is closed.

Quoted message said:

Second question - when I spin the wheel (its a rear), it sounds like Rice Krispies and milk! Snap,
crackle, pop! I used new bearings, cleaned everything out well, and repacked with a lot of white
lithium grease. The only thing I can think of is that I used too much grease and its gurgling
around the axle and/or dust cap.

If this is random snap crackle and pop, then there is something amiss in the bearings. Audible
clicking from the freewheel ratchet is an unfortunate artifact of current freewheels, many of which
are designing for enough strength to support the load of an 18 or 20t chainwheel with an overweight
macho-man on the pedals.

Don't use lithium greases, most of then polymerize into a hard gum with time. Plain brown automotive
wheel bearing grease works best and cleans out the best when it is time to do so. Check for broken
bearing balls for random crackles.

ricekrispies.comindex2.htmlOpen ↗

place cursor on trio for sound.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

KBH said:

Snowed in...time to overhaul some hubs.

Cleaned out the cups/cones, replaced the bearings, regreased, etc...acheived what appears to
optimal tightness (slight play when quick release mostly open, no play when closed). So my
question is - when I spin the wheel and it comes to a rest, the valve stem always ends up at the
top. Happened 3 times in a row. Is it possible that the weld in the rim (Open Pro) is heavier than
the valve stem?

Second question - when I spin the wheel (its a rear), it sounds like Rice Krispies and milk! Snap,
crackle, pop!

Is the sound coming from the hub, or the rim? Open Pros sometimes have a lot of crud in the rims
that rattles around. But it sounds like you think it's the hub, in which case it'd have to be dirt.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not _`\(,_ | certain, and as
far as they are certain, they do not refer to (_)/ (_) | reality. -- Albert Einstein

KBH said:

Snowed in...time to overhaul some hubs.

Cleaned out the cups/cones, replaced the bearings, regreased, etc...acheived what appears to
optimal tightness (slight play when quick release mostly open, no play when closed). So my
question is - when I spin the wheel and it comes to a rest, the valve stem always ends up at the
top. Happened 3 times in a row. Is it possible that the weld in the rim (Open Pro) is heavier than
the valve stem?

yes. no big deal.

Quoted message said:

Second question - when I spin the wheel (its a rear), it sounds like Rice Krispies and milk! Snap,
crackle, pop! I used new bearings, cleaned everything out well, and repacked with a lot of white
lithium grease. The only thing I can think of is that I used too much grease and its gurgling
around the axle and/or dust cap.

you don't say what type of hub - bearing quality makes a big difference to the noise they make.
assuming everything is in good shape, you can get a clicking noise depending on the preload. you
should have sufficient preload to make sure the balls roll, not slide. if they /are/ sliding,
they tend to make a clicking noise each time a ball "catches up" to its partners and starts
rolling again.

then again, if you have cheesy bearings or they're worn or your kitchen table was not quite as clean
as you'd hoped, that can contribute, but you're more likely to get rumbling rather than clicking.

grease containing lithium soap has excellent lubrication properties, just make sure it doesn't get
too ancient. if you do this kind of job every few years, you'll be fine.

jb

KBH said:

Snowed in...time to overhaul some hubs. Cleaned out the cups/cones, replaced the bearings,
regreased, etc...acheived what appears to optimal tightness (slight play when quick release mostly
open, no play when closed). So my question is - when I spin the wheel and it comes to a rest, the
valve stem always ends up at the top. Happened 3 times in a row. Is it possible that the weld in
the rim (Open Pro) is heavier than the valve stem? Second question - when I spin the wheel (its a
rear), it sounds like Rice Krispies and milk! Snap, crackle, pop! I used new bearings, cleaned
everything out well, and repacked with a lot of white lithium grease. The only thing I can think
of is that I used too much grease and its gurgling around the axle and/or dust cap. Another rear
hub today!

Yes the seam may be heavier than the valve.

Remove the wheel and the skewer from it. Turn the axle in your fingers slowly and feel for any
roughness. It may just be the balls clicking against one another if the grease is relatively light,
nothing to worry about.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Adam Rush said:

Also, IIRC, lithium grease in a hub is a very, very bad thing.

Huh?
--

David L. Johnson

__o | To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or _`\(,_ | that we are to
stand by the president right or wrong, is not (_)/ (_) | only unpatriotic and servile, but is
morally treasonable to the American public. --Theodore Roosevelt

following up...

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Kyle BH? said:

Cleaned out the cups/cones, replaced the bearings, re-greased, etc...acheived what appears to
optimal tightness (slight play when quick release mostly open, no play when closed). So my
question is
- when I spin the wheel and it comes to a rest, the valve stem always ends up at the top.
Happened 3 times in a row. Is it possible that the weld in the rim (Open Pro) is heavier than
the valve stem?

If your bearings are properly adjusted the wheel should swing in rotation like a pendulum with
gradually degreasing amplitude. This would convince you that the rim joint is heavier than the
valve stem. If it comes to a random and more or less definite stop with the stem "near" the top,
your bearings are too tight when the QR is closed.

