US Driver convicted on "black box" evidence.

"Steve Pells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Described here:

newhouse.comjensen061203.htmlOpen ↗

Briefly, the driver was shown to be lying in court, and actually hit 114 mph just before killing
two teenage girls, based on evidence from the computer that monitored his vehicle's airbag system.

Yes, that's interesting. It might not be so useful in car-cyclist collisions since it relies on the
airbag being deployed, but clearly useful corroborative evidence here in jailing someone who was
little less than a murderer by his actions - 114mph in a 30mph zone? It's sickening. Should black
box evidence be used, if available, here? Certainly in cases of death or serious injury IMO.

Rich

"Richard Goodman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Pells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Described here:

newhouse.comjensen061203.htmlOpen ↗

Briefly, the driver was shown to be lying in court, and actually hit 114 mph just before killing
two teenage girls, based on evidence from the computer that monitored his vehicle's airbag
system.

Yes, that's interesting. It might not be so useful in car-cyclist collisions since it relies on
the airbag being deployed, but clearly

useful

Quoted message said:

corroborative evidence here in jailing someone who was little less than a murderer by his actions
- 114mph in a 30mph zone? It's sickening. Should black box evidence be used, if available, here?
Certainly in cases of

death

Quoted message said:

or serious injury IMO.

From what I've read on the subject, even in a minor crash where the airbag isn't deployed, various
information is still recorded by the airbag monitor - this aids the debugging process :-) I read a
post on Slashdot who claimed this information proved he was only doing 20 in a crash when the other
bloke driver had claimed to be the slow one.

Gotta be worth a try methinks.

Thomas.

Richard Goodman said:

"Steve Pells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Described here:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

newhouse.comjensen061203.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Briefly, the driver was shown to be lying in court, and actually hit 114 mph just before killing
two teenage girls, based on evidence from the computer that monitored his vehicle's airbag
system.

Quoted message said:

Yes, that's interesting. It might not be so useful in car-cyclist collisions since it relies on the
airbag being deployed, but clearly useful corroborative evidence here in jailing someone who was
little less than a murderer by his actions - 114mph in a 30mph zone? It's sickening. Should black
box evidence be used, if available, here? Certainly in cases of death or serious injury IMO.

I join you in condemning such dangerous driving. I've never seen a 30mph zone suitable for
over 100mph, so we can assume that this was a clear case of what we call "causing death by
dangerous driving".

I hope no one suggests that speed limit enforcement could have prevented the tragedy.

Black box evidence has its uses, and I wouldn't mind a black box system fitted to cars. I'm a little
worried that air bag data recorders may not meet legal standards of evidence in terms of accuracy.
AFAIK no such devices are fitted to cars sold in the UK.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

Paul Smith said:

I hope no one suggests that speed limit enforcement could have prevented the tragedy.

I hereby suggest that speed limit enforcement could have prevented the tragedy. Had the [censored] in
question been driving at 30mph there is a far greater chance that he could have stopped, or seen the
othe rcar, or that the crash would in any case have been survivable. It is of course no surprise
that the resident troll should attempt steer the subject in the direction of his monomania, though.

I did notice that the Usual Suspects have started bleating about privacy issues. No doubt the driver
will feel terribly hard done by that his own car was used in evidence against him. Perhaps he shares
the view of those who campaign against speed enforcement and random breath testing that the
law-breaking driver must be given a sporting chance. Me, I would cut the bloke's goolies off. Mr
Larrington may advocate shooting him and burying the body - this in my view is much too kind. He
should be made to walk around for the rest of his life with "I was castrated because I am a
murdering speed freak" tattooed on his forehead. Plus he should never be allowed to drive again.

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. chapmancentral.comchapmancentral.comOpen ↗ Advance
notice: ADSL service in process of transfer to a new ISP. Obviously there will be a week of downtime
between the engineer removing the BT service and the same engineer connecting the same equipment on
the same line in the same exchange and billing it to the new ISP.

What? Are you out of you mind? if his vehicle was fitted with an automatic speed limiting device to
match the local speed limit, his victims would have been at home drinking tea, of course speed limit
enforcement could have prevented this, hey I'm all for more sensible legislation towards motorway
usage including where appropriate raising limits, but suggesting this tragedy could not have been
affected by more stringent enforcement shows you to be culpably ignorant by virtue of not wanting to
know! If you are going to campaign something you are going to need to be more credible. And this
isn't troll bashing, I don't know you and am new to this board, but your comment on speed in this
instance is possibly one of the most stupid things I have heard for a long time.

