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vegetarian wool

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
8 May 2004
Last activity
8 May 2004
Original author
Edward
Posts
28
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  1. Hello all,

    www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared from
    live sheep - it can be taken from dead sheep. Also, the
    RSPCA state that some sheep are cut without anaesthetic to
    make their skin tighter, to improve the quality of the wool.

    My vegetarian girlfriend discovered these facts after I'd
    ripped up and disposed of our old carpets. I can't lay new
    ones until she's sure they are ethically sourced. Does
    anyone know of any carpet companies (UK) that she'd
    approve of?

    I emailed vegsoc.org and they replied with:

    "Seagrass, Coir, Sisal and Jute carpets would all be OK, if
    a little hard on the knees. And I understand nylon carpets
    are not as bad as they used to be."

    I'd really like comfortable wool carpets if at all possible.

    Your help is appreciated ,

    Edward.

  2. "Edward" <egoduk@NOSPAM_hotmail.com> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Hello all,

    www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared
    from live sheep -


    it

    Quoted message said:

    can be taken from dead sheep. Also, the RSPCA state that
    some sheep are


    cut

    Quoted message said:

    without anaesthetic to make their skin tighter, to improve
    the quality of the wool.

    My vegetarian girlfriend discovered these facts after I'd
    ripped up and disposed of our old carpets. I can't lay new
    ones until she's sure they


    are

    Quoted message said:

    ethically sourced. Does anyone know of any carpet
    companies (UK) that


    she'd

    Quoted message said:

    approve of?

    don't know about the wool stuff, but if you have to go with
    synthetic, i've heard that there are a few companies making
    recycled/recyclable, more environmentally friendly carpets.

    Quoted message said:


    I emailed vegsoc.org and they replied with:

    "Seagrass, Coir, Sisal and Jute carpets would all be OK, if
    a little hard
    on the knees. And I understand nylon carpets are not as bad
    as they used


    to

    Quoted message said:

    be."

    I'd really like comfortable wool carpets if at all
    possible.

    Your help is appreciated ,

    Edward.

  3. "Edward" <egoduk@NOSPAM_hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Hello all,

    www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared
    from live sheep - it can be taken from dead sheep.

    You gotta be joking. Sure it can be done, but a sheep that
    dies from old age is as rare as rocking horse manure, a
    sheep that dies from sickness will most likely have a
    useless fleece.

    Also, the RSPCA state that some sheep are cut

    Quoted message said:

    without anaesthetic to make their skin tighter, to improve
    the quality of the wool.

    This is a joke, right? Do you have an anaesthetic when you
    have a hair cut or trim your nails? Wool is like hair, DEAD
    TISSUE. Or do you mean "cut" as castrate?

    Quoted message said:


    My vegetarian girlfriend discovered these facts after I'd
    ripped up and disposed of our old carpets. I can't lay new
    ones until she's sure they are ethically sourced. Does
    anyone know of any carpet companies (UK) that she'd
    approve of?

    I emailed vegsoc.org and they replied with:

    "Seagrass, Coir, Sisal and Jute carpets would all be OK,
    if a little hard on the knees. And I understand nylon
    carpets are not as bad as they used to be."

    I'd really like comfortable wool carpets if at all
    possible.

    Your help is appreciated ,

    Edward.

  4. Quoted message said:

    This is a joke, right? Do you have an anaesthetic when you
    have a hair cut or trim your nails? Wool is like hair,
    DEAD TISSUE. Or do you mean "cut" as castrate?

    Apparantly they are cut under their tails, the tails are
    then pulled back and stitched (without anasthetic) to make
    the pelt on their backs stand more upright. This produces a
    better quality of wool when they are sheared.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared
    from live sheep -


    it

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    can be taken from dead sheep.

    Quoted message said:

    You gotta be joking. Sure it can be done, but a sheep that
    dies from old age is as rare as rocking horse manure, a
    sheep that dies from sickness will most likely have a
    useless fleece.

    Not sure what you're going on about here. Basically, the
    majority of wool is a by-product of the meat industry. If
    farmers couldn't sell the wool as well as the meat, they'd
    have to charge more for the meat to make the same profit.
    This in turn would lead to customers being charged higher
    prices for meat, so less people would buy it. Therefore,
    buying wool makes meat cheaper.

    I'm not vegetarian, these are my girlfriends sentiments - I
    just want a wool carpet!

  5. Thanks for the reply Katie, recycled could be the way
    forward!

    "katie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    -"]news:[email hidden]-
    ers.com...

    Quoted message said:


    "Edward" <egoduk@NOSPAM_hotmail.com> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Hello all,

    www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared
    from live


    sheep -

    Quoted message said:

    it

    Quoted message said:

    can be taken from dead sheep. Also, the RSPCA state that
    some sheep are


    cut

    Quoted message said:

    without anaesthetic to make their skin tighter, to
    improve the quality


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the wool.

