two odd wheel-building techniques

[email hidden said:

"]While snuffling around the internet, I found this page,
which has links to two pictures that show what seem like
unusual wheel-building details:

http://www.spokeswagon.com/spokeswagon.nsf/show_info?OpenForm&pg=tradition

or

http://tinyurl.com/4tx6h

Click on the blue words in :

The builder adjusts spoke line and may add washers between
the spoke head and hub flange to limit movement within the
hub hole."

Then click on the blue words in:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less
likely it will "work harden" and break, a common cause of
spoke failure. Using a special punch, the builder sets the
spoke head in the hub hole to assure it is well seated and
won't move when the wheel is tensioned . . .

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what?

Carl Fogel

Washers are highly recommended by both DT and Sapim.... and I use them especially with certain spokes and/or certain spoke hub combinations. I also use the punch and other setting techniques..

Elbow length and spoke hole diameters differ and make certain combinations quite snug without washers and setting with a punch.
As an aside, DT sell a punch that has a nice end that conforms to the shape of a spoke head. They also sell spoke washers... but DT in the US only brings in the washers suitable for 14 & 15 g spokes.... even though they make them for 13 g spokes like Alpine III would used...
As another aside, Alpine III have longer head to elbow distance than DT's current Revision 2 spokes in most of the remainder of their line.

I don't think it is "snake oil" at all, but maybe I am baffled with my limited understanding and sucess over many wheels and miles.

Quoted message said:

While snuffling around the internet, I found this page,
which has links to two pictures that show what seem like
unusual wheel-building details:

http://www.spokeswagon.com/spokeswagon.nsf/show_info?OpenForm&pg=tradition

or

http://tinyurl.com/4tx6h

Click on the blue words in :

The builder adjusts spoke line and may add washers between
the spoke head and hub flange to limit movement within the
hub hole."

Then click on the blue words in:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less
likely it will "work harden" and break, a common cause of
spoke failure. Using a special punch, the builder sets the
spoke head in the hub hole to assure it is well seated and
won't move when the wheel is tensioned . . .

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what?

The punch is snake oil, and can actually damage the flange
if over done.

There is some utility to spoke head washers, but only in
certain circumstances, and not in the way the web page
suggests. If the flange is unusually thin, or the bent
portion of the spoke unusually long, a washer (or two) can
pull the elbow in closer to the flange, supporting the elbow
more evenly. Also, if the spoke holes are unusually large,
a washer (or two) can fill in some space, to support the
head a bit more evenly. For a flange/hole/spoke combination
that is well matched (for example, current Shimano or
Campagnolo hubs and DT spokes), there is no need to use washers.

A few years ago, DT increased the elbow length on their
spokes. To seat the elbow against the flange well, many
wheel builders resorted to using spoke head washers. After
many complaints from their customers, DT went back to an
elbow length very close to their previous length, and spoke
head washers have generally not been required for recently
produced spokes. (Unfortunately, there are probably some of
the old long-elbow stock still floating around.)

The idea that spokes "work harden and break" in use is a
common misconception by those who do not understand metal
fatigue. It is unfortunately common that the mechanisms of
wheel failure are not understood by wheelbuilding "experts".
Take for example this other nugget of wisdom in the web page:

"Machines also do a poor job at sufficiently 'stress
relieving' the wheel to remove spoke wind up."

Mark McMaster
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less
likely it will "work harden" and break, a common cause of
spoke failure. Using a special punch, the builder sets the
spoke head in the hub hole to assure it is well seated and
won't move when the wheel is tensioned . . .

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what?

Unless there is a gross mis-match in the diameters of the holes in the
hubshell and the spokes inserted therein, such measures are described
by

"To gild refined gold, to paint the lily,
To throw a perfume on the violet,
To smooth the ice, or add another hue
Unto the rainbow, or with taper-light
To seek the beauteous eye of heaven to garnish,
Is wasteful and ridiculous excess."

King John. Act iv. Sc. 2.
Edward de Vere

-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
http://www.businesscycles.com
Since 1983
Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
-------------------------------

John Dacey said:

Quoted message said:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less
likely it will "work harden" and break, a common cause of
spoke failure. Using a special punch, the builder sets the
spoke head in the hub hole to assure it is well seated and
won't move when the wheel is tensioned . . .

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what?

