Two TDF being contested?

The problem at the moment is no one has any confidence in the tests, sure they catch some people but they don't catch enough for people to believe they are valid. Based on the assumption that lots of people dope then the tests are [censored].

Simple solution to this, make the pro tour teams pay lots of money to help fund the drug tests to improve them. If everyone pays money to the doping authorities then no one can be accussed of trying to "buy them off" and you get better tests.

alibat said:

Lets just say for the sake of arguement that LA is doping (and at this moment in time I'm still on the fence about this). Let's just imagine that shortly after this years tour it was proved beyond doubt that he had cheated. What do you think would happen? The news could destroy the sport after all the hype about LA and his comeback from cancer. Do you think it would be kept quiet? I would be interested in peoples opinions about this.

Oh, there would be plenty of people who would risk the future of the sport for the chance to bring down Lance Armstrong. Like any high-profile public figure, he has been the target for quick-money schemes by a few people who can claim some association with him, but fortunately, most of these people are too stupid to concoct a story with any credibility. I especially liked the recent one from Dave Anderson, who, after failing in his attempt to extort $500,000 from Armsrong, suddenly remembers "cleaning Armstrong's bathroom" and finding a vial of some drug with a sinister label that looked "something like Androstenin". 🙄 Of course, he can't prove anything . . . but what's proof got to do with a quick extortion scheme?

Certainly there is doping, and I'm guessing there are those who dope who manage to evade detection for periods of time. But to say that everyone in the sport is complicit in the doping of all the athletes, or that specific teams (one in particular) have been doping for a decade and everyone has managed to evade detection despite the closest scrutiny from their competitors, the authorities and the countless scumbags who would love to try to make a dollar/Euro by breaking the news . . . . it just doesn't compute. If and when anyone can prove Armstrong was juiced at any time during his tenure, it'll be on the news wires faster than Flyer can type "tous dope".

DV1976 said:

I would say doping is alive and well in procycling in 2005. I can't believe that someone who is 1.91m tall could win that particular stage. I said it earlier. I am not an expert. But this just doesn't make sense. There were good climbers in that breakaway and he blew them away. I don't want to start an argument. I respect everybody's point of view but to me what I saw yesterday was scandalous...

I could have sworn it was weight not height that had the biggest affect. A guy who diets and does exclusive mountain training from late April until the Tour, someone who has shown good climbing skills in the past following wheels in the mountains until the last 50 meters doesn't make sense???? Uh, yeah, ok.🙄

Coming to take you away??

Doping apology not accepted.

Glad you're enjoying the rants of the dopers now!

Cheers to secret sauces!

rejobako said:

The article actually refutes your little theory. A few days ago you were smug in your opinion that no one in cycling would dare blow the whistle on anyone else for fear of losing their own livelihood. Now, suddenly, they're apparently willing to do so because . . . the same people that have been beating their asses in the TdF for almost a decade are still doing it? LOL. What a revelation.

Consider the alternative, you obsessive little weasel: some has-beens who can't hang with the big-dogs are lashing out in frustration. Seems logical, which is precisely why you can't grasp it.

Now go crawl back in your hole, because the black helicopters are beginning to circle. :eek:

Maybe they can catch these guys in the tests, but they don´t do this because it would eliminate 99% of the cyclists...

Frigo´s wife was caught with the drugs but he was not caught in the anti doping...

rejobako said:

Oh, there would be plenty of people who would risk the future of the sport for the chance to bring down Lance Armstrong. Like any high-profile public figure, he has been the target for quick-money schemes by a few people who can claim some association with him, but fortunately, most of these people are too stupid to concoct a story with any credibility. I especially liked the recent one from Dave Anderson, who, after failing in his attempt to extort $500,000 from Armsrong, suddenly remembers "cleaning Armstrong's bathroom" and finding a vial of some drug with a sinister label that looked "something like Androstenin". 🙄 Of course, he can't prove anything . . . but what's proof got to do with a quick extortion scheme?

[snip].

Obviously you are not aware of the facts. There was no "extortion" (meaning drug taking revelations) in the original documents filed by Anderson.

The revelations came from Anderson's second or third deposition provided at the request of the judge. The judge wanted more information/detail. I suspect about the timing and breakdown of the relationship between Anderson & LA. The timing coincided with the discovery of the drugs by Anderson.