Ian

Quoted message said:

From: Paul Smith <[email hidden]> Organization: Safe Speed Reply-To:
[email hidden] Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling,uk.transport Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 21:31:17
+0100 Subject: Re: US Driver convicted on "black box" evidence.

Richard Goodman said:

"Steve Pells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Described here:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

newhouse.comjensen061203.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Briefly, the driver was shown to be lying in court, and actually hit 114 mph just before killing
two teenage girls, based on evidence from the computer that monitored his vehicle's airbag
system.

Quoted message said:

Yes, that's interesting. It might not be so useful in car-cyclist collisions since it relies on
the airbag being deployed, but clearly useful corroborative evidence here in jailing someone
who was little less than a murderer by his actions - 114mph in a 30mph zone? It's sickening.
Should black box evidence be used, if available, here? Certainly in cases of death or serious
injury IMO.

I join you in condemning such dangerous driving. I've never seen a 30mph zone suitable for over
100mph, so we can assume that this was a clear case of what we call "causing death by dangerous
driving".

I hope no one suggests that speed limit enforcement could have prevented the tragedy.

Black box evidence has its uses, and I wouldn't mind a black box system fitted to cars. I'm a
little worried that air bag data recorders may not meet legal standards of evidence in terms of
accuracy. AFAIK no such devices are fitted to cars sold in the UK.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

you know? said:

Quoted message said:

I hope no one suggests that speed limit enforcement could have prevented the tragedy.

Quoted message said:

I hereby suggest that speed limit enforcement could have prevented the tragedy.

You steaming great nit wit. Dream on!
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

Ian said:

What? Are you out of you mind? if his vehicle was fitted with an automatic speed limiting device to
match the local speed limit...

I said "speed limit enforcement". I wouldn't include a limiter in that, and even if limiters were
compulsory, who's to say that this utter utter moron wouldn't have disabled the limiter?

People will disable the limiter you know... Just the sort of people who might choose to 118mph in
town in fact.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

So would you disable the limiter if it was fitted to your car?

Ian

Quoted message said:

From: Paul Smith <[email hidden]> Organization: Safe Speed Reply-To:
[email hidden] Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling,uk.transport Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:09:37
+0100 Subject: Re: US Driver convicted on "black box" evidence.

Ian said:

What? Are you out of you mind? if his vehicle was fitted with an automatic speed limiting device
to match the local speed limit...

I said "speed limit enforcement". I wouldn't include a limiter in that, and even if limiters were
compulsory, who's to say that this utter utter moron wouldn't have disabled the limiter?

People will disable the limiter you know... Just the sort of people who might choose to 118mph in
town in fact.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

Paul Smith said:

I join you in condemning such dangerous driving. I've never seen a 30mph zone suitable for over
100mph, so we can assume that this was a clear case of what we call "causing death by dangerous
driving".

I hope no one suggests that speed limit enforcement could have prevented the tragedy.

And you're a clear case of what we call "a complete and utter tosspot", with the "brains of a gnat"
and the reasoning ability of a "slug that's so stupid it's just won a Being a Stupid Slug
competition with a special commendation for Being a Particularly Stupid Stupid Slug".

Just think, if you moved to America you could raise the average IQ of both Britain and America by at
least 50% in one fell swoop!

Tosspot.

--
Trev

Paul Smith said:

Black box evidence has its uses, and I wouldn't mind a black box system fitted to cars. I'm a
little worried that air bag data recorders may not meet legal standards of evidence in terms of
accuracy. AFAIK no such devices are fitted to cars sold in the UK.

I asked someone who knows, some equipment within the EU contain Incident Data Recorders which can
record up to 15 seconds before and 30 seconds after an incident.

The information gathered is not at this time being used by the UK police for accident
investigation purposes.

So would you disable the limiter if it was fitted to your car?

Ian

Quoted message said:

From: Paul Smith <[email hidden]> Organization: Safe Speed Reply-To:
[email hidden] Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling,uk.transport Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:09:37
+0100 Subject: Re: US Driver convicted on "black box" evidence.

Ian said:

What? Are you out of you mind? if his vehicle was fitted with an automatic speed limiting device
to match the local speed limit...

I said "speed limit enforcement". I wouldn't include a limiter in that, and even if limiters were
compulsory, who's to say that this utter utter moron wouldn't have disabled the limiter?

People will disable the limiter you know... Just the sort of people who might choose to 118mph in
town in fact.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

"Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ian said:

What? Are you out of you mind? if his vehicle was fitted with an

automatic

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

speed limiting device to match the local speed limit...

I said "speed limit enforcement". I wouldn't include a limiter in that, and even if limiters were
compulsory, who's to say that this utter utter moron wouldn't have disabled the limiter?

People will disable the limiter you know... Just the sort of people who might choose to 118mph in
town in fact.