Unless there is a gross mis-match in the diameters of the holes in the
hubshell and the spokes inserted therein, such measures are described
by

"To gild refined gold, to paint the lily,
To throw a perfume on the violet,
To smooth the ice, or add another hue
Unto the rainbow, or with taper-light
To seek the beauteous eye of heaven to garnish,
Is wasteful and ridiculous excess."

King John. Act iv. Sc. 2.
Edward de Vere

-------------------------------
John Dacey

Dear Eddie,

Nonsense--anyone can see that you're actually Izaak Walton.

George B. Shaw

Carl Fogel said:

While snuffling around the internet, I found this page, which has
links to two pictures that show what seem like unusual
wheel-building details:

Quoted message said:

http://tinyurl.com/4tx6h

Quoted message said:

Click on the blue words in :

Quoted message said:

"The builder adjusts spoke line and may add washers between the
spoke head and hub flange to limit movement within the hub hole."

That may sound good but spoke elbows don't move once the spoke is
tensioned. The only effective change washers makes is that of a
shorter elbow or a thicker flange. The reason we saw, and maybe still
see, spokes with too long an elbow is that machine lacing is difficult
with spokes with ideal length elbow and flanges with ideal size spoke
holes, both of which are scarce these days, the biggest consumers of
these products are machine built wheels they request these poor fits.

Quoted message said:

Then click on the blue words in:

Quoted message said:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less likely it
will "work harden" and break, a common cause of spoke failure. Using
a special punch, the builder sets the spoke head in the hub hole to
assure it is well seated and won't move when the wheel is
tensioned...

Well that's bogus. Spoke will not work harden in use although they
may fail from fatigue. I think it's old mechanics jargon and myth and
lore from the days when fatigue failures were routinely attributed to
"look the axle crystallized and broke here" when in fact a fatigue
failure always exposes the crystal structure because it is inter-grain
boundaries that fail most easily in a metal.

Quoted message said:

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building techniques,
snake-oil, or what?

As I said, they are a crutch for long elbow spokes or too thin a
flange.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel said:

While snuffling around the internet, I found this page, which has
links to two pictures that show what seem like unusual
wheel-building details:

Quoted message said:

http://tinyurl.com/4tx6h

Quoted message said:

Click on the blue words in :

Quoted message said:

"The builder adjusts spoke line and may add washers between the
spoke head and hub flange to limit movement within the hub hole."

That may sound good but spoke elbows don't move once the spoke is
tensioned.

sorry, that's not true. the fact that spokes fatigue at this point is
proof. spokes my not move in a readily visible way, just as a fatigued
crank spindle may not "move" in a readily visible way, but the very
existance of fatigue is as good an evidence of "movement" as you'll ever
get.

Quoted message said:

The only effective change washers makes is that of a
shorter elbow or a thicker flange. The reason we saw, and maybe still
see, spokes with too long an elbow is that machine lacing is difficult
with spokes with ideal length elbow and flanges with ideal size spoke
holes, both of which are scarce these days, the biggest consumers of
these products are machine built wheels they request these poor fits.

Quoted message said:

Then click on the blue words in:

Quoted message said:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less likely it
will "work harden" and break, a common cause of spoke failure. Using
a special punch, the builder sets the spoke head in the hub hole to
assure it is well seated and won't move when the wheel is
tensioned...

Well that's bogus. Spoke will not work harden in use although they
may fail from fatigue. I think it's old mechanics jargon and myth and
lore from the days when fatigue failures were routinely attributed to
"look the axle crystallized and broke here" when in fact a fatigue
failure always exposes the crystal structure because it is inter-grain
boundaries that fail most easily in a metal.

Quoted message said:

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building techniques,
snake-oil, or what?

As I said, they are a crutch for long elbow spokes or too thin a
flange.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Mark McMaster wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The idea that spokes "work harden and break" in use is a
common misconception by those who do not understand metal
fatigue. It is unfortunately common that the mechanisms of
wheel failure are not understood by wheelbuilding "experts".
Take for example this other nugget of wisdom in the web page:

Please explain how a spoke subjected to a rocking motion eventually fails
due to fatigue, preferably in ten words.

Trevor

[email hidden said:

"]While snuffling around the internet, I found this page,
which has links to two pictures that show what seem like
unusual wheel-building details:

http://www.spokeswagon.com/spokeswagon.nsf/show_info?OpenForm&pg=tradition

or

http://tinyurl.com/4tx6h

Click on the blue words in :

The builder adjusts spoke line and may add washers between
the spoke head and hub flange to limit movement within the
hub hole."