I get a slight pendulumish action, the stem makes at least one pass by 12 o'clock before reversing
direction and finally resting at the top. Could be a smidgen too tight, but the wheel definitely
doesn't abruptly stop at one spot. I think that the hub adjusting method proposed by Park Tools
(parktool.comhowfix hub.shtmlOpen ↗, which I use) may result in a slightly
overtightened hub, because using their method the quick release only presses directly against one
locknut, as the other quick release nut is bottoming out on the axle before making contact with the
near-side locknut. Seems to me that the symmetric forces applied when teh hub is in the droputs
might tighten the bearings more than the one sided adjustment setup.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Second question - when I spin the wheel (its a rear), it sounds like

Rice

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Krispies and milk! Snap, crackle, pop! I used new bearings, cleaned everything out well, and
repacked with a lot of white lithium grease.

The

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

only thing I can think of is that I used too much grease and its

gurgling

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

around the axle and/or dust cap.

If this is random snap crackle and pop, then there is something amiss in the bearings. Audible
clicking from the freewheel ratchet is an unfortunate artifact of current freewheels, many of
which are designing for enough strength to support the load of an 18 or 20t chainwheel with an
overweight macho-man on the pedals.

Don't use lithium greases, most of then polymerize into a hard gum with time. Plain brown
automotive wheel bearing grease works best and cleans out the best when it is time to do so. Check
for broken bearing balls for random crackles.

ricekrispies.comindex2.htmlOpen ↗

place cursor on trio for sound.

I exited that web site immediately as I don't fit into the specified 4-12 age range. Listening
again, the sound is more of a crackle crackle crackle, could be bearings hit eachother. Seems to
crackle for a second before taking a very brief pause, then crackling again. If I recall, my
front did this for a while and stopped. When this snow melts in May, I'll see if that's the case
with this hub.

Thx,

Kyle

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Second question - when I spin the wheel (its a rear), it sounds like Rice Krispies and milk! Snap,
crackle, pop! I used new bearings, cleaned everything out well, and repacked with a lot of white
lithium grease. The only thing I can think of is that I used too much grease and its gurgling
around the axle and/or dust cap.

Adam Rush said:

I have (if I am understanding you correctly) the same problem with this old 27x1¼" I ressurected
for 3 over/3 under lacing. Best I can tell, it's sand or metal filings inside the hollow metal of
the rims lips.

Also, IIRC, lithium grease in a hub is a very, very bad thing. However, with any luck, this
opinion is a well-grounded as either side of the greased/ungreased tuber debate.

OK, I'll bite.

What exactly did I screw up in the tens of thousands of bearings we've filled with Lubriplate white
lithium grease over these many years?

When will we begin seeing problems? (Soon I hope- I don't have another thirty years in me)

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

KBH said:

Snowed in...time to overhaul some hubs. Cleaned out the cups/cones, replaced the bearings,
regreased,

etc...acheived

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what appears to optimal tightness (slight play when quick release mostly open, no play when
closed). So my question is - when I spin the wheel

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it comes to a rest, the valve stem always ends up at the top. Happened

3

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

times in a row. Is it possible that the weld in the rim (Open Pro) is heavier than the valve
stem? Second question - when I spin the wheel (its a rear), it sounds like

Rice

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Krispies and milk! Snap, crackle, pop! I used new bearings, cleaned everything out well, and
repacked with a lot of white lithium grease.

The

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

only thing I can think of is that I used too much grease and its

gurgling

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

around the axle and/or dust cap. Another rear hub today!

Yes the seam may be heavier than the valve.

Remove the wheel and the skewer from it. Turn the axle in your fingers slowly and feel for any
roughness. It may just be the balls clicking against one another if the grease is relatively
light, nothing to worry about.

I think that's it. I'm at the very end of a tube of Lubriplate, and the grease is getting a little
thin, kind of looks "watery".

Thanks.

Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

carlfogel said:

If your rear wheel really does favor the valve stem on top with your bearings slightly tight (as
usually recommended), then your cone-cup combination might have worn unevenly.

It's usually recommended that the bearings be adjusted just slightly loose, with a trace of play,
as the clamping force of the QR results in a bit of preload being put on the bearings.

Dear Tim,

Perhaps we're misunderstanding each other or the original poster?

I think that we agree that the final result should be a bit of preload when finally assembled,
clamped in, and ready to roll, for much the same reason as bottom brackets (the normally expected
downward force should free up the slightly tight bearings).

Your explanation is clearer, but I think that we end up in the same place.

I assume that the original poster has clamped his wheel in the frame and has a bit of preload as he
spins it. My idea is that loosening the bearing and seeing if it still stops with his valve at the
top would show whether the bearing assembly when preloaded and ready to roll is worn irregularly
enough to favor an odd position.

I don't know whether just easing the quick-release is enough to demonstrate such a problem, if that
is indeed what's hanging his valve stem at the top, but it would be easy enough to try that first
before fiddling with the cones.