Armstrong had provided Anderson an offer to settle with a sting in its tail. Automatic liquidated damages of a huge sum if Anderson mentioned anything about LA, damaging or complimentary. LA had something serious to hide.

mocka58 said:

I think the French are just grasping at straws trying to explain their lack of success in recent years. McGee and Cooke com out of the AIS track team so their credibility is not good.

If you are using Flyer as your credible source on this opinion I suggest your read all his anti AIS posts where he has been discredited.

Quoted post said:

I don't know anything about French cycling but there could be a variety of reasons why they can't produce great champions anymore. The fact that they only have two races of note says a lot to me.

I believe this link to be the original source of the ABC report http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/050714/3/capf.html

Quoted post said:

Australia just lost a Davis Cup tennis semi-final to Argentina. There are plenty of recriminations flying around as to why a country that once produced the best players in the world now only has one player of note and world class. No-one has suggested that Argentina and Spain and other leading tennis nations are doping up their players. It's just that the sport is more popular in those countries and attracts a lot of youngsters and money to train them. It seems that French cycling may not be as well promoted and supported as it once was.

The concerns about doping in tennis related mainly to women who were bulking up to play the man's style power game. High level ranking in the man's game is dependent upon excellence of motor skills and hand/eye coordination not sustainable power output.

Quoted post said:

The idea that French cyclists are clean whilst the rest of the world dopes is ludicrous. I'm sure they are up to it as much as anyone from anywhere else.

I recall a comment by Paul Sherwin during the early Lance years of TdF domination when the Tour was approaching Paris. He said with words to the effect:

"It is noticeable that the clamping down on drugs in France has had an effect on French riders in this Tour. For the first time a French rider has not won a stage and a French rider holds the "Lantern Rouge" ("red light" for last place)."

read about horse hormones,syringes and the performance evaluation programs in:

Robert Anderson's AIS doping report:

www.dcita.gov.au/?a=16787

See if you can't find any illegal doping in this report or why David French (Mark's father) says the AIS turns a blind eye to doping.

It's all there for you to read.

Flyer said:

read about horse hormones,syringes and the performance evaluation programs in:

Robert Anderson's AIS doping report:

www.dcita.gov.au/?a=16787

See if you can't find any illegal doping in this report or why David French (Mark's father) says the AIS turns a blind eye to doping.

It's all there for you to read.

The Anderson Report is the "evidence" from Flyer to support his allegations. He initially referred to it as "damning". On this claim he stood very much alone and failed to provide sustainable references or support from other commentators.

As an indication of Flyer's state of mind, he then claimed the Report was "preordained" which would suggest to any reader the contents could be construed as being a pre-arranged whitewash. Flyer's change of position was the antithesis to his first "damning" position.

But, wait there is more. Flyer altered his position again another 180 degrees and changed his position back to "damning". We have been waiting patiently for him to back up this change. I suspect Flyer's "Google" has been getting a good workout.

Did you pick up those spent syringes yet? One puncture will [censored] your pursuit time.

Horse hormones aside:

1) Robert Anderson's report is damning is many ways
a) he embarrasses management, Barras, Flynn and Dr. Barnes too (lack of supervison)
b) he portrays Mark French as both a liar and a doper
c) he points out a system in confict: Performance grading and ant-dope policy seem at odds
d) he points out that the Police were called 4 months after a crime was committed!

2) He lists EquiGen and TestComp as illegal drugs

3) Quote David French as claiming "the AIS turns a blind eye to doping"

4) In conclusion he then---he ordains the entire mess clean!!! ---letting Dajka & French swing in the wind!

Oh it's damning and sad--all at the same time.

You must be so proud of your hormones, syringes and retired judges.

No wonder LA gets away with it---everbody does!

Flyer said:

Horse hormones aside:

1) Robert Anderson's report is damning is many ways
a) he embarrasses management, Barras, Flynn and Dr. Barnes too (lack of supervison)

Not in the Anderson report. You are drawing your own opinion.

Quoted post said:

b) he portrays Mark French as both a liar and a doper

Not in his terms of reference nor mentioned in the Report. The inquiry giving rise to the Report was conducted and reported after Mark French's CAS Hearing. Note the date of the Report, Flyer, 27 October 2004. French's Hearing and sanction occurred in June 2004.

Quoted post said:

c) he points out a system in confict: Performance grading and ant-dope policy seem at odds

This is another Flyerism. I cannot see any reference to this claim in the Report nor wonder why this comparison would be raised.