Then click on the blue words in:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less
likely it will "work harden" and break, a common cause of
spoke failure. Using a special punch, the builder sets the
spoke head in the hub hole to assure it is well seated and
won't move when the wheel is tensioned . . .

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what?

Carl Fogel

"Why do spokes break?

Spokes always break as the result of an irregularity in the wheel spider.

Cause 1

Play between the hub and the spoke. Each spoke is subjected to one load cycle (loading/unloading) during each complete rotation of the wheel.

Each spoke in a bicycle wheel that has been ridden over 2000 km, for example, has experienced one million load changes.

If there is even the slightest play between the spoke and the hub flange, a broken spoke is just a question of time. The spoke continually jerks back and forth in the flange, which subjects the spoke elbow to massive stress. This causes the material to become brittle, the spoke can no longer bear the load and breaks at the elbow.

Remedy

Place washers underneath the head of any spoke where play is felt at the hub flange. "

Above quoted from the FAQ section of DT Swiss

"Hub hole suitability Hold the hub flange horizontally. Put the spoke, with the head inside, a little higher. While centring, you should push on the hub lightly; the spokes will easily adjust themselves. (Attention: do not push so hard that the spokes bend!).
Using oversized hub holes is an easy solution. However, this will cause a lot of play and is not recommended.

Consider the use of spoke washers

Too much tension on the spoke head will also cause problems.
Ideal hub hole Ø equals spoke thread Ø + 0.1 mm (eg. spoke thread on 14G/2 mm measures thread 2.25 mm + 0.1 = 2.35 mm: max. hole Ø 2.50 mm)."

Above quoted from the "checklist" section of Sapim's site.

The thickness (from 2.0 to 4.0 mm on samples I have measured) of the flange and spoke hole size help in determining the use of spoke head washers. Also, there are at least 3 different spoke head to elbow dimension on DT spokes varying at least .85 mm from shortest to longest. Since, there are these differences and differences in hub flange thicknesses and spoke hole diameters as well as spoke diameters at the hub end; you must make some accomodation for these differences.
I will disagree with Jobst's statement that once a spoke is tensioned it's elbow doesn't move.
I move them by laterally,torsionally, and radially loading the wheel.
I minimize the movement by spoke alignment and proper tensioning.
I also use spoke head washers and setting techniques to minimize the movement.
And to Mark's comment on " The punch is snake oil, and can actually damage the flange if over done."
.... yes you could do damage to the flange if it is ovedone, but I don't think we are talking about holding the hub in a vise or on an anvil while hitting the puch with a metal hammer. I give the spoke heads a solid strike with a properly aligned puch fron the blow of a plastic headed hammer.

I have yet to find a hub with too small a hole to fit the roll threaded end (2.25 mm) of a 14 g spoke through.
I have yet to find a hub where the flange is too thick.... even the 4.0 mm ones from Phil Wood.

I still don't think there is snake oil or even linseed oil involved here.

[email hidden] wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

The builder adjusts spoke line and may add washers between
the spoke head and hub flange to limit movement within the
hub hole."

Then click on the blue words in:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less
likely it will "work harden" and break, a common cause of
spoke failure. Using a special punch, the builder sets the
spoke head in the hub hole to assure it is well seated and
won't move when the wheel is tensioned . . .

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what?

I've heard of this being used for spokes with a poorly formed, large
radius, elbow. The best spokes (like DT) lie very close to the flange
anyway.

[email hidden] wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Well that's bogus. Spoke will not work harden in use although they
may fail from fatigue. I think it's old mechanics jargon and myth and
lore from the days when fatigue failures were routinely attributed to
"look the axle crystallized and broke here" when in fact a fatigue
failure always exposes the crystal structure because it is inter-grain
boundaries that fail most easily in a metal.

The use of the two words 'work harden' are a perfectly acceptable way in
which to describe what happens to a spoke which has been bent back and forth
a few million times so it is brittle. Then it snaps. The dislocations can
be seen with 20x magnification most usually on the outside of the fracture
but sometimes upon the inside also, dependent on setting, which show that
bending moments existed before fracture.

To describe everything which you may feel could undermine your theory as
myth and lore is most immature. It is not necessary to complicate an issue
where two words adequately describe the condition unless thou wishes to
confuse the less knowledgeable.

Trevor

daveornee wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

While snuffling around the internet, I found this page,
which has links to two pictures that show what seem like
unusual wheel-building details:

http://tinyurl.com/4tx6h

or

http://tinyurl.com/4tx6h

Click on the blue words in :

The builder adjusts spoke line and may add washers between
the spoke head and hub flange to limit movement within the
hub hole."

Then click on the blue words in:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less
likely it will "work harden" and break, a common cause of
spoke failure. Using a special punch, the builder sets the
spoke head in the hub hole to assure it is well seated and
won't move when the wheel is tensioned . . .

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what?

Carl Fogel

"Why do spokes break?

Spokes always break as the result of an irregularity in the wheel
spider.

Cause 1

Play between the hub and the spoke. Each spoke is subjected to one load
cycle (loading/unloading) during each complete rotation of the wheel.

Each spoke in a bicycle wheel that has been ridden over 2000 km, for
example, has experienced one million load changes.

If there is even the slightest play between the spoke and the hub
flange, a broken spoke is just a question of time. The spoke
continually jerks back and forth in the flange, which subjects the
spoke elbow to massive stress. This causes the material to become
brittle, the spoke can no longer bear the load and breaks at the elbow.

Remedy

Place washers underneath the head of any spoke where play is felt at
the hub flange. "

Above quoted from the FAQ section of DT Swiss

"Hub hole suitability Hold the hub flange horizontally. Put the spoke,
with the head inside, a little higher. While centring, you should push
on the hub lightly; the spokes will easily adjust themselves.
(Attention: do not push so hard that the spokes bend!).
Using oversized hub holes is an easy solution. However, this will cause
a lot of play and is not recommended.

Consider the use of spoke washers

Too much tension on the spoke head will also cause problems.
Ideal hub hole Ø equals spoke thread Ø + 0.1 mm (eg. spoke thread on
14G/2 mm measures thread 2.25 mm + 0.1 = 2.35 mm: max. hole Ø 2.50
mm)."

Above quoted from the "checklist" section of Sapim's site.

The thickness (from 2.0 to 4.0 mm on samples I have measured) of the
flange and spoke hole size help in determining the use of spoke head
washers. Also, there are at least 3 different spoke head to elbow
dimension on DT spokes varying at least .85 mm from shortest to
longest. Since, there are these differences and differences in hub
flange thicknesses and spoke hole diameters as well as spoke diameters
at the hub end; you must make some accomodation for these differences.
I will disagree with Jobst's statement that once a spoke is tensioned
it's elbow doesn't move.
I move them by laterally,torsionally, and radially loading the wheel.
I minimize the movement by spoke alignment and proper tensioning.
I also use spoke head washers and setting techniques to minimize the
movement.
And to Mark's comment on " The punch is snake oil, and can actually
damage the flange if over done."
... yes you could do damage to the flange if it is ovedone, but I
don't think we are talking about holding the hub in a vise or on an
anvil while hitting the puch with a metal hammer. I give the spoke
heads a solid strike with a properly aligned puch fron the blow of a
plastic headed hammer.

I have yet to find a hub with too small a hole to fit the roll threaded
end (2.25 mm) of a 14 g spoke through.
I have yet to find a hub where the flange is too thick.... even the 4.0
mm ones from Phil Wood.

I still don't think there is snake oil or even linseed oil involved
here.

I have not found it necessary to use setting tools other than my fingers,
bending the outbond spokes back against the hub. Your other remarks I agree
with.

Trevor

Trevor Jeffrey said:

Mark McMaster wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The idea that spokes "work harden and break" in use is a
common misconception by those who do not understand metal
fatigue. It is unfortunately common that the mechanisms of
wheel failure are not understood by wheelbuilding "experts".
Take for example this other nugget of wisdom in the web page:

Please explain how a spoke subjected to a rocking motion eventually fails
due to fatigue, preferably in ten words.

What rocking motion are you referring to? Spokes in a properly
tensioned wheel do not rock. Another straw man.

I suppose this goes back to the example you raised of
bending a paper clip until it breaks. Although that example
is often used it is not applicable to bicycle spokes. The
paper clip example involves repeated bending the spoke
plastically, well beyond its yield point (low cycle post
yield fatigue). That does not happen to spokes in a wheel,
which maintain an average stress well below their yield.

So, I guess we can add metal fatigue to the ever growing
list of mechanical concepts you don't understand. You
really should quit while you're behind.

Mark McMaster
[email hidden]

carl-<< Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what? >><BR><BR>

Not at all. Washers are an important tool when the hub flange holes are BIG,
like in first gen Powertap. And any wheelbuilder worth their salt ensures the
spoke head is flush, using a small punch.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:31:29 -0600, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

John Dacey said:

Quoted message said:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less
likely it will "work harden" and break, a common cause of
spoke failure. Using a special punch, the builder sets the
spoke head in the hub hole to assure it is well seated and
won't move when the wheel is tensioned . . .

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what?

Unless there is a gross mis-match in the diameters of the holes in the
hubshell and the spokes inserted therein, such measures are described
by

"To gild refined gold, to paint the lily,
To throw a perfume on the violet,
To smooth the ice, or add another hue
Unto the rainbow, or with taper-light
To seek the beauteous eye of heaven to garnish,
Is wasteful and ridiculous excess."

King John. Act iv. Sc. 2.
Edward de Vere

-------------------------------
John Dacey

Dear Eddie,

Nonsense--anyone can see that you're actually Izaak Walton.

George B. Shaw

[This private email reply ensued . . .]

Sorry, you have me confused with the fella that wrote the
seventeenth century treatise on pedalling techniques, "The
Compleat Ankler".

Oxford

[. . . so I replied as follows . . .]

Dear John,

If you don't post this pun, I will.

Threateningly,

Carl Fogel

[ . . . and received this defiant anfwer . . .]

Do your worft, fir.

-------------------------------
John Dacey
Bufiness Cycles, Miami, Florida
http://www.businesscycles.com
Since 1983
Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
-------------------------------

On 22 Aug 2004 13:41:12 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo ) said:

carl-<< Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what? >><BR><BR>

Not at all. Washers are an important tool when the hub flange holes are BIG,
like in first gen Powertap. And any wheelbuilder worth their salt ensures the
spoke head is flush, using a small punch.

Can you say more about this punch thing? It's new to me. First, what
exactly is being done? Is the spoke head reshaped? Are you seating the
bottom (flange) side of the spoke as the limit, or is the spoke head
sitting flush the limit? Maybe they are one and the same- flush outer
head and seated back side of head? Does this whole operation depend on
the hub being used- it's spoke hole size and shaping?

Second, what is accomplished by this punching in terms of spoke life
or wheel strength, life, whatever?

I don't mean to set off another engineering discussion on the
newsgroup, although it may happen. I ask because I know that you have
built lots of wheels and have a good reputation for actual wheel
building. And as I said, this punching thing is new to me.

Then again given some of the recent wheel discussions here, you are
joking about using a punch and I missed the reference....

Dan Daniel said:

Can you say more about this punch thing? It's new to me. First, what
exactly is being done?

Some wheel builders use this tool to get the spoke head flush with the
hub flange. Being an armature wheel builder I've never seen the need of
using one, but since reading this thread I think I will.

http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/110/gfx/large/3420ac1l.gif

Kenny Lee

Dan Daniel said:

Can you say more about this punch thing? It's new to me. First, what
exactly is being done?

To clarify- I do know what a punch is, and I know how to use one. What
I mean is that the use of a punch in wheelbuilding is new to me....

Kenny Lee said:

Dan Daniel said:

Can you say more about this punch thing? It's new to me. First, what
exactly is being done?

Some wheel builders use this tool to get the spoke head flush with the
hub flange. Being an armature wheel builder I've never seen the need of
using one, but since reading this thread I think I will.

What in this thread has convinced you?

Quoted message said:

http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/110/gfx/large/3420ac1l.gif

Ok, thanks.... I do know what a punch is and how they are used in
general 🙂

Trevor Jeffrey said:

[email hidden] wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Well that's bogus. Spoke will not work harden in use although they
may fail from fatigue. I think it's old mechanics jargon and myth and
lore from the days when fatigue failures were routinely attributed to
"look the axle crystallized and broke here" when in fact a fatigue
failure always exposes the crystal structure because it is inter-grain
boundaries that fail most easily in a metal.

The use of the two words 'work harden' are a perfectly acceptable way in
which to describe what happens to a spoke which has been bent back and forth
a few million times so it is brittle. Then it snaps. The dislocations can
be seen with 20x magnification most usually on the outside of the fracture
but sometimes upon the inside also, dependent on setting, which show that
bending moments existed before fracture.

Work hardening: An increase in hardness and yield strength that is due
to plastic deformation.

Spokes do not get "bent back and forth" beyond yield during the normal
use of a wheel, and if they did they would typically fail somewhere
between 10 and 100 cycles, not a few million cycles.

Using the term "work hardening" as a synonym for "fatigue" is not
acceptable usage, and does not help your credibility.
--
Tom Sherman