Upgrading whole transmission -- confused

Brendan Halpin said:

After 20,000 kms or so I think it's about time to replace the whole
transmission on my bike. OK, chain, cassette and bottom bracket are
not original, but the chainset and derailleur are showing signs of
age.

Might not /need/ to replace all that.

Quoted message said:

Trouble is, I'm massively confused by what's on offer. "Quality" or
price level is one aspect: I could get a new chainset for the price
of a round of drinks or pay more than I spent on the bike in the
first place. Then the 7/8/9/10 break expensive chains puzzle raises
its head. I'm quite happy with my 3x7 but I see there is little
choice if I stay with 7 at the rear. Is it worth going to 9 or can
I stay at 8? I think my rather retro downtube shifter has 8 clicks.

You could stay at 7 or 8 if you like. Replacement 8-speed cassettes and
chains will be available for long enough. The chainset and mechs wouldn't
have to be "8-speed" to really work with an 8 or 7-speed system. 8sp chains
work with 7sp systems as well.

Things to think about:

Decide on a total maximum budget for upgrades, bearing in mind the cost of a
new bike.

Shifters: What kind would you like? Happy to stick with downtubies, or do
you fancy STIs?

Rear hub: Cassette or freewheel? How many sprockets can it take? What
width hub can the frame take and would it be possible/worthwhile to make it
take a wider hub if it's currently less than 135mm. Would it be worth
buying a new wheel?

Spend rest of budget on rest of components. Don't *start* by thinking about
the chainset, bottom bracket and derailleurs.

Quoted message said:

The bike (an old model Dawes Horizon, pre compact frame) came with
Acera bits, and that has been fine. What do I gain from shifting up
a notch in the Shimano hierarchy, or by going elsewhere?

Weight saving; nicer appearance; more gears; better durability with some
certain components (sometimes it's the other way round and cheap ones last
longer if they're made of steel instead of alloy).

~PB

"Brendan Halpin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Trouble is, I'm massively confused by what's on offer. "Quality" or
price level is one aspect: I could get a new chainset for the price
of a round of drinks or pay more than I spent on the bike in the
first place. Then the 7/8/9/10 break expensive chains puzzle raises
its head. I'm quite happy with my 3x7 but I see there is little
choice if I stay with 7 at the rear. Is it worth going to 9 or can
I stay at 8? I think my rather retro downtube shifter has 8 clicks.

You need to decide if you need a wide range of gears or lots of closely
spaced ones. You can get 7 speed gears which have a wider range than 9 or
10 speed sets. I went for the wider range 11-34T ones from shimano which
was much better than the standard 14-28 one - I wasn't aware just how many
ranges were available until I looked on wiggle.
--
peter

Cheap train tickets database
http://www.petereverett.co.uk/tickets/

Email sent to this address is generally deleted upon arrival
Visit website if you want to contact me

Brendan Halpin said:

After 20,000 kms or so I think it's about time to replace the whole
transmission on my bike. OK, chain, cassette and bottom bracket are
not original, but the chainset and derailleur are showing signs of
age.

Trouble is, I'm massively confused by what's on offer. "Quality" or
price level is one aspect: I could get a new chainset for the price
of a round of drinks or pay more than I spent on the bike in the
first place. Then the 7/8/9/10 break expensive chains puzzle raises
its head. I'm quite happy with my 3x7 but I see there is little
choice if I stay with 7 at the rear. Is it worth going to 9 or can
I stay at 8? I think my rather retro downtube shifter has 8 clicks.

The bike (an old model Dawes Horizon, pre compact frame) came with
Acera bits, and that has been fine. What do I gain from shifting up
a notch in the Shimano hierarchy, or by going elsewhere?

Brendan
--
Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland
Tel: w +353-61-213147 f +353-61-202569 h +353-61-338562; Room F2-025 x 3147
[email hidden] http://www.ul.ie/sociology/brendan.halpin.html

Hi,
I would go for middle of the Shimano range. Its not worth going for
the top of the range as the only thing you save is weight, and I guess
thats not impportant. Durability is about the same across the range
anyway.
I would go for a wide range on both front and back 34 to 11 on the
back. * gears is usually sufficient. If you have a front triple go
for 48 outer with 28 inner, maybe a 38/40 in the middle. If you dont
have a triple go for a compact with the inner as low as poss say a
36. You should have no problems with hills with this combo.
Keep the chain clean and get a chain checker and replacing the chain
regularly avoids unneccssary wear.

in message <[email hidden]>, Brendan Halpin

(') said:

After 20,000 kms or so I think it's about time to replace the whole
transmission on my bike. OK, chain, cassette and bottom bracket are
not original, but the chainset and derailleur are showing signs of
age.

