upgrading suntour 7-speed drivetrain to brifters

[JBAfromNY]

I have an early 90's Specialized Sirrus Triple road bike with a
Suntour drivetrain and downtube shifters. The combined brake/shift
levers found on current roadbikes seem like a very good idea, and I'd
love to have them, but am somewhat confused about what it would take
to put them on my bike. Here are the specifics of what I have now.
How much of this can be kept? What will have to go? What are some
reasonable options for new components? Is this likely to run into as
much money as an entire bike? If so, any opinions on whether this
frame is a platform worth upgrading?

Rear derailleur -- Suntour Edge (7-speed, index)
Front derailler -- Suntour Edge Triple (non-index)
Shifters -- Suntour Edge downtube (7-speed, index)
Rear hub/Cluster -- Suntour "sealed" hub ("XC", I think) with
(non-cassette) 7-speed freewheel
Crankset/BB -- Sakae "Edge" road triple
Brakes -- DiaCompe Edge single-pivot sidepulls
Chain -- Sedis (not sure of the model)

Wheels -- Front and rear are non-matching. The rear is the Suntour
described above with a Wolber (forgot the model), brown-ish colored
anodized alloy rim. The front is a Shimano 105 hub with the same rim
as the rear. (I bought the bike as a close-out floor model which had
undergone a mysterious wheel switcheroo)

Frame -- Specialized "Direct Drive" cro-mo double-butted tubing
throughout. Lugged and brzed; vertical dropouts; lawyer lips. It
fits and I like the way it handles, but if it's one of those
situations where everything has to go ...

Everything on the bike still works, though shifting is definitely a
little rougher than when it was new. I'm reasonably handy with a
wrench (though lousy at truing and have never built a wheel). So I
could do most of the work myself. I'm in NYC, where shops are lousy
and expensive, so I'll probably have to anyway ...

Thanks in advance for advice
John

 

[John Retchford]

Jbafromny wrote:
> I have an early 90's Specialized Sirrus Triple road bike with a Suntour
> drivetrain and downtube shifters. The combined brake/shift levers found
> on current roadbikes seem like a very good idea, and I'd love to have
> them, but am somewhat confused about what it would take to put them on
> my bike. Here are the specifics of what I have now. How much of this can
> be kept? What will have to go? What are some reasonable options for new
> components? Is this likely to run into as much money as an entire bike?
> If so, any opinions on whether this frame is a platform worth upgrading?
> Rear derailleur -- Suntour Edge (7-speed, index) Front derailler --
> Suntour Edge Triple (non-index) Shifters -- Suntour Edge downtube (7-
> speed, index) Rear hub/Cluster -- Suntour "sealed" hub ("XC", I think)
> with (non-cassette) 7- speed freewheel Crankset/BB -- Sakae "Edge" road
> triple Brakes -- DiaCompe Edge single-pivot sidepulls Chain -- Sedis
> (not sure of the model)
> Wheels -- Front and rear are non-matching. The rear is the Suntour
> described above with a Wolber (forgot the model), brown-ish colored
> anodized alloy rim. The front is a Shimano 105 hub with the same rim as
> the rear. (I bought the bike as a close-out floor model which had
> undergone a mysterious wheel switcheroo)
> Frame -- Specialized "Direct Drive" cro-mo double-butted tubing
> throughout. Lugged and brzed; vertical dropouts; lawyer lips. It fits
> and I like the way it handles, but if it's one of those situations where
> everything has to go ...
> Everything on the bike still works, though shifting is definitely a
> little rougher than when it was new. I'm reasonably handy with a wrench
> (though lousy at truing and have never built a wheel). So I could do
> most of the work myself. I'm in NYC, where shops are lousy and
> expensive, so I'll probably have to anyway ...
> Thanks in advance for advice John



I did a roughly parallel thing with a Suntour equipped bicycle when I
could no longer buy Suntour cogs here in Australia. Suntour freewheels
use variable spacing between cogs and this causes problems when used
with other changers. Two suggestions:

* Buy the Campagnolo changers of your choice, but have the right one
fitted with an 8-speed index disk. Buy a Campagnolo rear derailleur of
the appropriate length and a 7-speed freewheel with a 5 mm cog
spacing, such as a Maillard. Keep your cranks and front derailleur –
the left Campag changer will work with them perfectly.

* Buy Campagnolo changers, rear derailleur, Campagnolo rear hub with 9-
speed cassette, a 9-speed chain and a copy of Jobst Brandt’s “The
Bicycle Wheel”. Re-build rear wheel. Use 10-speed stuff if you wish.