    My vegetarian girlfriend discovered these facts after
    I'd ripped up and disposed of our old carpets. I can't
    lay new ones until she's sure they


    are

    Quoted message said:

    ethically sourced. Does anyone know of any carpet
    companies (UK) that


    she'd

    Quoted message said:

    approve of?

    don't know about the wool stuff, but if you have to go
    with synthetic,


    i've

    Quoted message said:

    heard that there are a few companies making
    recycled/recyclable, more environmentally friendly
    carpets.

    Quoted message said:


    I emailed vegsoc.org and they replied with:

    "Seagrass, Coir, Sisal and Jute carpets would all be
    OK, if a little


    hard

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    on the knees. And I understand nylon carpets are not as
    bad as they


    used

    Quoted message said:

    to

    Quoted message said:

    be."

    I'd really like comfortable wool carpets if at all
    possible.

    Your help is appreciated ,

    Edward.


  6. "William J. Wolfe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Edward" <egoduk@NOSPAM_hotmail.com> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Hello all,

    www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared
    from live


    sheep - it

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    can be taken from dead sheep.

    You gotta be joking. Sure it can be done, but a sheep that
    dies from old age is as rare as rocking horse manure, a
    sheep that dies from sickness will most likely have a
    useless fleece.

    Also, the RSPCA state that some sheep are cut

    Quoted message said:

    without anaesthetic to make their skin tighter, to
    improve the quality


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the wool.

    This is a joke, right? Do you have an anaesthetic when you
    have a hair cut or trim your nails? Wool is like hair,
    DEAD TISSUE. Or do you mean "cut" as castrate?


    when he says 'cut', he's talking about skin, not hair : (

    "On the surface, it appears that wool is a benign product
    because, at least theoretically, it can be obtained without
    harming the sheep. However, upon closer inspection, we find
    that the wool industry is actually very similar to the egg
    and dairy industries. While animals such as laying hens,
    dairy cows, and wool-bearing sheep are not immediately
    killed to procure their salable products, they suffer
    tremendously for years prior to their ultimate and
    unavoidable slaughter. Most people believe that sheep are
    overburdened with too much wool and therefore need to be
    shorn. Although today's wool-bearing sheep have thick, heavy
    coats, it is the result of selective breeding over thousands
    of years. These animals are descended from wild mountain
    sheep, still found in some remote regions of the world,
    which shed their fine woolly hair naturally. Wool provides
    sheep with warmth and protection from inclement weather and
    sunburn. Because our "modern" wool-bearers are extremely
    vulnerable to the elements without their wool, many sheep
    die of exposure shortly after being denuded.

    From the earliest of times there was complicity in the use
    of wool. Merinos, which were originally from Spain, are the
    most efficient wool producers. Mutton breeds, which
    primarily originated in England, are used predominately for
    meat. Cross-breeds are raised for the dual purpose of meat
    and wool. Nevertheless, Merinos also yield mutton and mutton
    breeds also yield wool. No sheep escapes either function; it
    is just a matter of emphasis. Essentially, all wool is a
    slaughterhouse product.

    Wool is classed as either "shorn wool," that which is shorn
    from sheep annually, or "pulled wool," that which is taken
    from sheep at the time of slaughter. Horrors abound on sheep
    farms, including mutilating, painful surgical procedures
    that are performed without anesthesia. These entail
    mulesing, the cutting of large strips of flesh off the hind
    legs to reduce fly problems, and tail docking, designed to
    preserve the salable condition of wool surrounding a sheep's
    anus, among others. A large percentage of the world's wool
    is produced from Merinos exported from Australia. These
    sheep are crammed onto ships by the tens of thousands,
    crowded into filthy pens, and packed so tightly they can
    barely move. As a result, thousands of sheep die each year
    from suffocation, trampling, or starvation.

    Sheep shearers are paid by piece rate, meaning that speed
    not precision guides the process. Consequently, most sheep
    are roughly handled, lacerated, and injured during the
    process. The production of wool, as with all industries
    that consider animals as mere commodities, is rife with
    cruelty and abuse. In addition, the purchase of wool
    supports the continual slaughter of millions of lambs and
    sheep each year."

    "In the U.S., most wool comes from either domestically
    raised sheep or sheep raised in Australia and New Zealand
    (American Sheep Industry Association). Sheep raised for wool
    are bred to have lambs who are sent to slaughter; sheep
    whose wool / lamb production has started to decline are also
    slaughtered (SFAP, 1998). Over 500,000 sheep and lambs in
    the U.S. died from predation in 1994 (USDA). In turn, sheep
    ranchers kill predators such as coyotes. Sheep and lambs are
    subjected to harsh weather conditions, with over 100,000
    dying from weather-related causes in 1994 (USDA). The Model
    Code of Practice for the Welfare of Animals for Australia &
    New Zealand (1995) allows for tail docking, castration, and
    surgical removal of skin folds without anesthesia. Shearing
    sheep causes bruising and cuts (Agriculture Western
    Australia, 1997)."