Trouble is, I'm massively confused by what's on offer. "Quality" or
price level is one aspect: I could get a new chainset for the price
of a round of drinks or pay more than I spent on the bike in the
first place. Then the 7/8/9/10 break expensive chains puzzle raises
its head. I'm quite happy with my 3x7 but I see there is little
choice if I stay with 7 at the rear. Is it worth going to 9 or can
I stay at 8? I think my rather retro downtube shifter has 8 clicks.

The bike (an old model Dawes Horizon, pre compact frame) came with
Acera bits, and that has been fine. What do I gain from shifting up
a notch in the Shimano hierarchy, or by going elsewhere?

It seems to me it's always worth moving up the Shimano hierarchy, because
although Ultegra and DuraAce are OK, everything below that is rather [censored].
But the other questions is, do you want integrated modern shifters, or are
you happy to stick with downtube shifters? Shimano integrated shifters are
so much more expensive that you can get a complete Campag transmission of
similar quality (including shifters) for the price of the Shimano shifters
alone. On the other hand if you're happy with downtube shifters, Shimano
mechs are a lot cheaper, quality for quality, than Campag ones.

The new SRAM sets look good but are eye-wateringly expensive.

Note that your present downtube shifters are designed to pull cable for
Shimano mechs, and won't correctly index other makes. So your cheapest
option is to stick with your current shifters and go Shimano.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and I found when I looked that we had run out
of copper roove nails.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Brendan Halpin

(') said:

After 20,000 kms or so I think it's about time to replace the whole
transmission on my bike. OK, chain, cassette and bottom bracket are
not original, but the chainset and derailleur are showing signs of
age.

Trouble is, I'm massively confused by what's on offer. "Quality" or
price level is one aspect: I could get a new chainset for the price
of a round of drinks or pay more than I spent on the bike in the
first place. Then the 7/8/9/10 break expensive chains puzzle raises
its head. I'm quite happy with my 3x7 but I see there is little
choice if I stay with 7 at the rear. Is it worth going to 9 or can
I stay at 8? I think my rather retro downtube shifter has 8 clicks.

The bike (an old model Dawes Horizon, pre compact frame) came with
Acera bits, and that has been fine. What do I gain from shifting up
a notch in the Shimano hierarchy, or by going elsewhere?

It seems to me it's always worth moving up the Shimano hierarchy,
because although Ultegra and DuraAce are OK, everything below that is
rather [censored]. But the other questions is, do you want integrated
modern shifters, or are you happy to stick with downtube shifters?
Shimano integrated shifters are so much more expensive that you can
get a complete Campag transmission of similar quality (including
shifters) for the price of the Shimano shifters alone. On the other
hand if you're happy with downtube shifters, Shimano mechs are a lot
cheaper, quality for quality, than Campag ones.

There are a few other options:

Bar end shifters. Shimano pattern 8 speed readily available.

Mixture of Campag shifters and Shimano cassette/mechanisms.
Look at the "Shimergo" page on the CTC website for the introduction to what
is possible. Campag 10 speed shifters plus Shimano 8 speed transmission is
one option.
However, Campagnolo have thrown a spanner into it recently, the cheaper 2007
Ergo brake/gear levers no longer index the front shifter in the same manner
as the earlier models. So the mix/match is more complex (or you seek out
2006 and earlier Ergo levers).
Use of cable travel adjusters to achieve matching of parts. Either the JTek
Shiftmate cable pulleys, or the "hubbub" cable routing, will allow
non-standard mixtures of components.

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Simon Brooke said:

But the other questions is, do you want integrated modern shifters, or are
you happy to stick with downtube shifters?

I like downtube shifters, if only for the ability to scratch my
ankle while changing gear, but I'm tempted by those fancy fingertip
ones. More choices! "Less is more" or bling...