In the first case you don’t need to re-build the wheel, but you are
dependent of a supply of cogs for an old freewheel.

Try to get replies from Peter Chisholm or Andrew Muzi – they have done a
lot more of this stuff than I have.

John Retchford



--

 

[A Muzi]

JBAfromNY wrote:

> I have an early 90's Specialized Sirrus Triple road bike with a
> Suntour drivetrain and downtube shifters. The combined brake/shift
> levers found on current roadbikes seem like a very good idea, and I'd
> love to have them, but am somewhat confused about what it would take
> to put them on my bike. Here are the specifics of what I have now.
> How much of this can be kept? What will have to go? What are some
> reasonable options for new components? Is this likely to run into as
> much money as an entire bike? If so, any opinions on whether this
> frame is a platform worth upgrading?
>
> Rear derailleur -- Suntour Edge (7-speed, index)
> Front derailler -- Suntour Edge Triple (non-index)
> Shifters -- Suntour Edge downtube (7-speed, index)
> Rear hub/Cluster -- Suntour "sealed" hub ("XC", I think) with
> (non-cassette) 7-speed freewheel
> Crankset/BB -- Sakae "Edge" road triple
> Brakes -- DiaCompe Edge single-pivot sidepulls
> Chain -- Sedis (not sure of the model)
>
> Wheels -- Front and rear are non-matching. The rear is the Suntour
> described above with a Wolber (forgot the model), brown-ish colored
> anodized alloy rim. The front is a Shimano 105 hub with the same rim
> as the rear. (I bought the bike as a close-out floor model which had
> undergone a mysterious wheel switcheroo)
>
> Frame -- Specialized "Direct Drive" cro-mo double-butted tubing
> throughout. Lugged and brzed; vertical dropouts; lawyer lips. It
> fits and I like the way it handles, but if it's one of those
> situations where everything has to go ...
>
> Everything on the bike still works, though shifting is definitely a
> little rougher than when it was new. I'm reasonably handy with a
> wrench (though lousy at truing and have never built a wheel). So I
> could do most of the work myself. I'm in NYC, where shops are lousy
> and expensive, so I'll probably have to anyway ...

Assuming the equipment is in good shape, that is, your front
changer, brakes and crank are all serviceable and the bike
fits, here's one upgrade path, showing all the necessary items:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/ergokit.html

It is technically possible to get older seven speed Shimano
STi shifters and a Shimano type freewheel, chain and a
Shimano type rear changer ( and by that avoid replacing the
rear wheel).

But that would be a severely limited format and may have a
hidden front shifting ( maybe a new front changer and crank
with BB) expense. You'd also avoid retracking the frame to
130mm, making that a possible at-home upgrade.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[JBAfromNY]

A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> Assuming the equipment is in good shape, that is, your front
> changer, brakes and crank are all serviceable and the bike
> fits, here's one upgrade path, showing all the necessary items:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/ergokit.html

Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly ... This means that
my front derailleur, brakes calipers, and cranks are all compatible
with the campy levers, but that my rear derailleur and freewheel are
not, correct?

>
> It is technically possible to get older seven speed Shimano
> STi shifters and a Shimano type freewheel, chain and a
> Shimano type rear changer ( and by that avoid replacing the
> rear wheel).
>
> But that would be a severely limited format and may have a
> hidden front shifting ( maybe a new front changer and crank
> with BB) expense.

I take it this means that there's some likelihood that Shimano
shifters won't work with the Suntour front derailleur and the Sakae
crank?

> You'd also avoid retracking the frame to
> 130mm, making that a possible at-home upgrade.

Do you [or anyone else] know whether it's a certainty that my
Specialized frame would have to have the rear triangle spread out? Is
there a way that I can check this?

A couple of further follow through questions:

1. If I'm understanding correctly, it seems that that if I want to use
current production Shimano brifters, I'd have to replace everything on
the bike except the brake calipers, but that if I go Campy, I'd get to
keep my crankset and front derailleur. Am I interpreting this
correctly? Sorry to be dense about this, but if I go through with
this I want to make sure I don't have to go through too many
iterations.

2. Looking around at component prices, and looking at what you would
charge (which seems reasonable) for a conversion, it seems like this
is a ca. $500 project (unless I can hunt down the questionable Shimano
7 speed items). I realize it's hard to make this kind of judgement,
but is it worthwhile? In essence, I'd be spending $500 to wind up
with used bike (which is what I paid for the bike new in 1991, FWIW).
Is this $500 well spent, or could I get a better bike for the same
money, say, a new Trek 1000?

