water in frame

$850? 'R you sure it's not walmart [censored] with a bike shop price tag?

"Dan Pavlica" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I wanted to know if anyone else experienced the following, and what to
do about it: I got a brand new $850 road bike with shimano 105
components from a bike shop, not some walmart [censored], and I recently
discovered that, when riding in the rain, my frame fills up with
water. There are two tiny holes on the bottom flat bars. I don't know
the exact technical name for these bars, but they are the bars that
run about parallel to the ground from the crankcase to the rear hub.
When I ride in the rain and then tip my bicycle in a certain way, I
see water running out of those little holes. I bet my crankcase fills
up with water too, and that can't be good. I am almost 100% sure that
those little holes are not the entry points for all that water that
pours out of them (they are in the back and kind of tucked in, nothing
sprays directly into them.)

Should this be happening? Should my frame be filling with water? How
bad is that for the crankcase, etc? Don't tell me to simply stay out
of the rain - I never plan on riding in the rain, it just works out
that way sometimes.

"Dan Pavlica" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I wanted to know if anyone else experienced the following, and what to
do about it: I got a brand new $850 road bike with shimano 105
components from a bike shop, not some walmart [censored], and I recently
discovered that, when riding in the rain, my frame fills up with
water. There are two tiny holes on the bottom flat bars. I don't know
the exact technical name for these bars, but they are the bars that
run about parallel to the ground from the crankcase to the rear hub.
When I ride in the rain and then tip my bicycle in a certain way, I
see water running out of those little holes. I bet my crankcase fills
up with water too, and that can't be good. I am almost 100% sure that
those little holes are not the entry points for all that water that
pours out of them (they are in the back and kind of tucked in, nothing
sprays directly into them.)

Should this be happening? Should my frame be filling with water? How
bad is that for the crankcase, etc? Don't tell me to simply stay out
of the rain - I never plan on riding in the rain, it just works out
that way sometimes.

Water in the frame is not at all uncommon. If taken care of promptly it's
not a big deal. But if left untreated it can lead to a whole host of
problems.

Most likely the water is entering at the seat/seat tube junction. Make sure
your seat post is greased, most any grease will do. The holes in your
chainstays (bottom flat bars) are vent holes and should be left open. If you
remove your seat and turn the bike upside down the water will drain out
nicely. For preventative measures I would tell you to do two things. First
treat the inside of your frame with a product called FrameSaver, a spray-in
rust preventative. It's commonly available at bike shops (if they don't have
it, they can get it easily) Second, drill a hole (about 3/8"😉 on the very
bottom of the bottom bracket (crankcase) This will allow accumulated water
to drain out.

You sound as if you are new to bikes. If that's the case, and you don't feel
comfortable about drilling holes and spraying chemicals in your frame, seek
the help/advice of your bike shop. Both of my suggestions are easy to do but
require a little expertise and care.

Dave Thompson said:

snip snip
For preventative measures I would
tell you to do two things. First treat the inside of your frame with
a product called FrameSaver, a spray-in rust preventative. It's
commonly available at bike shops (if they don't have it, they can get
it easily) Second, drill a hole (about 3/8"😉 on the very bottom of
the bottom bracket (crankcase) This will allow accumulated water to
drain out.

Would your advice apply on other frames than steel?

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dave Thompson said:

snip snip
For preventative measures I would
tell you to do two things. First treat the inside of your frame with
a product called FrameSaver, a spray-in rust preventative. It's
commonly available at bike shops (if they don't have it, they can get
it easily) Second, drill a hole (about 3/8"😉 on the very bottom of
the bottom bracket (crankcase) This will allow accumulated water to
drain out.

Would your advice apply on other frames than steel?

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Other than not having to apply FrameSaver internally, I think my
suggestions would apply to any other frame material.

Dave Thompson said:

Second, drill a hole (about 3/8"😉 on the very
bottom of the bottom bracket

Howdy,

No expert, I, but 3/8 seems huge if the purpose is to let water out...
Is there some other reason for the suggested size?

Thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dave Thompson said:

Second, drill a hole (about 3/8"😉 on the very
bottom of the bottom bracket

Howdy,

No expert, I, but 3/8 seems huge if the purpose is to let water out...
Is there some other reason for the suggested size?

Thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

If you are riding in the wet, you want water to be able to get OUT of the
frame as fast or faster than it can come it. Many of the 'old' Italian
frames had the makers name or initial cut in the bottom bracket with no
weakening of it. Some Italian bottom brackets were 'skeletonized' for
appearance, weight savings and to let water out. These were the days of
loose bearing bottom brackets. Go here:
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/Masi/Masi_RS1.htm and scroll down to
see what I'm speaking of.

If you remove the screw that's hold the cable guide to your bottom bracket,
it's about 3/8". I've drilled two 1/4" holes in my bottom bracket, no big
deal.

On 11 Oct 2004 10:03:48 -0700, [email hidden] (Dan

Pavlica) said:

I wanted to know if anyone else experienced the following, and what to
do about it: I got a brand new $850 road bike with shimano 105
components from a bike shop, not some walmart [censored], and I recently
discovered that, when riding in the rain, my frame fills up with
water. There are two tiny holes on the bottom flat bars. I don't know
the exact technical name for these bars, but they are the bars that
run about parallel to the ground from the crankcase to the rear hub.
When I ride in the rain and then tip my bicycle in a certain way, I
see water running out of those little holes. I bet my crankcase fills
up with water too, and that can't be good. I am almost 100% sure that
those little holes are not the entry points for all that water that
pours out of them (they are in the back and kind of tucked in, nothing
sprays directly into them.)

Should this be happening? Should my frame be filling with water? How
bad is that for the crankcase, etc? Don't tell me to simply stay out
of the rain - I never plan on riding in the rain, it just works out
that way sometimes.

Dear Dan,

There may even be other holes in your rear triangle in
addition to the ones on your chain stays.

The idea is that the holes let the inside of the tubing dry
out--the water that runs out when you tip the bike would
also eventually evaporate.

The water gets in as moist air when you remove and
re-install things like bottom brackets and seat posts. When
the frame gets cold, the water condenses out of the air--and
usually the temperature drops when it rains and thehumidity
rises.

Or so I hear.

For amusement, you can spray a little WD-40 (water drier
formula #40) into the frame by sticking the thin red tube
that comes with the can into the holes. It evaporates, too,
taking some moisture with it.

Carl Fogel

Dave Thompson said:

"Kenneth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dave Thompson said:

Second, drill a hole (about 3/8"😉 on the very
bottom of the bottom bracket

Howdy,

No expert, I, but 3/8 seems huge if the purpose is to let water out...
Is there some other reason for the suggested size?

Thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

If you are riding in the wet, you want water to be able to get OUT of the
frame as fast or faster than it can come it. Many of the 'old' Italian
frames had the makers name or initial cut in the bottom bracket with no
weakening of it. Some Italian bottom brackets were 'skeletonized' for
appearance, weight savings and to let water out. These were the days of
loose bearing bottom brackets. Go here:
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/Masi/Masi_RS1.htm and scroll down to
see what I'm speaking of.

If you remove the screw that's hold the cable guide to your bottom bracket,
it's about 3/8". I've drilled two 1/4" holes in my bottom bracket, no big
deal.

Dear Dave,

Are you sure about that 3/8" size screw hole?

The screw that holds my cable guide on is about 1/8"? The
head of the screw itself isn't 3/8" wide.

But I have a cheap steel Schwinn frame--maybe bigger screws
are used in aluminum or in more expensive frames?

Carl Fogel

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dave Thompson said:

"Kenneth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:01:39 -0700, "Dave Thompson"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>Second, drill a hole (about 3/8"😉 on the very
>bottom of the bottom bracket

Howdy,

No expert, I, but 3/8 seems huge if the purpose is to let water out...
Is there some other reason for the suggested size?

Thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

If you are riding in the wet, you want water to be able to get OUT of the
frame as fast or faster than it can come it. Many of the 'old' Italian
frames had the makers name or initial cut in the bottom bracket with no
weakening of it. Some Italian bottom brackets were 'skeletonized' for
appearance, weight savings and to let water out. These were the days of
loose bearing bottom brackets. Go here:
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/Masi/Masi_RS1.htm and scroll down

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

see what I'm speaking of.