Quoted post said:

d) he points out that the Police were called 4 months after a crime was committed!

And goes into detail in Paras 99 and 100. His conclusion, nothing sinister, that the investigators initially treated it as a drugs in sport issue not a criminal matter. However, flyer sees it as sinister.

Quoted post said:

2) He lists EquiGen and TestComp as illegal drugs

Correct. However, he was relying on an opinion of Dr Barnes that Testicomp contained illegal PED substances as disclosed on the label. French's successful appeal was based upon that label disclosure being incorrect as independently lab tested.

Quoted post said:

3) Quote David French as claiming "the AIS turns a blind eye to doping"

Report date again Flyer. French had been found to have breached the anti doping rules by CAS hearing in June 2004. French's father claimed after the Hearing award was made against his son that the AIS had a duty of care to ensure his son should not have been in a position to breach anti doping rules. This was based upon his son being found to have been in breach and not from any other claim.

Quoted post said:

4) In conclusion he then---he ordains the entire mess clean!!! ---letting Dajka & French swing in the wind!

Was not in the terms of reference to form that opinion nor did he form that opinion. Flyer, why don't you read and digest the terms of reference. It was not for Anderson to report on matters other than Terms of Reference 4 and 5 which are:

4. The adequacy of management and supervision of athletes at Australian
Institute of Sport Del Monte during 2003 in respect of detection and
prevention of doping offences.

5. The appropriateness and effectiveness of steps taken by the Australian
Sports Commission, Cycling Australia or any other relevant organisation
following the discovery on 2 December 2003 at Australian Institute of Sport
Del Monte of materials indicating that possible doping offences may have
been committed.

Flyer, can you explain how his report could have altered the outcome for French given Anderson's terms of reference? Dajka was not at issue here.

Bradley McGee & Baden Cooke bad cyclists???

Hmmmmm??

Me thinks their drugs might not be the same--but they can race with anyone anytime--except when fraud, doping and horse hormones get in the way.

musette said:

Didier Rous: "One minute we're able to keep up with the best, then all of a sudden we're not. I can't hold my hands up and say what's going on at other teams. I've got no proof."

In short the argument made by these people are: We suck relative to the best in the peloton. Our best GC person is terrible. We used to be better relatively. Therefore, other people must be cheating.

Conclusion: No go. You might just be bad cyclists. 😄

Excuse my ignorance, but who is this Mark French we talk about? :o

i think all the top contenders are doping. they have to. it's just like america's football and baseball leagues. drugs get results get success get money--and everyone wants to be a winner. it comes down to this: if one guy does it he will win, so everyone else has to do it, too, just to compete.

i wish it wasn't so.

if you read my posts you'll gather i'm a jan fan, but i think he's doping, too. same with basso and lance.

here's hoping that i'm wrong...🙁

From cyclingnews.com this morning:

New "explosive" EPO driving TdF speed? UCI doc doubts it

Could a new anemia drug called Cera from Swiss pharmaceutical giant Roche could be replacing EPO in the peloton? Recently, Roche announced that an extension of a continued Phase II trial, which was a year-long study of 61 patients, showed Cera could be used in one dose every four weeks to control hemoglobin levels in patients undergoing dialysis. Hemoglobin is the protein that binds with oxygen in red blood cells. Cera works by stimulating red blood cell production, which is lower than normal in anemia sufferers. Francaise des Jeux team doctor Gerard Guillame gave an interview to Le Figaro where he talked about a new type of "explosive" EPO that passes through the system in only 24 hours.

Some new drug may be an easy answer for the reason for the record speed of this year's Tour de France, but Dr. Mario Zorzoli of the UCI is skeptical. "I wouldn't say that there's anything to suspect in this year's Tour", Zorzoli told Italian sports newspaper La Gazetta dello Sport. "It's actually the contrary. It's not that the riders [blood] parameters are at the limits; we've seen a general lowering of the values of many values, like haemoglobin, and haematocrit."

Regarding the supposed existence of a new, explosive EPO and the UCI doctor said "We've heard of EPO of human origin, but that's nothing new. There's a new protein called Cera that attaches to the receptors of EPO and has the same effect. It's not on the [pharmaceutical] market yet and it's not on the banned list yet, but in any case, we have the means to detect [it]. We've even tested for it, but have not found any."