Thanks for your patience,
John

 

[Sheldon Brown]

JBAfromNY quoted Andy Muzi:

>>Assuming the equipment is in good shape, that is, your front
>>changer, brakes and crank are all serviceable and the bike
>>fits, here's one upgrade path, showing all the necessary items:
>>http://www.yellowjersey.org/ergokit.html
>
And re-asked:
>
> Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly ... This means that
> my front derailleur, brakes calipers, and cranks are all compatible
> with the campy levers, but that my rear derailleur and freewheel are
> not, correct?
>
Andy is correct, as usual.
>
>>It is technically possible to get older seven speed Shimano
>>STi shifters and a Shimano type freewheel, chain and a
>>Shimano type rear changer ( and by that avoid replacing the
>>rear wheel).
>>
>>But that would be a severely limited format and may have a
>>hidden front shifting ( maybe a new front changer and crank
>>with BB) expense.
>
> I take it this means that there's some likelihood that Shimano
> shifters won't work with the Suntour front derailleur and the Sakae
> crank?
>
Yes.
>
>>You'd also avoid retracking the frame to
>>130mm, making that a possible at-home upgrade.
>
> Do you [or anyone else] know whether it's a certainty that my
> Specialized frame would have to have the rear triangle spread out? Is
> there a way that I can check this?

Yes, take a ruler and measure your frame. There's an illustration of
how to do this (as well as instructions for re-spacing the frame if
needed) at: http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing

> A couple of further follow through questions:
>
> 1. If I'm understanding correctly, it seems that that if I want to use
> current production Shimano brifters, I'd have to replace everything on
> the bike except the brake calipers,

No.

> but that if I go Campy, I'd get to
> keep my crankset and front derailleur. Am I interpreting this
> correctly?

Yes.

> Sorry to be dense about this, but if I go through with
> this I want to make sure I don't have to go through too many
> iterations.
>
Going through multiple iterations is the most cost-effective way to go.
You don't _know_ your old crank & bb won't work 'til you try it.
(Front derailers are so cheap that's not much of an issue.)

> 2. Looking around at component prices, and looking at what you would
> charge (which seems reasonable) for a conversion, it seems like this
> is a ca. $500 project (unless I can hunt down the questionable Shimano
> 7 speed items). I realize it's hard to make this kind of judgement,
> but is it worthwhile? In essence, I'd be spending $500 to wind up
> with used bike (which is what I paid for the bike new in 1991, FWIW).
> Is this $500 well spent, or could I get a better bike for the same
> money, say, a new Trek 1000?

I'm afraid there's been excessive snippage from this thread, so I don't
recall what kind of frame you've got, but if it's one of the older
lugged steel Specialized models, it's likely very well worth fixing
up...those were gorgeous, beautifully built frames.

Sheldon "Old Frames, New Parts" Brown
+----------------------------------------------+
| Endless Loop: n., see Loop, Endless. |
| Loop, Endless: n., see Endless Loop. |
| --Random Shack Data Processing Dictionary |
+----------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[A Muzi]

JBAfromNY wrote:

> A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>Assuming the equipment is in good shape, that is, your front
>>changer, brakes and crank are all serviceable and the bike
>>fits, here's one upgrade path, showing all the necessary items:
>>http://www.yellowjersey.org/ergokit.html
>
>
> Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly ... This means that
> my front derailleur, brakes calipers, and cranks are all compatible
> with the campy levers, but that my rear derailleur and freewheel are
> not, correct?
>
>
>>It is technically possible to get older seven speed Shimano
>>STi shifters and a Shimano type freewheel, chain and a
>>Shimano type rear changer ( and by that avoid replacing the
>>rear wheel).
>>
>>But that would be a severely limited format and may have a
>>hidden front shifting ( maybe a new front changer and crank
>>with BB) expense.
>
>
> I take it this means that there's some likelihood that Shimano
> shifters won't work with the Suntour front derailleur and the Sakae
> crank?
>
>
>>You'd also avoid retracking the frame to
>>130mm, making that a possible at-home upgrade.
>
>
> Do you [or anyone else] know whether it's a certainty that my
> Specialized frame would have to have the rear triangle spread out? Is
> there a way that I can check this?
>
> A couple of further follow through questions:
>
> 1. If I'm understanding correctly, it seems that that if I want to use
> current production Shimano brifters, I'd have to replace everything on
> the bike except the brake calipers, but that if I go Campy, I'd get to
> keep my crankset and front derailleur. Am I interpreting this
> correctly? Sorry to be dense about this, but if I go through with
> this I want to make sure I don't have to go through too many
> iterations.
>
> 2. Looking around at component prices, and looking at what you would
> charge (which seems reasonable) for a conversion, it seems like this
> is a ca. $500 project (unless I can hunt down the questionable Shimano
> 7 speed items). I realize it's hard to make this kind of judgement,
> but is it worthwhile? In essence, I'd be spending $500 to wind up
> with used bike (which is what I paid for the bike new in 1991, FWIW).
> Is this $500 well spent, or could I get a better bike for the same
> money, say, a new Trek 1000?
>