Please, grow up and troll elsewhere - your trolls are, like, totally far-out easy to pick apart
here. I mean, you're doing everything by the book, almost as if you've been reading a
how-to-troll handbook.

E.g.

"I join you in condemning such dangerous driving. I've never seen a 30mph zone suitable for over
100mph, so we can assume that this was a clear case of what we call "causing death by dangerous
driving"."

Fair enough.

"I hope no one suggests that speed limit enforcement could have prevented the tragedy."

Aha! I see what you did there. Using a specific term and yet implying you support speeding. Fancy!

Now you move on a bit. Or forget about your original post. I wonder what's closer to the truth:

"Black box evidence has its uses, and I wouldn't mind a black box system fitted to cars. I'm a
little worried that air bag data recorders may not meet legal standards of evidence in terms of
accuracy. AFAIK no such devices are fitted to cars sold in the UK."

Eh.

"People will disable the limiter you know... Just the sort of people who might choose to 118mph in
town in fact."

Oh dear oh dear oh dear, you've rather let the side down. That's a glaringly obvious hole in your
troll, but not unexpected.

Get back to slashdot, talking about your ardent support for Open Source software, what with the
joyful Windows LAN you set up at work...

Thomas.

Ian said:

So would you disable the limiter if it was fitted to your car?

I'd have to decide after I knew the environment. Sorry. Best I can do.

I can't tell you if I would do something against a law which isn't yet drafted for example.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

Sounds very noncommittal, a bit like saying you may or may not be pro-choice on killing people by
unnecessary use of speed.

Ian

Quoted message said:

From: Paul Smith <[email hidden]> Organization: Safe Speed Reply-To:
[email hidden] Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling,uk.transport Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:34:11
+0100 Subject: Re: US Driver convicted on "black box" evidence.

Ian said:

So would you disable the limiter if it was fitted to your car?

I'd have to decide after I knew the environment. Sorry. Best I can do.

I can't tell you if I would do something against a law which isn't yet drafted for example.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

Trevor Barton said:

Quoted message said:

I join you in condemning such dangerous driving. I've never seen a 30mph zone suitable for over
100mph, so we can assume that this was a clear case of what we call "causing death by dangerous
driving".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I hope no one suggests that speed limit enforcement could have prevented the tragedy.

Quoted message said:

And you're a clear case of what we call "a complete and utter tosspot", with the "brains of a gnat"
and the reasoning ability of a "slug that's so stupid it's just won a Being a Stupid Slug
competition with a special commendation for Being a Particularly Stupid Stupid Slug".

Quoted message said:

Just think, if you moved to America you could raise the average IQ of both Britain and America by
at least 50% in one fell swoop!

LOL!
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

K Olley said:

Quoted message said:

Black box evidence has its uses, and I wouldn't mind a black box system fitted to cars. I'm a
little worried that air bag data recorders may not meet legal standards of evidence in terms of
accuracy. AFAIK no such devices are fitted to cars sold in the UK.

Quoted message said:

I asked someone who knows, some equipment within the EU contain Incident Data Recorders which can
record up to 15 seconds before and 30 seconds after an incident.

Quoted message said:

The information gathered is not at this time being used by the UK police for accident investigation
purposes.

Such black boxes are fitted to some Police cars. Not to anything on sale in showrooms.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

Ian said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So would you disable the limiter if it was fitted to your car?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd have to decide after I knew the environment. Sorry. Best I can do.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can't tell you if I would do something against a law which isn't yet drafted for example.

Quoted message said:

Sounds very noncommittal, a bit like saying you may or may not be pro-choice on killing people by
unnecessary use of speed.

There's a chap (Oliver Carsten) in Leeds trying to prove that speed limiters are a fine safety
feature. There are presently 20 limited cars with 80 drivers.

Wait and see the results of the trial (which they will blame on other vehicles).

Accidents involving the limited cars will double after the first month or two of novelty wears off
and the drivers stop taking responsibility for the speed of the vehicles.

They will drive like zombies and crash like sleepwalkers. They even proved it in simulation trials!
But that's not good enough for the very obsessed Carsten.

So, I'm strongly against speed limiters.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

Quoted message said:

They even proved it in simulation trials!

Care to back up that unsubstantiated claim?

Thomas' tom at greysheep dot co dot uk said:

Quoted message said:

They even proved it in simulation trials!

Quoted message said:

Care to back up that unsubstantiated claim?

The original report at Leeds university is now a broken link.

I have the ABDs PR on the subject here:

abd.org.uk225.htmOpen ↗

And I can personally confirm that the figures quoted are as were published by Leeds University.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives