Two TDF being contested?

"Although that can partly be explained by the fact the peloton benefited from favourable wind conditions as they raced from west to east in the first 10 days, speeds on the race left many otherwise good climbers, including McGee, struggling to hang on in the tough Alpine cols."

Since when has McGee been a "good climber"?

"There has to come a time when you say, 'right that's enough'," said Rous, a former national champion who raced with Festina when they were thrown off the Tour in 1998.
"One minute we're able to keep up with the best, then all of a sudden we're not. I can't hold my hands up and say what's going on at other teams. I've got no proof."

Right! I am supposed to believe a guy who just got caught? Sounds like Filipo Simeoni.
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Flyer said:

Even the dopers are complaining. It is not just me and my anti-doping posts. It is actual TDF riders and doctors saying it. (go ahead and deny it, I dare you)

Now the doctor for Brad McGee & Baden Cooke (remember his ex-girlfriend's phone call re: pot belge, liquid amphetamines)----Dr. Gerard Guillaume of Francaise des Jeux says that there are two races being run. The good doctor is "Ringing the doping alarm bell'. Is anyone listening??????

His riders are not on the drugs that the front guys using. This year the speeds are punishing.

Even admitted anemia doper Didier Rous (of the 1998 Festina Team) says that a time comes when one says;
'Right, that's enough!'

Wow! The cheaters are complaining that the other guys are cheating better---The TDF is just like NASCAR racing.

Read it for yourself, it as funny as the 2004 AIS horse hormone scandal.

abc.net.aus1415546.htmOpen ↗

I told you Dicovery were doping with secret sauce that nobody else has access too. Believe it.

I don't know, sounds a bit like sour grapes to me. Sandy Casar is 15 minutes behind...I think Casar is probably a rider who should be 15 minutes behind LA, IB, and JU in all reality. Was Moncoutie in top form at the Dauphine? Was LA? Did IB or JU or Rasmussen even race at the Dauphine this year? I can't help but wonder if those guys in top form at the Dauphine would not have hammered everyone else there, too. Rous' comment that one minute we can keep up with the best, the next we cannot....is that really so unusual? Are you keeping up with the best cyclists in the world in top form and not the next, or could the top guys simply be peaking when some riders are on the way out of top form? Certainly, I'm not naive about doping in the peloton (Flyer I think I've read all your posts) but some (not all) of the performances of the top riders or teams can certainly be explained without blaming rampant, impossible to detect doping methods.

When McGee did a top ten GC in the friigin 2004 Giro di Italia, that's when McGee climbed with the billy goats.

And if you won't believe dopers and you won't believe the doctors and you won't believe the Frigo bust, and you won't believe Millar, Hamilton, Camenzind----you are not being open to the truth.

Tous Dope----now even the competitors say it!!!!

Not just the fans.

thebluetrain said:

"Although that can partly be explained by the fact the peloton benefited from favourable wind conditions as they raced from west to east in the first 10 days, speeds on the race left many otherwise good climbers, including McGee, struggling to hang on in the tough Alpine cols."

Since when has McGee been a "good climber"?

"There has to come a time when you say, 'right that's enough'," said Rous, a former national champion who raced with Festina when they were thrown off the Tour in 1998.
"One minute we're able to keep up with the best, then all of a sudden we're not. I can't hold my hands up and say what's going on at other teams. I've got no proof."

Right! I am supposed to believe a guy who just got caught? Sounds like Filipo Simeoni.
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Flyer said:

Even the dopers are complaining. It is not just me and my anti-doping posts. It is actual TDF riders and doctors saying it. (go ahead and deny it, I dare you)

Now the doctor for Brad McGee & Baden Cooke (remember his ex-girlfriend's phone call re: pot belge, liquid amphetamines)----Dr. Gerard Guillaume of Francaise des Jeux says that there are two races being run. The good doctor is "Ringing the doping alarm bell'. Is anyone listening??????

His riders are not on the drugs that the front guys using. This year the speeds are punishing.

Even admitted anemia doper Didier Rous (of the 1998 Festina Team) says that a time comes when one says;
'Right, that's enough!'

Wow! The cheaters are complaining that the other guys are cheating better---The TDF is just like NASCAR racing.

Read it for yourself, it as funny as the 2004 AIS horse hormone scandal.

abc.net.aus1415546.htmOpen ↗

I told you Dicovery were doping with secret sauce that nobody else has access too. Believe it.

The article actually refutes your little theory. A few days ago you were smug in your opinion that no one in cycling would dare blow the whistle on anyone else for fear of losing their own livelihood. Now, suddenly, they're apparently willing to do so because . . . the same people that have been beating their asses in the TdF for almost a decade are still doing it? LOL. What a revelation.

Consider the alternative, you obsessive little weasel: some has-beens who can't hang with the big-dogs are lashing out in frustration. Seems logical, which is precisely why you can't grasp it.

Now go crawl back in your hole, because the black helicopters are beginning to circle. :eek:

Didier Rous: "One minute we're able to keep up with the best, then all of a sudden we're not. I can't hold my hands up and say what's going on at other teams. I've got no proof."

In short the argument made by these people are: We suck relative to the best in the peloton. Our best GC person is terrible. We used to be better relatively. Therefore, other people must be cheating.

Conclusion: No go. You might just be bad cyclists. 😄

Probably a little like the situation Motorola found themself in around 1994/1995, depicted in the claimed excerpt of "LA Confidential" that can be found on newsnet:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/browse_thread/thread/217936d04d9ee627/68c9126349b03b31?q=%22LA+confidential%22%2B%22excerpt%22&rnum=1&hl=en#68c9126349b03b31

I suspect Flyer is actually Matt DeCanio trying out his new career as a troll, since his last career as bike pro and clarevoyant doping preacher went [censored] up.

toa said:

Probably a little like the situation Motorola found themself in around 1994/1995, depicted in the claimed excerpt of "LA Confidential" that can be found on newsnet:

groups-beta.google.com68c9126349b03b31Open ↗

The flaw in L.A Confidential is suggesting that Armstrong was just a normal male, when that is not correct. He was blowing away tri-athletes at an age of 16. And tri-athletes are every bit as fit as TDF riders and maybe better TT cyclists then most TDF riders. And no one is ever going to convince me Armstrong was being provided secret , undetectable dope at the age of 16.
This year is fast because it is in the best interests of Discovery to keep it fast aided by a tailwind. The proof that it has been kept fast by Discovery is that Discovery is riding at the edge of it's limit. That is why the climbing goats have not been able to climb. And Discovery has ben hammering at the front for most of the time. And I may be wrong, but does this TDF have fewer climbs ????
The link to L.A Confidential adds nothing. The part of that link where Lemonds wife goes public because Greg cannot because of his Trek sponsorship makes me take a whole new look at the Greg Lemond legacy. Plus , the fans in cycling must remember that Greg is fighting for his stake of the goosdies of the US market. Greg would have a huge financial windfall if LA tested positive. And part of Greg;s European legacy is "It's about the money." He knows what is going to happen when Trek launches the "LANCE" line of mid-price range cycling products. Lance is a household name where most people are not familiar with Greg.

Two T's DF speeds : this same idea was put forward in the aftermath of the Festina scandal in 1998.

You had Basson cycling at a more realistic speed and you had LA cycling at the PED speed.

The two speed TDF issue quietly went away when the Festina scandal was
conveniently forgotten, after 1998.
But the issue was never addressed.

Part of the indication of doping is sudden "improvements" in ability and
results :
The peloton and the pro scene do know who is and who isn't a dopeur.
Moncoutie is not considered to be a dopeur for example.
Charly Mottet in the previous peloton was deemed to be clean.

Hincapie winning the most difficult mountain stage of this year's TDF... I am not an expert but the guy didn't start out as a climber or did he?😎 😎

Let me preface this post by saying that I clearly believe there are some pro riders still doping. However, I wonder if Merckx raced in this era would he be accused of being on drugs? I think so. The guy dominated on every level, year round. If a rider today were to win even half of the races that Merckx won, he would have been drummed out of the sport years ago. McCarthyism is alive and well in pro cycling in 2005.

JDM said:

. McCarthyism is alive and well in pro cycling in 2005.

I would say doping is alive and well in procycling in 2005. I can't believe that someone who is 1.91m tall could win that particular stage. I said it earlier. I am not an expert. But this just doesn't make sense. There were good climbers in that breakaway and he blew them away. I don't want to start an argument. I respect everybody's point of view but to me what I saw yesterday was scandalous...

[font=Verdana]I think what the French riders are complaining about (as detailed in Le Monde by Jean-Marie Le Blanc during the week) is that French cycling used to be rife with drugs. This industry and usage has since been shutdown in [/font][font=Verdana]France[/font][font=Verdana] by the police, customs and to some degree by the French cycling federation. The problem they have is that other countries have not gone to the same lengths as [/font][font=Verdana]France[/font][font=Verdana] has. The French riders have cited [/font][font=Verdana]Spain[/font][font=Verdana] and [/font][font=Verdana]Italy[/font][font=Verdana] being two countries which have not clamped down on doping (where all cyclists choose to live and train). Rous knows more than anyone about doping so if he is complaining he knows it. There are tell tail signs in people physical appearance and there personalities. The easiest way to tell is the ‘yellow eyes’. If you look at pictures of Ben Johnson 88 at prior you will see the yellow eye look. Excessive EPO use also gives riders ‘red eye’ but generally this can be past off has fatigue.