  7. "katie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Edward" <egoduk@NOSPAM_hotmail.com> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Hello all,

    www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared
    from live


    sheep -

    Quoted message said:

    it

    Quoted message said:

    can be taken from dead sheep. Also, the RSPCA state that
    some sheep are


    cut

    Quoted message said:

    without anaesthetic to make their skin tighter, to
    improve the quality


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the wool.

    My vegetarian girlfriend discovered these facts after
    I'd ripped up and disposed of our old carpets. I can't
    lay new ones until she's sure they


    are

    Quoted message said:

    ethically sourced. Does anyone know of any carpet
    companies (UK) that


    she'd

    Quoted message said:

    approve of?

    You should never have ripped up your old carpets. The
    carpets were doing no further harm to the sheep they came
    from, and now you're going to have to expend more resources
    in order to get another one. There's no need to throw out
    all your leather items, or fur items, etc. either. Keep
    using them. It causes more resources to be saved in the long
    run. Using things as long as possible is ecologically sound.
    Throwing out all your animal-derived belongings and getting
    new "vegetarian" ones is wasteful and uses extra resources.
    Use the non-veg ones you already have until they wear out,
    then get other things that come from a more "ethical" source
    to replace them.

    -Rubystars

  8. "Edward" <egoduk@NOSPAM_hotmail.com> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Not sure what you're going on about here. Basically, the
    majority of wool


    is

    Quoted message said:

    a by-product of the meat industry. If farmers couldn't
    sell the wool as


    well

    Quoted message said:

    as the meat, they'd have to charge more for the meat to
    make the same profit. This in turn would lead to customers
    being charged higher prices


    for

    Quoted message said:

    meat, so less people would buy it. Therefore, buying wool
    makes meat cheaper.

    Are you sure you're not thinking of leather?

  9. "Edward" <egoduk@NOSPAM_hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This is a joke, right? Do you have an anaesthetic when
    you have a hair cut or trim your nails? Wool is like
    hair, DEAD TISSUE. Or do you mean "cut" as castrate?

    Apparantly they are cut under their tails, the tails are
    then pulled back and stitched (without anasthetic) to make
    the pelt on their backs stand more upright. This produces
    a better quality of wool when they are sheared.

    Sounds like crutching, a process where a small piece of wool
    and skin is removed from under the sheep's [censored] so as to
    leave a wool free area to prevent dung fron sticking to
    wool. It has absolutely no affect on wool quality.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared
    from live sheep -


    it

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    can be taken from dead sheep.

    Quoted message said:

    You gotta be joking. Sure it can be done, but a sheep
    that dies from old age is as rare as rocking horse
    manure, a sheep that dies from sickness will most likely
    have a useless fleece.

    Not sure what you're going on about here. Basically, the
    majority of wool is a by-product of the meat industry.

    Not in my part of the world it isn't I grew up on four
    million acres of Australian sheep station. We grew sheep for
    wool, the fine wool used for clothing.

    If farmers couldn't sell the wool as well

    Quoted message said:

    as the meat, they'd have to charge more for the meat to
    make the same profit. This in turn would lead to customers
    being charged higher prices for meat, so less people would
    buy it. Therefore, buying wool makes meat cheaper.

    Depends on the wool. Australian merinos grow wool that
    in some cases is finer than human hair. Then there are
    the sheep that grow coarse wool that is only suitable
    for carpets.

    Quoted message said:


    I'm not vegetarian, these are my girlfriends sentiments -
    I just want a wool carpet!

    A sensible idea. Synthetic carpets are great for growing
    static eletetricity charges on moving humans. My
    preferred choice for floor is polished timber. Of course
    lazy housekeepers hate wood floors, there is no carpet to
    hide the dust.

  10. "Rubystars" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "katie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    -"]news:[email hidden]-
    s.com...

    Quoted message said:


    "Edward" <egoduk@NOSPAM_hotmail.com> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Hello all,

    www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always
    sheared from live


    sheep -

    Quoted message said:

    it

    Quoted message said:

    can be taken from dead sheep. Also, the RSPCA state
    that some sheep


    are

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    cut

    Quoted message said:

    without anaesthetic to make their skin tighter, to
    improve the quality


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the wool.

    My vegetarian girlfriend discovered these facts after
    I'd ripped up


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    disposed of our old carpets. I can't lay new ones
    until she's sure


    they

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    are

    Quoted message said:

    ethically sourced. Does anyone know of any carpet
    companies (UK) that


    she'd

    Quoted message said:

    approve of?

    You should never have ripped up your old carpets. The
    carpets were doing


    no

    Quoted message said:

    further harm to the sheep they came from, and now you're
    going to have to expend more resources in order to get
    another one. There's no need to


    throw

    Quoted message said:

    out all your leather items, or fur items, etc. either.
    Keep using them. It causes more resources to be saved in
    the long run. Using things as long as possible is
    ecologically sound. Throwing out all your animal-derived
    belongings and getting new "vegetarian" ones is wasteful
    and uses extra resources. Use the non-veg ones you already
    have until they wear out, then get other things that come
    from a more "ethical" source to replace them.

    -Rubystars


    i think the guy ripped out the carpets for decorating
    reasons, from the sounds of it, since he isn't a vegetarian.
    maybe they were old and gross, or just a horrendous 70s
    colour scheme. sounds like the ethics came in from the gf
    after they had already ripped stuff out, and then he's like
    well hell, what do we put in now? i vote wood. easier to
    clean. and looks so toasty and warm. less sneezes, too. or,
    in my house we have this stuff that's really easy to install
    yourself. it's a kind of fake wood that's so tough you can
    even light stuff on fire on it, and the black just rubs
    right off. it looks nice enough, but it'll last forever and
    is probably cheaper than wood, if that's an issue. btw, i
    totally agree with you on the using things until they're
    worn out thing. some folks feel so guilty that they can't
    bear to even have the stuff on them, or they want to make a
    completely fresh, fully vegan start. but the thing's already
    dead and on your feet or whatnot, right? better to conserve
    resources, since most materials aren't environmentally
    friendly at all (ie treated leathers or synthetics, even
    cottons). cause polluting hurts you and your animal friends.

  11. "Edward" <egoduk@NOSPAM_hotmail.com> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]... [..]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared
    from live sheep - it can be taken from dead sheep.

    It can be and is taken from sheep that are yet to born, too.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You gotta be joking. Sure it can be done, but a sheep
    that dies from old age is as rare as rocking horse
    manure, a sheep that dies from sickness will most likely
    have a useless fleece.

    Not sure what you're going on about here. Basically, the
    majority of wool is a by-product of the meat industry.

    An exception to this would be karakul lamb fur; [In March
    2000, HSUS investigators touring the farm near Bukhara found
    that pregnant ewes are in fact routinely slaughtered for
    these fetal pelts. Graphic videotape shot at the farm shows
    a pregnant ewe held down, her throat slit and her stomach
    slashed wide so that a worker could remove the developing
    fetus-the "raw material" for coats, vests, and other
    broadtail fashions. What's more, contrary to the industry's
    claims that karakul lamb fur is merely a byproduct of meat
    production, HSUS investigators videotaped newborn lambs
    displayed as "samples" of pelt colors before being sent to
    their death. The pelts were saved, the tiny carcasses
    discarded as trash.] hsus.org12046

  12. "katie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "William J. Wolfe" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Edward" <egoduk@NOSPAM_hotmail.com> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Hello all,

    www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always
    sheared from live


    sheep - it

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    can be taken from dead sheep.

    You gotta be joking. Sure it can be done, but a sheep
    that dies from old age is as rare as rocking horse
    manure, a sheep that dies from sickness will most likely
    have a useless fleece.

    Also, the RSPCA state that some sheep are cut

    Quoted message said:

    without anaesthetic to make their skin tighter, to
    improve the quality


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the wool.

    This is a joke, right? Do you have an anaesthetic when
    you have a hair cut or trim your nails? Wool is like
    hair, DEAD TISSUE. Or do you mean "cut" as castrate?


    when he says 'cut', he's talking about skin, not hair : (

    "On the surface, it appears that wool is a benign product
    because, at least theoretically, it can be obtained
    without harming the sheep.

    Sheep are shorn without doing any harm to sheep. Its the
    equivalent of a human having a hair cut.

    However, upon

    Quoted message said:

    closer inspection, we find that the wool industry is
    actually very similar to the egg and dairy industries.
    While animals such as laying hens, dairy cows, and wool-
    bearing sheep are not immediately killed to procure their
    salable products, they suffer tremendously for years prior
    to their ultimate and unavoidable slaughter.

    Sheep do not suffer, nor do dairy cows, and especially dairy
    cows. Stressed dairy cows do not produce milk in the same
    quantity as when they are unstressd.

    Let me give you a short lesson on animals and stress. I eat
    meat, ie, animal muscle tissue, white meat, fish, sheep,
    pig, kangaroo and deer. Right now I have five young pigs in
    a pen. These are feral pigs, caught after their mother was
    shot. They were making a war zone in a cane farm. Feral pigs
    can also spread disease among domestic livestock.

    So now there are five orphan pigs growing fat under my care.
    When I bought these future pork dinners home I enclosed them
    in a pen until for a week until they settled into their new
    home. They now have fresh water, shelter, food and ten acres
    to roam in. One pig decided to be a trouble maker, for the
    first four days running like a lunatic all around the pen,
    stesing himself crazy. I had thought he would die of shock
    but now he is feeding well and growing. The point is that,
    in spite of the animal welfare fairy tales, animals under
    strees do not give their best in producing milk, eggs, or
    growth. If I kept these pigs in cramped unclean conditions
    they would be susceptible to disease, they could suffer from
    pneumonia, they woulf have mineral and vitamin deficiencies,
    just as do humans who live in less than ideal conditions.