If you remove the screw that's hold the cable guide to your bottom

bracket,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it's about 3/8". I've drilled two 1/4" holes in my bottom bracket, no big
deal.

Dear Dave,

Are you sure about that 3/8" size screw hole?

The screw that holds my cable guide on is about 1/8"? The
head of the screw itself isn't 3/8" wide.

But I have a cheap steel Schwinn frame--maybe bigger screws
are used in aluminum or in more expensive frames?

Carl Fogel

My 'estimate' of the hole size for the cable guide bolt was a WAG. On my
Serotta it appears to be about 1/4" screw. No matter the screw size, I'll
stand by my 3/8" hole for a water drain.

Dan Pavlica said:

I wanted to know if anyone else experienced the following, and what to do
about it: I got a brand new $850 road bike with shimano 105 components
from a bike shop, not some walmart [censored], and I recently discovered that,
when riding in the rain, my frame fills up with water. There are two tiny
holes on the bottom flat bars.

Those holes are not how the water is getting in.

Quoted message said:

I don't know the exact technical name for
these bars,

Chainstays

Quoted message said:

I am almost 100% sure that those little holes are not the entry points for
all that water that pours out of them

That's right. Typically, the water gets in from the seatpost/frame
juncture. Water sprays on the seatpost from the rear tire, and some of it
drizzles down the post. If the post was not coated with grease when
inserted into the frame, it then runs down the indside of the seat tube.
It can also cause corrosion, which can stick the seatpost to the tube,
making it impossible to remove without cutting it out.

To fix this, remove the seatpost (if you can), liberally apply grease, and
re-insert.

Quoted message said:

Should this be happening?

No.

Quoted message said:

Should my frame be filling with water? How bad
is that for the crankcase, etc?

Not great, but most bottom brackets are fairly well sealed.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The
_`\(,_ | common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance,
(_)/ (_) | and benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my
trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my
business!" --Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"

carlfogel said:

There may even be other holes in your rear triangle in addition to the
ones on your chain stays.

The idea is that the holes let the inside of the tubing dry out--the water
that runs out when you tip the bike would also eventually evaporate.

No, that is not the idea. Those holes let hot air out of the tubes during
welding/brazing.

Quoted message said:

The water gets in as moist air when you remove and re-install things
like bottom brackets and seat posts. When the frame gets cold, the water
condenses out of the air--and usually the temperature drops when it
rains and thehumidity rises.

Let's see. There is about a quart of air inside the frame. Just how much
water do you think could be in that air? That is not where the water
comes from.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can
_`\(,_ | only be cured by something racy and Italian. Bianchis and
(_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis and Ferraris. --
Glenn Davies

David L. Johnson said:

carlfogel said:

There may even be other holes in your rear triangle in addition to the
ones on your chain stays.

The idea is that the holes let the inside of the tubing dry out--the water
that runs out when you tip the bike would also eventually evaporate.

No, that is not the idea. Those holes let hot air out of the tubes during
welding/brazing.

Quoted message said:

The water gets in as moist air when you remove and re-install things
like bottom brackets and seat posts. When the frame gets cold, the water
condenses out of the air--and usually the temperature drops when it
rains and thehumidity rises.

Let's see. There is about a quart of air inside the frame. Just how much
water do you think could be in that air? That is not where the water
comes from.

Dear David,

I'm looking at the condensation inside the face of my
wristwatch. There seems to be quite a bit, given that the
inside of the watch case is practically filled with the guts
of the watch.

Carl Fogel

Doug Huffman said:

$850? 'R you sure it's not walmart [censored] with a bike shop price tag?

Hey, congratulations, you win today's award, for the most thoughtful
and considerate post.

It is so nice of you to make a newcomer feel welcome. $850 will buy
you a name brand entry level bike. Trek, Giant, and Specialized, all
have bikes that sell at or below $850. Not to mention, the deals you
can get on closeouts, and end of the year sales.

You keep up the good work, with your informative and insightful
posts;-)

Life is Good!
Jeff

carlfogel said:

Dear David,

I'm looking at the condensation inside the face of my wristwatch. There
seems to be quite a bit, given that the inside of the watch case is
practically filled with the guts of the watch.