My impartial view on proceedings is that there is some clean riders in the peleton and slowly and slowly they are gaining a voice. 10 years ago there was a rule that no one ever spoke about doping.

If you really want to know why Lance doesn’t go well in the heat when he was born and bred in one of the most humid places in the world it might come down to the other things in his body. You will have noticed that in yesterdays and Saturday stage that LA took water from the team car on the descents. This is against the rules and he could have suffered a time penalty if the commissioners picked up on it. IB and JU followed the rules so should he have. The extra water intake was obviously to counter the effects of other things within the system.

No one would question his achievements in the sport, he is a true champion and superstar but is the $20million a year he takes from the sport legitimate ? Even Richard Vinrenque wife didn’t know of his excessive usage of banned substances so its easy to hide.

Something to think about for all of us. Its time for the UCI and other countries to come into line with [/font][font=Verdana]France[/font][font=Verdana]; Which is the only country willing to tackle doping head on.
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Bigclimber said:

I don't know, sounds a bit like sour grapes to me. Sandy Casar is 15 minutes behind...I think Casar is probably a rider who should be 15 minutes behind LA, IB, and JU in all reality. Was Moncoutie in top form at the Dauphine? Was LA? Did IB or JU or Rasmussen even race at the Dauphine this year? I can't help but wonder if those guys in top form at the Dauphine would not have hammered everyone else there, too. Rous' comment that one minute we can keep up with the best, the next we cannot....is that really so unusual? Are you keeping up with the best cyclists in the world in top form and not the next, or could the top guys simply be peaking when some riders are on the way out of top form? Certainly, I'm not naive about doping in the peloton (Flyer I think I've read all your posts) but some (not all) of the performances of the top riders or teams can certainly be explained without blaming rampant, impossible to detect doping methods.

What you are saying is sadly true enough. Too much of sports has been conditioned now by PEDs. Frigo caught again. Very bad luck, I don't figure he is doing what others are not. His father was quoted the other day as saying of how the young Frigo when brought on board to his first professional team was asked if he had a personal doctor. To which he replied "no". He was then referred to the team doctor with the commission "take whatever he says to, wars cannot be won with water pistols after all". If the rider gets caught one time he can probably re-enter without too much hassle as long as he confesses to a mistake. Frigo getting caught again and at the tour de france, well we have got to figure he is finished as a pro rider. Will he now bare his soul and reveal some sordid details of the peleton? The system requires the rider to take his punishment and not open his mouth. In that way all can go on as before. While the punishment of the single athlete gives the public the impression that there is serious work being done against PED abuse, while the pharmaceutical suppliers and investors keep on motoring in the background like drug czars. Something is certainly strange when you see big guys climbing mountains better than little guys.

Flyer said:

Even the dopers are complaining. It is not just me and my anti-doping posts. It is actual TDF riders and doctors saying it. (go ahead and deny it, I dare you)

Now the doctor for Brad McGee & Baden Cooke (remember his ex-girlfriend's phone call re: pot belge, liquid amphetamines)----Dr. Gerard Guillaume of Francaise des Jeux says that there are two races being run. The good doctor is "Ringing the doping alarm bell'. Is anyone listening??????

His riders are not on the drugs that the front guys using. This year the speeds are punishing.

Even admitted anemia doper Didier Rous (of the 1998 Festina Team) says that a time comes when one says;
'Right, that's enough!'

Wow! The cheaters are complaining that the other guys are cheating better---The TDF is just like NASCAR racing.

Read it for yourself, it as funny as the 2004 AIS horse hormone scandal.

abc.net.aus1415546.htmOpen ↗

I told you Dicovery were doping with secret sauce that nobody else has access too. Believe it.

Further comments from Frigo's father:

“I said to him that I was firmly against doping. In reply, he said that us fans were very good at applauding the winner. The first time he went to the Tour, he begged me to bring him drugs. My wife was furious...
“When you start to dope, you buy yourself a one-way ticket[…] It’s been proven that some of the most atrocious illness can be caused by doping. Write it in big letters: ‘Boys, stop this! Appreciate the value of your health and stop playing at hurting yourselves’.

“Cycling was the first sport to introduce serious dope-testing but now the tests are a farce. You only have to look at the average speeds, how they climb mountains. No, ladies and gentlemen, it’s impossible to go that fast. And how can you explain why these boys are always ill? One virus after another, glandular fevers…

He continued: “Dario has made mistakes and it’s right that he should pay. But he isn’t the only guilty party. I don’t want to hear any more talk of riders who are whiter than white on the TV. It’d be better if they said nothing. I’ve had enough of hypocrisy. I used to watch races on the TV for news of my son. Now I won’t even have that. I’ll know nothing about him any more. I have a wonderful wife and daughter. Otherwise I’d take a pistol to my head out of shame. But everyone should be ashamed – everyone who’s complicit with this system.”

ilpirata said:

What you are saying is sadly true enough. Too much of sports has been conditioned now by PEDs. Frigo caught again. Very bad luck, I don't figure he is doing what others are not. His father was quoted the other day as saying of how the young Frigo when brought on board to his first professional team was asked if he had a personal doctor. To which he replied "no". He was then referred to the team doctor with the commission "take whatever he says to, wars cannot be won with water pistols after all". If the rider gets caught one time he can probably re-enter without too much hassle as long as he confesses to a mistake. Frigo getting caught again and at the tour de france, well we have got to figure he is finished as a pro rider. Will he now bare his soul and reveal some sordid details of the peleton? The system requires the rider to take his punishment and not open his mouth. In that way all can go on as before. While the punishment of the single athlete gives the public the impression that there is serious work being done against PED abuse, while the pharmaceutical suppliers and investors keep on motoring in the background like drug czars. Something is certainly strange when you see big guys climbing mountains better than little guys.

I think the French are just grasping at straws trying to explain their lack of success in recent years. McGee and Cooke com out of the AIS track team so their credibility is not good.
I don't know anything about French cycling but there could be a variety of reasons why they can't produce great champions anymore. The fact that they only have two races of note says a lot to me.
Australia just lost a Davis Cup tennis semi-final to Argentina. There are plenty of recriminations flying around as to why a country that once produced the best players in the world now only has one player of note and world class. No-one has suggested that Argentina and Spain and other leading tennis nations are doping up their players. It's just that the sport is more popular in those countries and attracts a lot of youngsters and money to train them. It seems that French cycling may not be as well promoted and supported as it once was.
The idea that French cyclists are clean whilst the rest of the world dopes is ludicrous. I'm sure they are up to it as much as anyone from anywhere else.

Lets just say for the sake of arguement that LA is doping (and at this moment in time I'm still on the fence about this). Let's just imagine that shortly after this years tour it was proved beyond doubt that he had cheated. What do you think would happen? The news could destroy the sport after all the hype about LA and his comeback from cancer. Do you think it would be kept quiet? I would be interested in peoples opinions about this.

Personally I think pretty much every cyclist n the Tour is dirty....the question is: What is dirty?

The line between legal and illegal substances has greyed over the years...

The stuff most (if not all) the riders are taking is legal purely because it's light years ahead of doping control. Think about it - Discovery take like 42 people to the Tour - their budget is enormous. WADA and those type of agencies have tiny budgets compared to any pro team.

Each team has at least two doctors....hmmmm.

It's a race against time - the riders keep taking stuff until it's banned then it's on to the next drug. Is it good for you? I don't think so....

It's like sticking a supercharger, turbo and nitrous onto an engine and expecting it to last just as long as a bog standard engine.

Is it a cycling only problem? Hell no - I reckon any sport where the there is big money is a problem.

Thinking cycling is clean is like thinking that boxing is not rigged (and full of dope).

[font=Verdana][font=Verdana]The French are annoyed as they have cleaned up after the Festina affair where as other countries have just become better at covering their tracks. With the possibility of losing your ProTour licence if caught teams will do anything now not to test positive. When riders say I'm the most tested person means nothing when you only ride two races a year.... we know that out of competition testing does not happen like it does in other sports. Its just to expensive and the riders pick such remote locations to train.

Lesson learnt from Balco is that the creators of drugs are way ahead of the testers as they have more money to fund the creation of and there is big money in this game.

Although everyone gets on Flyer's back but he is right about one thing... Testers don’t catch drug cheats, border guards and customs do.

I think we have to expect that the top 25% of riders in the peleton are using some form of illegal assistance. We may never know and the only way to tell is if there is a high death rate from heart failure in the next 5-7 years.

I still question how a rider can come 145th in a prolouge in February being beaten by average riders and then ride a world best time 4 months later catching the man ranked 2nd in time trials.... this is not the only example.... if things were natural as everyone tells me then Tom Boonon and Fletcha would have no problems in keeping up with Hincapie in the mountains…… I mean come on !
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mocka58 said:

I think the French are just grasping at straws trying to explain their lack of success in recent years. McGee and Cooke com out of the AIS track team so their credibility is not good.
I don't know anything about French cycling but there could be a variety of reasons why they can't produce great champions anymore. The fact that they only have two races of note says a lot to me.
Australia just lost a Davis Cup tennis semi-final to Argentina. There are plenty of recriminations flying around as to why a country that once produced the best players in the world now only has one player of note and world class. No-one has suggested that Argentina and Spain and other leading tennis nations are doping up their players. It's just that the sport is more popular in those countries and attracts a lot of youngsters and money to train them. It seems that French cycling may not be as well promoted and supported as it once was.
The idea that French cyclists are clean whilst the rest of the world dopes is ludicrous. I'm sure they are up to it as much as anyone from anywhere else.