Zorzoli concluded by debunking the idea of a new "explosive" EPO that passes through the system in 24 hours, saying "any kind of EPO, no matter how fast it passes through the system, changes other blood parameters. So it's detectable."

mr tibbs said:

i think all the top contenders are doping. they have to. it's just like america's football and baseball leagues. drugs get results get success get money--and everyone wants to be a winner. it comes down to this: if one guy does it he will win, so everyone else has to do it, too, just to compete.

i wish it wasn't so.

if you read my posts you'll gather i'm a jan fan, but i think he's doping, too. same with basso and lance.

here's hoping that i'm wrong...🙁

wolfix said:

The flaw in L.A Confidential is suggesting that Armstrong was just a normal male, when that is not correct. He was blowing away tri-athletes at an age of 16. And tri-athletes are every bit as fit as TDF riders and maybe better TT cyclists then most TDF riders. And no one is ever going to convince me Armstrong was being provided secret , undetectable dope at the age of 16.
This year is fast because it is in the best interests of Discovery to keep it fast aided by a tailwind. The proof that it has been kept fast by Discovery is that Discovery is riding at the edge of it's limit. That is why the climbing goats have not been able to climb. And Discovery has ben hammering at the front for most of the time. And I may be wrong, but does this TDF have fewer climbs ????
The link to L.A Confidential adds nothing. The part of that link where Lemonds wife goes public because Greg cannot because of his Trek sponsorship makes me take a whole new look at the Greg Lemond legacy. Plus , the fans in cycling must remember that Greg is fighting for his stake of the goosdies of the US market. Greg would have a huge financial windfall if LA tested positive. And part of Greg;s European legacy is "It's about the money." He knows what is going to happen when Trek launches the "LANCE" line of mid-price range cycling products. Lance is a household name where most people are not familiar with Greg.

The best of the best triathletes time trial in the early 40 kph's. The worst of the TdeF cyclist TT at just under 50.

VeloFlash said:

Obviously you are not aware of the facts. There was no "extortion" (meaning drug taking revelations) in the original documents filed by Anderson.

The revelations came from Anderson's second or third deposition provided at the request of the judge. The judge wanted more information/detail. I suspect about the timing and breakdown of the relationship between Anderson & LA. The timing coincided with the discovery of the drugs by Anderson.

Armstrong had provided Anderson an offer to settle with a sting in its tail. Automatic liquidated damages of a huge sum if Anderson mentioned anything about LA, damaging or complimentary. LA had something serious to hide.

Armstrong sued him. Anderson counterclaimed and had no leg to stand on, so they concocted this business about "androstenin" and tried to make a quick buck by extorting $500,000. Armstrong told him to shove it.

In the meantime, if Armstrong offered a monetary sum to settle, I am unaware of it; I'd appreciate a link to that, if you please, because it is typically an ethical violation for a party to provide details of settlement negotiations in pending litigation. However, presuming such an offer was made, it would be asinine for Armstrong to agree to pay a man money without ensuring that he will not "suddenly remember" additional revelations after the settlement check is cashed. Settlements of this kind are always accompanied by mutual releases and confidentiality/muzzle provisions. That doesn't necessarily mean the paying party has something to hide -- it often means he doesn't want to be badgered by the same scumbag when he runs out of money.

You may well be more up to speed on the reported facts of the Anderson suit, but you have a lot to learn about how lawsuits are settled.

whiteboytrash said:

Zorzoli concluded by debunking the idea of a new "explosive" EPO that passes through the system in 24 hours, saying "any kind of EPO, no matter how fast it passes through the system, changes other blood parameters. So it's detectable."

Like (significant) usage of EPO, it is detectable by the simplest test of all, a hematocrit.

So Frigo who tested positive in 2001 but was never caught again by testers was found 4 years later with a car full of the stuff !

So he and his wife just like carrying it around France when a really big bike race just happened to be on ?

Ted B said:

Like (significant) usage of EPO, it is detectable by the simplest test of all, a hematocrit.

whiteboytrash said:

So Frigo who tested positive in 2001 but was never caught again by testers was found 4 years later with a car full of the stuff ! So he and his wife just like carrying it around France when a really big bike race just happened to be on ?

My point is that EPO (and any other compound that stimulates RBC synthesis) works by raising one's hematocrit. If he's not failing a hematocrit screen, then it seems logical to assume he's not getting much out of it.