    Quoted message said:

    Most people believe that sheep are overburdened with too
    much wool and therefore need to be shorn. Although today's
    wool-bearing sheep have thick, heavy coats, it is the
    result of selective breeding over thousands of years.
    These animals are descended from wild mountain sheep,
    still found in some remote regions of the world, which
    shed their fine woolly hair naturally. Wool provides sheep
    with warmth and protection from inclement weather and
    sunburn. Because our "modern" wool-bearers are extremely
    vulnerable to the elements without their wool, many sheep
    die of exposure shortly after being denuded.

    Which can happen if sheep are shorn at the wrong time of
    year, also Merino sheep do not like having thich fleeces
    soaked with rain.

    Quoted message said:


    From the earliest of times there was complicity in the use
    of wool. Merinos, which were originally from Spain, are
    the most efficient wool producers. Mutton breeds, which
    primarily originated in England, are used predominately
    for meat. Cross-breeds are raised for the dual purpose of
    meat and wool.

    Cross breeds, like most compromises, do neither very well.

    Quoted message said:

    Nevertheless, Merinos also yield mutton and mutton breeds
    also yield wool. No sheep escapes either function; it is
    just a matter of emphasis. Essentially, all wool is a
    slaughterhouse product.

    Yep, and sold as lambswool, wool with tanned sheep hide.

    Quoted message said:


    Wool is classed as either "shorn wool," that which is
    shorn from sheep annually, or "pulled wool," that which is
    taken from sheep at the time of slaughter. Horrors abound
    on sheep farms, including mutilating, painful surgical
    procedures that are performed without anesthesia. These
    entail mulesing, the cutting of large strips of flesh off
    the hind legs to reduce fly problems, and tail docking,
    designed to preserve the salable condition of wool
    surrounding a sheep's anus, among others.

    Removing wool bearing skin from around the sheep's bum
    prevents a number of life threatening problems. Sheep dung
    soaked into wool attracts blow flies which lay eggs in the
    [censored] wool. There is nothing more sickening than a blow fly
    struck animal about to die.

    A large percentage of the

    Quoted message said:

    world's wool is produced from Merinos exported from
    Australia.

    Actually, bugger all comes from exported Australian sheep.

    These sheep

    Quoted message said:

    are crammed onto ships by the tens of thousands, crowded
    into filthy pens, and packed so tightly they can barely
    move. As a result, thousands of sheep die each year from
    suffocation, trampling, or starvation.

    What you have is a distorted partial truth. You really do
    need to make sure you have the full story here. The reality
    is that middle eastern countries buy Austrlian sheep for
    food. They are transported to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia for
    slaughter. Once the animals have left the Australian farm
    the Austraian farmer is not in any way responsible for what
    happens to the animals, in the same way that general Motors
    is not in any way responsible for the way you drive one of
    their vehicles after you buy it.

    Quoted message said:


    Sheep shearers are paid by piece rate, meaning that speed
    not precision guides the process.

    Actually, if you don't manage to get your act together and
    shear with speed AND precision, you don't shear at all.

    Consequently, most sheep are roughly handled,

    Bullsit. Rough handled animals panic, stress and are bloody
    hard to control.

    lacerated,

    Quoted message said:

    and injured during the process.

    No they aren't. You start chopping holes in stud Merino rams
    and you kiss godd-bye to your pay cheque and your future
    shearing contracts.

    The production of wool, as with all

    Quoted message said:

    industries that consider animals as mere commodities, is
    rife with cruelty and abuse. In addition, the purchase of
    wool supports the continual slaughter of millions of lambs
    and sheep each year."

    "In the U.S., most wool comes from either domestically
    raised sheep or sheep raised in Australia and New Zealand
    (American Sheep Industry Association). Sheep raised for
    wool are bred to have lambs who are sent to slaughter;

    Not necessarily true. When you mate two stud Merinos you
    aren't going to send a potential future prise stud to the
    lamb chop factory.

    Quoted message said:

    sheep whose wool / lamb production has started to decline
    are also slaughtered (SFAP, 1998). Over 500,000 sheep and
    lambs in the U.S. died from predation in 1994 (USDA). In
    turn, sheep ranchers kill predators such as coyotes.
    Sheep and lambs are subjected to harsh weather
    conditions, with over 100,000 dying from weather-related
    causes in 1994 (USDA).

    You Americans need to learn how to look after valuable
    animals.

    The Model

    Quoted message said:

    Code of Practice for the Welfare of Animals for Australia
    & New Zealand (1995) allows for tail docking, castration,
    and surgical removal of skin folds without anesthesia.

    All farm animals are denutted without anaesthesia. If you
    feel the need to feel shock at the tohought of this,
    remember how you gently handled yourself the last time you
    did yourself an injury. Pain is a way of telling you to be
    gentle with yourself.

    Shearing sheep causes bruising and cuts

    Quoted message said:

    (Agriculture Western Australia, 1997)."

    yeah, and sometimes the sheep leave teh shed with a few
    blade cuts as well. Bruised shearers learn to avoid
    flying hooves.

  13. "katie" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message .-"]news:[email hidden].-
    rogers.com... [..]

    Quoted message said:

    i think the guy ripped out the carpets for decorating
    reasons, from the sounds of it, since he isn't a
    vegetarian. maybe they were old and gross, or just a
    horrendous 70s colour scheme. sounds like the ethics came
    in from the gf after they had already ripped stuff out,
    and then he's like well hell, what do we put in now? i
    vote wood. easier to clean. and looks so toasty and warm.
    less sneezes, too. or, in my house we have this stuff
    that's really easy to install yourself. it's a kind of
    fake wood that's so tough you can even light stuff on fire
    on it, and the black just rubs right off. it looks nice
    enough, but it'll last forever and is probably cheaper
    than wood, if that's an issue.

    I hate the stuff, but more to the point, my dog hates it
    even more than I do. He can't run on it. That's a cert, and
    the most maddening thing of all is that he can't even sit on
    it because his backside slides away from his front legs when
    he tries. I'll stick with carpets for the home and wooden
    flooring for offices and dental practices.

  14. "katie" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    i think the guy ripped out the carpets for
    decorating reasons, from the sounds of it, since he
    isn't a vegetarian. maybe they were old and gross,
    or just a horrendous 70s colour scheme. sounds like
    the ethics came in


    from

    Quoted message said:

    the gf after they had already ripped stuff out, and then
    he's like well hell, what do we put in now?

    Good question. 🙁

    Quoted message said:

    i vote wood. easier to clean. and looks so toasty and
    warm. less


    sneezes,

    Quoted message said:

    too.

    Well even if they had a wooden floor, they'd probably
    want to put a throw rug down. Anyway, isn't wood even
    harder on animals?

    There are probably some exceptions and wood that comes from
    pre-planted tree farms that were there for that very
    purpose, but deforestation isn't really a picnic for
    wildlife either. I hate to sound like one of those people
    who are always talking about CDs, but well, I think in this
    case it might apply.

    Quoted message said:

    or, in my house we have this stuff that's really easy to
    install yourself. it's a kind of fake wood that's so tough
    you can even light


    stuff

    Quoted message said:

    on fire on it, and the black just rubs right off. it looks
    nice enough,


    but

    Quoted message said:

    it'll last forever and is probably cheaper than wood, if
    that's an issue.

    If it's long lasting that would be great. 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    btw, i totally agree with you on the using things
    until they're worn out thing. some folks feel so
    guilty that they can't bear to even have the stuff on
    them, or they want to make a completely fresh, fully
    vegan start. but the thing's already dead and on your
    feet or whatnot, right?

    Yeah exactly. If they really can't bear it, they should at
    least donate the leather clothes and stuff to someone who
    needs clothes so that they can be recycled.

    Quoted message said:

    better to conserve resources, since most materials aren't
    environmentally friendly


    at

    Quoted message said:

    all (ie treated leathers or synthetics, even cottons).
    cause polluting hurts you and your animal friends.

    True.

    -Rubystars

  15. "Rubystars" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "katie" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    i think the guy ripped out the carpets for decorating
    reasons, from the sounds of it, since he isn't a
    vegetarian. maybe they were old and


    gross,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    or just a horrendous 70s colour scheme. sounds like the
    ethics came in


    from

    Quoted message said:

    the gf after they had already ripped stuff out, and then
    he's like well hell, what do we put in now?

    Good question. 🙁

    Quoted message said:

    i vote wood. easier to clean. and looks so toasty and
    warm. less


    sneezes,

    Quoted message said:

    too.

    Well even if they had a wooden floor, they'd probably want
    to put a throw rug down. Anyway, isn't wood even harder on
    animals?

    There are probably some exceptions and wood that comes
    from pre-planted


    tree

    Quoted message said:

    farms that were there for that very purpose, but
    deforestation isn't


    really

    Quoted message said:

    a picnic for wildlife either. I hate to sound like one of
    those people who are always talking about CDs, but well, I
    think in this case it might


    apply.