Brendan
--
Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland
Tel: w +353-61-213147 f +353-61-202569 h +353-61-338562; Room F2-025 x 3147
[email hidden] http://www.ul.ie/sociology/brendan.halpin.html

On 28/05/2007 10:33, Nigel Cliffe said,

Quoted message said:

Mixture of Campag shifters and Shimano cassette/mechanisms.
Look at the "Shimergo" page on the CTC website for the introduction to what
is possible. Campag 10 speed shifters plus Shimano 8 speed transmission is
one option.
However, Campagnolo have thrown a spanner into it recently, the cheaper 2007
Ergo brake/gear levers no longer index the front shifter in the same manner
as the earlier models. So the mix/match is more complex (or you seek out
2006 and earlier Ergo levers).
Use of cable travel adjusters to achieve matching of parts. Either the JTek
Shiftmate cable pulleys, or the "hubbub" cable routing, will allow
non-standard mixtures of components.

I think you might have just increased the confusion level :-)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

"Brendan Halpin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I like downtube shifters, if only for the ability to scratch my
ankle while changing gear, but I'm tempted by those fancy fingertip
ones. More choices! "Less is more" or bling...

It's a long time since I had downtube shifters, and personally I wouldn't go
back. The extra control and speed of shifting being the primary reasons. I

Jc.

Brendan Halpin said:

I'm quite happy with my 3x7 but I see there is little
choice if I stay with 7 at the rear. Is it worth going to 9 or can
I stay at 8?

Given the fuss, I'd say if you're going to get more gears you might as well
go all the way up to 10. 10 isn't greatly better than 9, but it isn't
greatly more expensive either. A Xenon groupset is a good deal:

http://www.parker-international.co.uk/ProductDetails/mcs/productID/5489

Ok, so more parts than you really need, but probably better value to get a
whole group together.

You'll probably need to respace your frame too, if it is steel. Otherwise,
you'll have to stay with 7 speeds. See here:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

Brendan Halpin said:

Simon Brooke said:

But the other questions is, do you want integrated modern shifters, or are
you happy to stick with downtube shifters?

I like downtube shifters, if only for the ability to scratch my
ankle while changing gear, but I'm tempted by those fancy fingertip
ones. More choices! "Less is more" or bling...

I have both and only much prefer the modern shifters especially in
traffic and at night. The reason I have both was the economics of
upgrading the old bike (new drive train including new rear wheel and
cold setting the frame) compared to having a new bike and keeping the
old as a "hack" bike, the new bike was not much more.

Occasionally when rinding a modern bike my hand reaches down for a lever
that is not there which is disconcerting but allows me to scratch my ankle.

--chris

Jim Higson said:

You'll probably need to respace your frame too, if it is steel. Otherwise,
you'll have to stay with 7 speeds. See here:

It looks like 130mm, so that's probably okay.

Groupsets look like a good way to go.

I presume the bottom bracket on a Dawes will have English threads...

Brendan
--
Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland
Tel: w +353-61-213147 f +353-61-202569 h +353-61-338562; Room F2-025 x 3147
[email hidden] http://www.ul.ie/sociology/brendan.halpin.html

Paul Boyd said:

On 28/05/2007 10:33, Nigel Cliffe said,

Quoted message said:

Mixture of Campag shifters and Shimano cassette/mechanisms.
Look at the "Shimergo" page on the CTC website for the introduction
to what is possible. Campag 10 speed shifters plus Shimano 8 speed
transmission is one option.
However, Campagnolo have thrown a spanner into it recently, the
cheaper 2007 Ergo brake/gear levers no longer index the front
shifter in the same manner as the earlier models. So the mix/match
is more complex (or you seek out 2006 and earlier Ergo levers).
Use of cable travel adjusters to achieve matching of parts. Either
the JTek Shiftmate cable pulleys, or the "hubbub" cable routing,
will allow non-standard mixtures of components.

I think you might have just increased the confusion level :-)

Probably true, formatting didn't help either.

However, no more than folks who use bits from one model scale in another,
then reset it all to a different gauge :-)

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Brendan Halpin said:

Groupsets look like a good way to go.

Yes, some attractive packages if I abandon the downtube shifters.
And maybe abandon the triple: a compact double (34/50) with 13/29
at the back would give me nearly the range I have with the triple
(28/38/48), from 34/29--50/13 to 28/28--48/12.

I use the granny ring so rarely that I usually find the front
derailleur won't drop to it, but when I have to use it I appreciate
it. The compact ratios bottom out at a development of 2.52 metres
rather than the 2.15 I currently have, but I can probably life
without it.

