Upgrade Plan for Trek 400: Cranks first

In article <[email hidden]>,

bigsky said:

I hear that there are compatability issues between 9spd
Ultegra and non-Ultegra components and would like to know
if that includes cranks.

I have a Trek 400 I bought in 1986 with brand new SIS
drivetrain. I rebuild it with Ultegra (bar end shifters)
in 1990 (minus the crank/BB) and now I am looking to
upgrade it to 27 speed Ultegra set slowly (in budget).

Can I replace the BB and crankset with new Ultegra
hardware? The Sakae SX double crank is a 5 bolt with a
130mm bcd mounting. If the chainrings have changed, is
there any problem using the older chainrings on new
Ultegra cranks?

The BB is in the worst shape, so I want to replace it, the
crankset (Ultegra triple) and front derailler (if
nessicary) first. I would use my existing 7 speed wheelset
and derailler (front shifter in friction mode)until I can
work replacing the rest into my budget. Its been a number
of years since I worked in a bike shop, so any technical
details about the new Ultegra 9 speed hardware would be
appreciated.

Are you upgrading to new Ultegra gear? Because the 2004
Ultegra is all but guaranteed to use the new Hollowtech II
crank/BB setup. This looks like a substantial improvement
over the current pipe-spindle design used by Shimano.

Also, if you need a stopgap BB, something like a Shimano UN-
72 is about $20 and of very good quality.

Ultegra will also likely become a 10-speed group next year,
but that matters much less, since the only part that is
likely to change due to that is the right shifter, and
possibly the freehub body. Based on the Dura-Ace 10 setup,
everything else will be compatible between 9 and 10 speed.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
sfu.cawiredcolaOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club

Ryan, I'm not hung up on going with the newest Ultegra. I've
been out of serious riding for some time, but I have been
happy with the old Ultegra. If I can get a new 2003 ultegra
crank for a bargin, thats OK. I have even been considering
using a different crank (Ritchey comes to mind) if there is
a problem in using old + new Ultegra. As long as I can get a
quality system built in stages to get me riding faster
(schedule, not speed). Steve

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

bigsky said:

I hear that there are compatability issues between 9spd
Ultegra and non-Ultegra components and would like to know
if that includes cranks.

I have a Trek 400 I bought in 1986 with brand new SIS
drivetrain. I rebuild it with Ultegra (bar end shifters)
in 1990 (minus the crank/BB) and now I am looking to
upgrade it to 27 speed Ultegra set slowly (in budget).

Can I replace the BB and crankset with new Ultegra
hardware? The Sakae SX double crank is a 5 bolt with a
130mm bcd mounting. If the chainrings have changed, is
there any problem using the older chainrings on new
Ultegra cranks?

The BB is in the worst shape, so I want to replace it, the
crankset (Ultegra triple) and front derailler (if
nessicary) first. I would use my existing 7 speed wheelset
and derailler (front shifter in friction mode)until I can
work replacing the rest into my budget. Its been a number
of years since I worked in a bike shop, so any technical
details about the new Ultegra 9 speed hardware would be
appreciated.

Are you upgrading to new Ultegra gear? Because the 2004
Ultegra is all but guaranteed to use the new Hollowtech II
crank/BB setup. This looks like a substantial improvement
over the current pipe-spindle design used by Shimano.

Also, if you need a stopgap BB, something like a Shimano
UN-72 is about $20 and of very good quality.

Ultegra will also likely become a 10-speed group next
year, but that matters much less, since the only part that
is likely to change due to that is the right shifter, and
possibly the freehub body. Based on the Dura-Ace 10 setup,
everything else will be compatible between 9 and 10 speed.

In article <[email hidden]>,
bigsky <[email hidden]> wrote:

[post de-TOFU'd]

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]-
rthlink.net>, bigsky <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The BB is in the worst shape, so I want to replace it,
the crankset (Ultegra triple) and front derailler (if
nessicary) first. I would use my existing 7 speed
wheelset and derailler (front shifter in friction
mode)until I can work replacing the rest into my budget.
Its been a number of years since I worked in a bike
shop, so any technical details about the new Ultegra 9
speed hardware would be appreciated.

Basically, the new Ultegra hardware is pretty
straightforward. A set of 9v shifters will work with almost
any indexing-capable Shimano derailleurs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you upgrading to new Ultegra gear? Because the 2004
Ultegra is all but guaranteed to use the new Hollowtech
II crank/BB setup. This looks like a substantial
improvement over the current pipe-spindle design used by
Shimano.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ultegra will also likely become a 10-speed group next
year, but that matters much less, since the only part
that is likely to change due to that is the right
shifter, and possibly the freehub body. Based on the Dura-
Ace 10 setup, everything else will be compatible between
9 and 10 speed.

I'm not hung up on going with the newest Ultegra. I've
been out of serious riding for some time, but I have been
happy with the old Ultegra. If I can get a new 2003
ultegra crank for a bargin, thats OK. I have even been
considering using a different crank (Ritchey comes to
mind) if there is a problem in using old + new Ultegra. As
long as I can get a quality system built in stages to get
me riding faster (schedule, not speed). Steve

If you can get recent Ultegra cheaply, that's super. But
since you're not racing and just want nice gear, in
Shimano's line I would consider 105, at least if price
matters much.

The reason I suggest it is that it has most of the
performance of Ultegra (and as of right now, there are
virtually no functional differences: they use the same BB
spindle type, and are both 9-speed systems). If if it was
me, and my budget fell into the can-afford-Ultegra-but-can't-wait-until-Fall-for-2005-
Ultegra range, I would probably buy an aftermarket crank,
BB, and rings (probably something fancy and ISIS-based like
those nifty FSA cranks), mainly because what I have heard
here (mainly from Jobst) leads me to believe that ISIS
spindles do not have the same inherent spindle-damage issues
that Shimano's Octalink setup does.

As for the rest of the system, Tiagra is most of the
functionality and a bit more weight for a lot less money,
but by then you're into square-taper spindles and cheesier-
looking shifters (style matters, right?)

Finally, I am a sucker for the 105 black-colored group, so
there you go.

Keep in mind I am so cheap I race on a bike with a Sora
shifter, right side only.
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
sfu.cawiredcolaOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club

bigsky said:

I hear that there are compatability issues between 9spd
Ultegra and non-Ultegra components and would like to know
if that includes cranks.

I have a Trek 400 I bought in 1986 with brand new SIS
drivetrain. I rebuild it with Ultegra (bar end shifters)
in 1990 (minus the crank/BB) and now I am looking to
upgrade it to 27 speed Ultegra set slowly (in budget).

Can I replace the BB and crankset with new Ultegra
hardware? The Sakae SX double crank is a 5 bolt with a
130mm bcd mounting. If the chainrings have changed, is
there any problem using the older chainrings on new
Ultegra cranks?

The BB is in the worst shape, so I want to replace it, the
crankset (Ultegra triple) and front derailler (if
nessicary) first. I would use my existing 7 speed wheelset
and derailler (front shifter in friction mode)until I can
work replacing the rest into my budget. Its been a number
of years since I worked in a bike shop, so any technical
details about the new Ultegra 9 speed hardware would be
appreciated.

Steve

Steve,

I assume your Trek is 21 speed (7 speed rear)? Since you
want to go with 27 speed (9 rear), you will need to upgrade
a lot of components. Rear hub (rebuild or replace rear
wheel), cassette, chain, shifters, most likely rear
deraileur as well. I have used 8 speed cranks with 9 speed
drivetrains (may or may not work ok), but since you are
looking for a new crank/bb anyway... If you use friction
(front) bar-end shifters, you can get by with a 7/8 speed
front deraileur. But since you are already spending $$ for
the rest of the stuff, you might as well get the front
deraileur too. You may need to spread the rear drop-outs of
your frame also. I think the rear hub spacing may have
increased between 7 and 8 speed.

I guess the point I am getting to is: How attached are you
to your Trek? It is very easy to spend more upgrading your
old bike than it would cost to buy a new bike, especially
with some of the close-out deals going on now. Add up all
the parts and see if it is cost effective. If not, maybe
replace the BB for now, and save up for a new bike.

[email hidden] (rocketman58) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

bigsky wrote:

Quoted message said:

I assume your Trek is 21 speed (7 speed rear)? Since you
want to go with 27 speed (9 rear), you will need to
upgrade a lot of components. Rear hub (rebuild or replace
rear wheel), cassette, chain, shifters, most likely rear
deraileur as well. I have used 8 speed cranks with 9 speed
drivetrains (may or may not work ok), but since you are
looking for a new crank/bb anyway... If you use friction
(front) bar-end shifters, you can get by with a 7/8 speed
front deraileur. But since you are already spending $$ for
the rest of the stuff, you might as well get the front
deraileur too. You may need to spread the rear drop-outs
of your frame also. I think the rear hub spacing may have
increased between 7 and 8 speed.

I guess the point I am getting to is: How attached are you
to your Trek? It is very easy to spend more upgrading your
old bike than it would cost to buy a new bike, especially
with some of the close-out deals going on now. Add up all
the parts and see if it is cost effective. If not, maybe
replace the BB for now, and save up for a new bike.

Nyet! The Trek 400 is a wonderful bike and it would be a
shame not to take advantage of it and fix it up.

You are a bit off on your suppositions. A 1986 Trek would
have had a 6sp freewheel in the rear, not 7. The rear
dropout spacing should be 126; possible to put a modern
130mm hub in there, but easier and better to spread the
rear. Not that big of deal. Contrary to your post, the front
end of the drive train is essentially blind to what is on
the rear. I can take my 1988 Trek 400T and put on a 9sp rear
and not worry one bit about the current cranks and front
derailleur. What does need to match are the shifters and the
front derailleur, and the chainrings and the front
derailleur.

If it were me, I would not rush to STI. I would move the DT
shifters to bar ends, get a better crankset/BB, and then ...
if needed ... fix up the wheels. Wait a minute, this was me
a few months ago. All I did so far was move the DT shifters
and build new wheels. Was tempted to spread the rear for an
8 or 9 sp drive train, but in the end pulled out an old Phil
Wood threaded hubset and still have a 6sp freewheel on the
back. Want to ditch the BioPace crankset, but that can wait
a day or two. Even used it on a 3 day mini-tour in February
- worked great.

My vote, keep the nice steel frame and fix it up to be
what you want.

- rick

Quoted message said:

bigsky said:

Can I replace the BB and crankset with new Ultegra
hardware? The Sakae SX double crank is a 5 bolt with a
130mm bcd mounting. If the chainrings have changed, is
there any problem using the older chainrings on new
Ultegra cranks?

The BB is in the worst shape, so I want to replace it, the
crankset (Ultegra triple) and front derailler (if
nessicary) first. I would use my existing 7 speed wheelset
and derailler (front shifter in friction mode)until I can
work replacing the rest into my budget. Its been a number
of years since I worked in a bike shop, so any technical
details about the new Ultegra 9 speed hardware would be
appreciated.

If you replace the BB and the cranks at the same time, you
should have no problems. The new chainrings should work just
fine with the old chain and f. derailler, assuming the
chainrings are about the same size. If the old chainrings
are smallish (i.e. 26-38-48), your front derailler will work
but shifting will be less than optimal.

rocketman58 said:

I assume your Trek is 21 speed (7 speed rear)? Since you
want to go with 27 speed (9 rear), you will need to
upgrade a lot of components. Rear hub (rebuild or replace
rear wheel), cassette, chain, shifters, most likely rear
deraileur as well.

If the old rear wheel has a freewheel, you'll need a new
rear hub. If the old rear wheel has a cassette you'll be
able to use the old wheel with a new freehub. If you're
unfamiliar with the terms freehub, freewheel, and cassette,
go to www.sheldonbrown.com/harris and look the words up in
his glossary. You'll also find an excellent page that will
answer most (if not all) of your questions on this matter.

You won't need to replace the rear derailler if it's made
by Shimano.

Quoted message said:

How attached are you to your Trek? It is very easy to
spend more upgrading your old bike than it would cost to
buy a new bike, especially with some of the close-out
deals going on now. Add up all the parts and see if it is
cost effective. If not, maybe replace the BB for now, and
save up for a new bike.

I second that opinion. I'd modify it by saying this: if you
want an Ultegra drivetrain, the new bike route might make
more sense than the upgrade. If you want to refurbish the
old bike, I suggest using lower-cost components. They work
just as well, but they weigh a bit more and maybe don't
quite look as nice. The cheaper components won't impress
your friends as much, but if you're riding a 1986 bike,
you're probably not worried about that.

--
Dave dvt at psu dot edu

dvt said:

If the old rear wheel has a freewheel, you'll need a new
rear hub. If the old rear wheel has a cassette you'll be
able to use the old wheel with a new freehub. If you're
unfamiliar with the terms freehub, freewheel, and
cassette, go to www.sheldonbrown.com/harris and look the
words up in his glossary. You'll also find an excellent
page that will answer most (if not all) of your questions
on this matter.

You can NOT use a 9 speed Shimano Cassette on a 7 speed
Shimano freehub - At least not with all 9 cogs. At least his
has been my experience.

Thank you for all the info. Basically there are several
aspects of what I am doing here. I want to keep my steel
frame, one I specifically selected for the geometry. Not to
mention, they do not make steel frames much anymore, and I
don't like the feel of aluminum. The only frmaes in steel
are not of as high quality or are very costly.

When I upgraded my Trek before (12 to 14 speed, SIS to
Ultegra with bar ends) in 1990, I was working for a bike
shop (Bicycle Sports, Shereveport LA). I enjoyed working on
the bike as much as riding it and had plenty of access to
the tools required. I even built the wheelset that are still
strong and true today. Now, I don't have access to the
tools, so instead of spending all the money to get a new
bike, I will be using the same amount to buy upgrade
components and tools for wheelbuilding.

Long story short (too late, I know) not only do I want to
keep the frame, I want to invest in some tools to have some
fun too. I'm just glad I can upgrade slowly so I don't have
to take it out of commision or have to do it all at once.

Thank you for your help.

Steve

dvt said:

Quoted message said:

bigsky said:

Can I replace the BB and crankset with new Ultegra
hardware? The Sakae SX double crank is a 5 bolt with a
130mm bcd mounting. If the chainrings have changed, is
there any problem using the older chainrings on new
Ultegra cranks?

The BB is in the worst shape, so I want to replace it,
the crankset (Ultegra triple) and front derailler (if
nessicary) first. I would use my existing 7 speed
wheelset and derailler (front shifter in friction
mode)until I can work replacing the rest into my budget.
Its been a number of years since I worked in a bike
shop, so any technical details about the new Ultegra 9
speed hardware would be appreciated.

If you replace the BB and the cranks at the same time, you
should have no problems. The new chainrings should work
just fine with the old chain and f. derailler, assuming
the chainrings are about the same size. If the old
chainrings are smallish (i.e. 26-38-48), your front
derailler will work but shifting will be less than
optimal.

rocketman58 said:

I assume your Trek is 21 speed (7 speed rear)? Since you
want to go with 27 speed (9 rear), you will need to
upgrade a lot of components. Rear hub (rebuild or replace
rear wheel), cassette, chain, shifters, most likely rear
deraileur as well.

If the old rear wheel has a freewheel, you'll need a new
rear hub. If the old rear wheel has a cassette you'll be
able to use the old wheel with a new freehub. If you're
unfamiliar with the terms freehub, freewheel, and
cassette, go to www.sheldonbrown.com/harris and look the
words up in his glossary. You'll also find an excellent
page that will answer most (if not all) of your questions
on this matter.

You won't need to replace the rear derailler if it's made
by Shimano.

Quoted message said:

How attached are you to your Trek? It is very easy to
spend more upgrading your old bike than it would cost to
buy a new bike, especially with some of the close-out
deals going on now. Add up all the parts and see if it is
cost effective. If not, maybe replace the BB for now, and
save up for a new bike.

I second that opinion. I'd modify it by saying this: if
you want an Ultegra drivetrain, the new bike route might
make more sense than the upgrade. If you want to refurbish
the old bike, I suggest using lower-cost components. They
work just as well, but they weigh a bit more and maybe
don't quite look as nice. The cheaper components won't
impress your friends as much, but if you're riding a 1986
bike, you're probably not worried about that.

rocketman58 said:

dvt said:

If the old rear wheel has a freewheel, you'll need a new
rear hub. If the old rear wheel has a cassette you'll be
able to use the old wheel with a new freehub. If you're
unfamiliar with the terms freehub, freewheel, and
cassette, go to www.sheldonbrown.com/harris and look the
words up in his glossary. You'll also find an excellent
page that will answer most (if not all) of your questions
on this matter.

You can NOT use a 9 speed Shimano Cassette on a 7 speed
Shimano freehub - At least not with all 9 cogs. At least
his has been my experience.

You are right -- only 8 of 9 cogs will fit on a 7-
speed freehub.

But that's not what I meant to say. I meant to say you could
replace the _freehub body_. (I just noticed that my original
post left of the word "body."😉 I have swapped 7 and 8/9
speed freehub bodies a few times.

F'rexample: I had a 105 8 speed rear hub. I pulled the
freehub body (which contains the freewheel mechanism) and
replaced it with a 7-speed freehub body. I then needed to
shorten the axle so the QR lever would work, and I needed to
get the proper seal around the axle bearings in the freehub,
but everything else was just fine.

--
Dave dvt at psu dot edu