    Quoted message said:


    this is one of those things that i just don't know. i mean,
    there aren't exactly comparative CD tables around. sheep are
    raised in pastures, right? weren't pastures forests once,
    that were cut down? cause i don't think that nature usually
    comes in tree-fenced square patches. although, i don't know
    how they do things with sheep, so maybe the environment over
    there was in that stage of growth. who knows? not me.
    clearcutting is definitely bad, in lots of ways. when i was
    hiking in the bc mountains, i looked out onto the scenery,
    and was horrified to see massive clearcut patches. it was so
    sad. i think the best way to go is selective forestry, that
    only takes certain trees instead of taking everything. but
    as a consumer, how can you tell? often, it's hard to find
    any kind of product with how it's made listed. hopefully, by
    the time that i have a house to do flooring in, things will
    be more clear/available in that respect. cause carpet isn't
    even an option for me, unless i want to live with an ever-
    sneeze. looks like tile/laminate/wood/wood-imitations are
    what i've got to choose from.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    or, in my house we have this stuff that's really easy to
    install yourself. it's a kind of fake wood that's so
    tough you can even light


    stuff

    Quoted message said:

    on fire on it, and the black just rubs right off. it
    looks nice enough,


    but

    Quoted message said:

    it'll last forever and is probably cheaper than wood, if
    that's an


    issue.

    Quoted message said:


    If it's long lasting that would be great. 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    btw, i totally agree with you on the using things until
    they're worn out thing. some folks feel so guilty that
    they can't bear to even have the stuff on them, or they
    want to make a completely fresh, fully vegan


    start.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    but the thing's already dead and on your feet or
    whatnot, right?

    Yeah exactly. If they really can't bear it, they should at
    least donate


    the

    Quoted message said:

    leather clothes and stuff to someone who needs clothes so
    that they can be recycled.

    for sure. and you get flack when you wear leather shoes as a
    vegan. but i'm not about to ditch perfectly useful shoes
    just so i 'feel better' and avoid being challenged so much.
    i mean, you can donate jackets and stuff, but most folks
    won't buy used shoes, i think, since they aren't usually too
    good for your feet (when they've molded to someone else's)

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    better to conserve resources, since most materials aren't
    environmentally friendly


    at

    Quoted message said:

    all (ie treated leathers or synthetics, even cottons).
    cause polluting hurts you and your animal friends.

    True.

    -Rubystars

  16. "katie" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    this is one of those things that i just don't know. i
    mean, there aren't exactly comparative CD tables around.
    sheep are raised in pastures,


    right?

    Quoted message said:

    weren't pastures forests once, that were cut down? cause i
    don't think


    that

    Quoted message said:

    nature usually comes in tree-fenced square patches.
    although, i don't


    know

    Quoted message said:

    how they do things with sheep, so maybe the environment
    over there was in that stage of growth. who knows? not me.
    clearcutting is definitely


    bad,

    Quoted message said:

    in lots of ways. when i was hiking in the bc mountains,
    i looked out onto the scenery, and was horrified to see
    massive clearcut patches. it was so sad. i think the
    best way to go is selective forestry, that only takes
    certain trees instead of taking everything. but as a
    consumer, how can


    you

    Quoted message said:

    tell? often, it's hard to find any kind of product with
    how it's made listed. hopefully, by the time that i have a
    house to do flooring in, things will be more
    clear/available in that respect. cause carpet isn't even
    an option for me, unless i want to live with an ever-
    sneeze. looks like tile/laminate/wood/wood-imitations are
    what i've got to choose from.

    Yeah I know what you mean. I don't have a problem with
    buying wood, but I wouldn't buy redwood, or wood that I
    *knew* came from clear cutting. Most of the time it's hard
    to tell, and I don't worry about it. Why stress over the
    small stuff anyway?

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    for sure. and you get flack when you wear leather shoes
    as a vegan. but i'm not about to ditch perfectly useful
    shoes just so i 'feel better' and avoid being challenged
    so much. i mean, you can donate jackets and stuff, but
    most folks won't buy used shoes, i think, since they
    aren't usually


    too

    Quoted message said:

    good for your feet (when they've molded to someone else's)

    Good point about the shoes. *L*

    -Rubystars

  17. "katie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Rubystars" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "katie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    i think the guy ripped out the carpets for decorating
    reasons, from the sounds of it, since he isn't a
    vegetarian. maybe they were old and gross, or just a
    horrendous 70s colour scheme. sounds like the ethics
    came in from the gf after they had already ripped
    stuff out, and then he's like well hell, what do we
    put in now?

    Good question. 🙁

    Quoted message said:

    i vote wood. easier to clean. and looks so toasty and
    warm. less sneezes, too.

    Well even if they had a wooden floor, they'd probably
    want to put a throw rug down. Anyway, isn't wood even
    harder on animals?

    There are probably some exceptions and wood that comes
    from pre-planted tree farms that were there for that
    very purpose, but deforestation isn't really a picnic
    for wildlife either. I hate to sound like one of those
    people who are always talking about CDs, but well, I
    think in this case it might apply.


    this is one of those things that i just don't know. i
    mean, there aren't exactly comparative CD tables around.
    sheep are raised in pastures, right? weren't pastures
    forests once, that were cut down? cause i don't think that
    nature usually comes in tree-fenced square patches.
    although, i don't know how they do things with sheep, so
    maybe the environment over there was in that stage of
    growth. who knows? not me. clearcutting is definitely bad,
    in lots of ways. when i was hiking in the bc mountains, i
    looked out onto the scenery, and was horrified to see
    massive clearcut patches. it was so sad. i think the best
    way to go is selective forestry, that only takes certain
    trees instead of taking everything. but as a consumer, how
    can you tell? often, it's hard to find any kind of product
    with how it's made listed. hopefully, by the time that i
    have a house to do flooring in, things will be more
    clear/available in that respect. cause carpet isn't even
    an option for me, unless i want to live with an ever-
    sneeze. looks like tile/laminate/wood/wood-imitations are
    what i've got to choose from.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    or, in my house we have this stuff that's really easy
    to install yourself. it's a kind of fake wood that's so
    tough you can even light stuff on fire on it, and the
    black just rubs right off. it looks nice enough, but
    it'll last forever and is probably cheaper than wood,
    if that's an issue.

    If it's long lasting that would be great. 🙂

    Use rugs or carpets made from Hemp? google.iesearch
    8&q=hemp+rugs&meta=

    The Weed That Could Change The World
    rense.comcould.htm

    See also; rense.comhempdat.htm

  18. katie wrote: <...>

    Quoted message said:

    this is one of those things that i just don't know. i
    mean, there aren't exactly comparative CD tables around.
    sheep are raised in pastures, right?

    Yep.

    Quoted message said:

    weren't pastures forests once, that were cut down?

    Not necessarily. Most pasture land is in the prairies, and
    prairieland is characterized by abundance of grasses.
    Prairies contain stands of trees, but not nearly in the
    density (or types) found in forests.

    Quoted message said:

    cause i don't think that nature usually comes in tree-
    fenced square patches. although, i don't know how they do
    things with sheep, so maybe the environment over there was
    in that stage of growth. who knows? not me.

    On that point, we agree.

    Quoted message said:

    clearcutting is definitely bad,

    It may be unaesthetic, but wood is a renewable resource.

    Quoted message said:

    in lots of ways. when i was hiking in the bc mountains, i
    looked out onto the scenery, and was horrified to see
    massive clearcut patches. it was so sad. i think the best
    way to go is selective forestry, that only takes certain
    trees instead of taking everything.

    Most timber companies engage in such practices in old-
    growth forests.

    Quoted message said:

    but as a consumer, how can you tell?

    Companies make a point of marketing products made of
    sustainable products, like selectively forested timber or
    even recycled wood.

    Quoted message said:

    often, it's hard to find any kind of product with how it's
    made listed.

    Not really.

    Quoted message said:

    hopefully, by the time that i have a house to do flooring
    in, things will be more clear/available in that respect.
    cause carpet isn't even an option for me, unless i want to
    live with an ever-sneeze. looks like tile/laminate/wood/wood-
    imitations are what i've got to choose from.

    You can use sustainable woods for flooring. Several flooring
    companies specialize in dismantling old buildings (and
    homes) to salvage timbers than can be milled into flooring
    or other products. Also, bamboo flooring is a very
    sustainable product with a pleasant aesthetic. Bamboo grows
    quickly and prolificly. It's a grass, after all, not a tree.
    It's the only timber product *I* would buy from third-world
    countries.

    bamboo-flooring.comindex.asp
    teragren.comteragren.asp
    woodfloorsonline.combamboo.html

    <...>

    Quoted message said:

    for sure. and you get flack when you wear leather shoes as
    a vegan. but i'm not about to ditch perfectly useful shoes
    just so i 'feel better' and avoid being challenged so
    much. i mean, you can donate jackets and stuff, but most
    folks won't buy used shoes, i think, since they aren't
    usually too good for your feet (when they've molded to
    someone else's)

    Leather is one of the most bogus issues in veganism. Cows
    don't need it after they die regardless of how they die.
    Don't let other people judge you in your food or attire. And
    don't judge others on such frivolous measures, either.

    <...

  19. Rubystars wrote: <...>

    Quoted message said:

    Yeah I know what you mean. I don't have a problem with
    buying wood, but I wouldn't buy redwood,

    Much of the redwood sold today is from selective timbering,
    second-growth, and salvaging of fallen trees. Salvaged
    redwood is widely available.

    bearcreeklumber.comrecycle
    dsust.html

    <...

  20. thanks for the links and info. never thought about bamboo,
    i'll check it out. it'll be a long time before i am able to
    build my own eco-house, but in the meantime, i'm trying to
    learn all i can about sustainable building materials. i'm
    putting together a file with all the cool stuff i've come
    across. stuff like straw bale, recycled shingles, anaerobic
    digesters, greywater, composting toilets, solar & wind
    stuff, etc. love this stuff!

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