Brendan
--
Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland
Tel: w +353-61-213147 f +353-61-202569 h +353-61-338562; Room F2-025 x 3147
[email hidden] http://www.ul.ie/sociology/brendan.halpin.html

On 28/05/2007 12:39, Nigel Cliffe said,

Quoted message said:

However, no more than folks who use bits from one model scale in another,
then reset it all to a different gauge :-)

Moi??? :-)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

in message <[email hidden]>, Chris Gerhard

(') said:

Brendan Halpin said:

Simon Brooke said:

But the other questions is, do you want integrated modern shifters, or
are you happy to stick with downtube shifters?

I like downtube shifters, if only for the ability to scratch my
ankle while changing gear, but I'm tempted by those fancy fingertip
ones. More choices! "Less is more" or bling...

I have both and only much prefer the modern shifters especially in
traffic and at night. The reason I have both was the economics of
upgrading the old bike (new drive train including new rear wheel and
cold setting the frame) compared to having a new bike and keeping the
old as a "hack" bike, the new bike was not much more.

I also have both, and for the same reason. The old hack bike has a curious
mix of parts:

http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/album/kitchenpr0n/target8.html

I will put modern Campag integrated shifters on it sooner or later, because
they are a lot better - unless I replace the whole bike (seriously
thinking of getting a cross bike to use as a hack, something like the
Sprcialized Tricross).

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; making jokes about dyslexia isn't big, it isn't clever and
;; it isn't furry.

Brendan Halpin said:

Brendan Halpin said:

Groupsets look like a good way to go.

Yes, some attractive packages if I abandon the downtube shifters.
And maybe abandon the triple: a compact double (34/50) with 13/29
at the back would give me nearly the range I have with the triple
(28/38/48), from 34/29--50/13 to 28/28--48/12.

I use the granny ring so rarely that I usually find the front
derailleur won't drop to it, but when I have to use it I appreciate
it. The compact ratios bottom out at a development of 2.52 metres
rather than the 2.15 I currently have, but I can probably life
without it.

Have a think about where you "usually" cycle in the gear ranges, and whether
a compact chainset leaves you always swapping from small to big ring. If
your usual cycling gear is near that change point, you may find it easier
with a traditional triple.

(That's without the granny bottom gear, which I find useful, so have triple
50/40/30 on Campag 13-29)

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Nigel Cliffe said:

Have a think about where you "usually" cycle in the gear ranges, and whether
a compact chainset leaves you always swapping from small to big ring. If
your usual cycling gear is near that change point, you may find it easier
with a traditional triple.

On the flat I reckon I'm always in 48/(16-18-21) with 48/18
probably the default. A compact 50 will give me a similar range
depending on how the cassette goes (i.e. very close with 17-19-22,
not far off with 16-18-21).

Brendan
--
Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland
Tel: w +353-61-213147 f +353-61-202569 h +353-61-338562; Room F2-025 x 3147
[email hidden] http://www.ul.ie/sociology/brendan.halpin.html

Brendan Halpin said:

Brendan Halpin said:

Groupsets look like a good way to go.

Yes, some attractive packages if I abandon the downtube shifters.
And maybe abandon the triple: a compact double (34/50) with 13/29
at the back would give me nearly the range I have with the triple
(28/38/48), from 34/29--50/13 to 28/28--48/12.

If you wanted to stay with DT shifters you could always get the groupset and
sell the ergos on ebay. They usually fetch good money, but ergos are much
nicer than DT shifters I'd go the whole way and upgrade.

If you use ergos you'll need to pick up some cable stops to screw onto the
DT bosses. They don't come with the shifters anymore, but are a cheap item.

Quoted message said:

I use the granny ring so rarely that I usually find the front
derailleur won't drop to it, but when I have to use it I appreciate
it. The compact ratios bottom out at a development of 2.52 metres
rather than the 2.15 I currently have, but I can probably life
without it.

Consider that if you're going to 10 speeds, you can have a larger biggest
sprocket in the back than you could with 7speed while keeping the jumps
reasonable. There are probably more usable gears in a 10x2 than a 7x3 even
though they are often called "20 speed" and "21 speed".

Jim Higson said:

If you use ergos you'll need to pick up some cable stops to screw onto the
DT bosses. They don't come with the shifters anymore, but are a cheap item.

Good tip, thanks.

Brendan
--
Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland
Tel: w +353-61-213147 f +353-61-202569 h +353-61-338562; Room F2-025 x 3147
[email hidden] http://www.ul.ie/sociology/brendan.halpin.html