Carl Fogel

Kyle BH? said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cleaned out the cups/cones, replaced the bearings, re-greased, etc...acheived what appears to
optimal tightness (slight play when quick release mostly open, no play when closed). So my
question is - when I spin the wheel and it comes to a rest, the valve stem always ends up at the
top. Happened 3 times in a row. Is it possible that the weld in the rim (Open Pro) is heavier
than the valve stem?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If your bearings are properly adjusted the wheel should swing in rotation like a pendulum with
gradually degreasing amplitude. This would convince you that the rim joint is heavier than the
valve stem. If it comes to a random and more or less definite stop with the stem "near" the top,
your bearings are too tight when the QR is closed.

Quoted message said:

I get a slight pendulumish action, the stem makes at least one pass by 12 o'clock before reversing
direction and finally resting at the top. Could be a smidgeon too tight, but the wheel definitely
doesn't abruptly stop at one spot. I think that the hub adjusting method proposed by Park Tools,

parktool.comhowfix hub.shtmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

(which I use) may result in a slightly overtightened hub, because using their method the quick
release only presses directly against one locknut, as the other quick release nut is bottoming out
on the axle before making contact with the near-side locknut. Seems to me that the symmetric
forces applied when the hub is in the dropouts might tighten the bearings more than the one sided
adjustment setup.

Their method does not compress the axle unless you tighten it as much as you would when putting in
the right way. The amount of closure force with "vertical" dropouts is optional and leaving a tiny
bit of clearance when adjusting the axle can be made to not have preload by adjusting closure force
after you try it in place.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Second question - when I spin the wheel (its a rear), it sounds like Rice Krispies and milk!
Snap, crackle, pop! I used new bearings, cleaned everything out well, and repacked with a lot of
white lithium grease. The only thing I can think of is that I used too much grease and its
gurgling around the axle and/or dust cap.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If this is random snap crackle and pop, then there is something amiss in the bearings. Audible
clicking from the freewheel ratchet is an unfortunate artifact of current freewheels, many of
which are designing for enough strength to support the load of an 18 or 20t chainwheel with an
overweight macho-man on the pedals.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't use lithium greases, most of then polymerize into a hard gum with time. Plain brown
automotive wheel bearing grease works best and cleans out the best when it is time to do so.
Check for broken bearing balls for random crackles.

ricekrispies.comindex2.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

place cursor on trio for sound.

Quoted message said:

I exited that web site immediately as I don't fit into the specified 4-12 age range.

Just to let you know that your choice of sounds has other fans.

Quoted message said:

Listening again, the sound is more of a crackle crackle crackle, could be bearings hitting each
other. Seems to crackle for a second before taking a very brief pause, then crackling again. If I
recall, my front did this for a while and stopped. When this snow melts in May, I'll see if that's
the case with this hub.

Such things don't fix themselves. The only ball clicking sounds come from dry bearings with NO lube,
where balls lolling over the top fall freely until they catch up with preceding ones, but only if
there is at least one too few in there. If you greased the bearing, then any noises from the axle
must be from debris between the balls. If it's sand, it may quiet down after the sane has been
crushed to fine grinding paste and is doing its work on the balls and races.

Fix it.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Andrew Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Second question - when I spin the wheel (its a rear), it sounds like Rice Krispies and milk!
Snap, crackle, pop! I used new bearings, cleaned everything out well, and repacked with a lot of
white lithium grease. The only thing I can think of is that I used too much grease and its
gurgling around the axle and/or dust cap.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, IIRC, lithium grease in a hub is a very, very bad thing. However, with any luck, this
opinion is a well-grounded as either side of the greased/ungreased tuber debate.

Quoted message said:

OK, I'll bite.

Quoted message said:

What exactly did I screw up in the tens of thousands of bearings we've filled with Lubriplate
white lithium grease over these many years?

If you clean and re-lubricate them regularly, you won't see it. My experience with Lubriplate is
that in my reserve wheels, that get little service, the axle turned stiffly when I wanted to use the
wheels and upon cleaning the bearings I found brown gummed Lubriplate that was hard to dissolve. The
same goes for other components that I have lying around that are no longer used. I have some
Campagnolo head bearing sets in the little plastic blue-and-clear container that are as stiff as
glue, never used. The grease also stinks of aged oxidized grease more than any I have found.

Quoted message said:

When will we begin seeing problems? (Soon I hope- I don't have another thirty years in me).

That depends on how you observe these results. Classically, Lubriplate is already hard to wash out
of a hub than other greases after a short time. This ought to be a clue. Besides, bicycles are so
dirty that their bearing lubricant needs replenishing fairly regularly. Using esoteric compounds has
no benefit, contamination having a far greater influence on performance than any grease.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, IIRC, lithium grease in a hub is a very, very bad thing. However, with any luck, this
opinion is a well-grounded as either side of the greased/ungreased tuber debate.

OK, I'll bite.

What exactly did I screw up in the tens of thousands of bearings we've filled with Lubriplate
white lithium grease over these many years?

When will we begin seeing problems? (Soon I hope- I don't have another thirty years in me)

...which is precisely why I suspected it was a groundless opinion.

I was told this by one of my bosses and a Swedish handbook on bicycle repair--they said that it gums
up too quickly when exposed to the elements. Tell me, now that the season's over and I have no
source for bearing grease, what should I be using?