Yes , it's relatively expensive and not probably a good
value on that bike.

Yes on everything else; Shimano STi can be set up with
"incompatible" fronts usually if it's a double, usually not
if a triple.

You might remove the rear wheel and measure it. Should be 126mm

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[JBAfromNY]

Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> JBAfromNY quoted Andy Muzi:
>
> >>Assuming the equipment is in good shape, that is, your front
> >>changer, brakes and crank are all serviceable and the bike
> >>fits, here's one upgrade path, showing all the necessary items:
> >>http://www.yellowjersey.org/ergokit.html
> >
> And re-asked:
> >
> > Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly ... This means that
> > my front derailleur, brakes calipers, and cranks are all compatible
> > with the campy levers, but that my rear derailleur and freewheel are
> > not, correct?
> >
> Andy is correct, as usual.
> >
> >>It is technically possible to get older seven speed Shimano
> >>STi shifters and a Shimano type freewheel, chain and a
> >>Shimano type rear changer ( and by that avoid replacing the
> >>rear wheel).
> >>
> >>But that would be a severely limited format and may have a
> >>hidden front shifting ( maybe a new front changer and crank
> >>with BB) expense.
> >
> > I take it this means that there's some likelihood that Shimano
> > shifters won't work with the Suntour front derailleur and the Sakae
> > crank?
> >
> Yes.
> >
> >>You'd also avoid retracking the frame to
> >>130mm, making that a possible at-home upgrade.
> >
> > Do you [or anyone else] know whether it's a certainty that my
> > Specialized frame would have to have the rear triangle spread out? Is
> > there a way that I can check this?
>
> Yes, take a ruler and measure your frame. There's an illustration of
> how to do this (as well as instructions for re-spacing the frame if
> needed) at: http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing

Thanks. I'll check it tonight
>
> > A couple of further follow through questions:
> >
> > 1. If I'm understanding correctly, it seems that that if I want to use
> > current production Shimano brifters, I'd have to replace everything on
> > the bike except the brake calipers,
>
> No.
>
> > but that if I go Campy, I'd get to
> > keep my crankset and front derailleur. Am I interpreting this
> > correctly?
>
> Yes.
>
> > Sorry to be dense about this, but if I go through with
> > this I want to make sure I don't have to go through too many
> > iterations.
> >
> Going through multiple iterations is the most cost-effective way to go.
> You don't _know_ your old crank & bb won't work 'til you try it.
> (Front derailers are so cheap that's not much of an issue.)
>
> > 2. Looking around at component prices, and looking at what you would
> > charge (which seems reasonable) for a conversion, it seems like this
> > is a ca. $500 project (unless I can hunt down the questionable Shimano
> > 7 speed items). I realize it's hard to make this kind of judgement,
> > but is it worthwhile? In essence, I'd be spending $500 to wind up
> > with used bike (which is what I paid for the bike new in 1991, FWIW).
> > Is this $500 well spent, or could I get a better bike for the same
> > money, say, a new Trek 1000?
>
> I'm afraid there's been excessive snippage from this thread, so I don't
> recall what kind of frame you've got, but if it's one of the older
> lugged steel Specialized models, it's likely very well worth fixing
> up...those were gorgeous, beautifully built frames.

I'm not sure what counts as "older" [I'm old enough to think of things
made in the '80's as newer, so ...], but the frame is a Specialized
lugged steel road frame. The frame decals say it's made from
Specialized "direct drive" double butted "racing" tubes throughout.
It also says made in Taiwan. The model is a Sirrus Triple. I bought
it in 1992, but it had been sitting in the shop for a while, so I'm
not certain what the actual production year was.

John "likes his bike, but is mindful of admonitions about silk purses
and sow's ears" Albin