And? You think that came from the air inside your watch? Your "water
resistant" watch has a leak.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Accept risk. Accept responsibility. Put a lawyer out of
_`\(,_ | business.
(_)/ (_) |

Note - If you have a carbon seat post do not grease it. - S
"Dave Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dan Pavlica" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I wanted to know if anyone else experienced the following, and what to
do about it: I got a brand new $850 road bike with shimano 105
components from a bike shop, not some walmart [censored], and I recently
discovered that, when riding in the rain, my frame fills up with
water. There are two tiny holes on the bottom flat bars. I don't know
the exact technical name for these bars, but they are the bars that
run about parallel to the ground from the crankcase to the rear hub.
When I ride in the rain and then tip my bicycle in a certain way, I
see water running out of those little holes. I bet my crankcase fills
up with water too, and that can't be good. I am almost 100% sure that
those little holes are not the entry points for all that water that
pours out of them (they are in the back and kind of tucked in, nothing
sprays directly into them.)

Should this be happening? Should my frame be filling with water? How
bad is that for the crankcase, etc? Don't tell me to simply stay out
of the rain - I never plan on riding in the rain, it just works out
that way sometimes.

Water in the frame is not at all uncommon. If taken care of promptly it's
not a big deal. But if left untreated it can lead to a whole host of
problems.

Most likely the water is entering at the seat/seat tube junction. Make
sure
your seat post is greased, most any grease will do. The holes in your
chainstays (bottom flat bars) are vent holes and should be left open. If
you
remove your seat and turn the bike upside down the water will drain out
nicely. For preventative measures I would tell you to do two things. First
treat the inside of your frame with a product called FrameSaver, a
spray-in
rust preventative. It's commonly available at bike shops (if they don't
have
it, they can get it easily) Second, drill a hole (about 3/8"😉 on the very
bottom of the bottom bracket (crankcase) This will allow accumulated water
to drain out.

You sound as if you are new to bikes. If that's the case, and you don't
feel
comfortable about drilling holes and spraying chemicals in your frame,
seek
the help/advice of your bike shop. Both of my suggestions are easy to do
but
require a little expertise and care.

It might not be wise to drill a hole in a carbon bike frame.

"Allan Butler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:qsIad.373399$Fg5.365924@attbi_s53...

Quoted message said:

It might not be wise to drill a hole in a carbon bike frame.

I agree, but the OP's $850.00 bike is not very likely to be CF.

Dan Pavlica said:

I wanted to know if anyone else experienced the following, and what to
do about it: I got a brand new $850 road bike with shimano 105
components from a bike shop, not some walmart [censored], and I recently
discovered that, when riding in the rain, my frame fills up with
water. There are two tiny holes on the bottom flat bars. I don't know
the exact technical name for these bars, but they are the bars that
run about parallel to the ground from the crankcase to the rear hub.
When I ride in the rain and then tip my bicycle in a certain way, I
see water running out of those little holes. I bet my crankcase fills
up with water too, and that can't be good. I am almost 100% sure that
those little holes are not the entry points for all that water that
pours out of them (they are in the back and kind of tucked in, nothing
sprays directly into them.)

Should this be happening? Should my frame be filling with water? How
bad is that for the crankcase, etc? Don't tell me to simply stay out
of the rain - I never plan on riding in the rain, it just works out
that way sometimes.

water enters at the seat post area & runs down to the bottom. give the
water an exit path by drilling a drain hole in the bottom bracket. 1/8"
is sufficient. check the bb in a high end italian frame if you need
reassurance this is not detrimental to frame strength. when done,
provided it's not carbon, grease your seat post to seal out further
water entry.

On 11 Oct 2004 10:03:48 -0700, [email hidden] (Dan Pavlica)

Quoted message said:

I wanted to know if anyone else experienced the following, and what to
do about it: I got a brand new $850 road bike with shimano 105
components from a bike shop, not some walmart [censored], and I recently
discovered that, when riding in the rain, my frame fills up with
water. There are two tiny holes on the bottom flat bars. I don't know
the exact technical name for these bars, but they are the bars that
run about parallel to the ground from the crankcase

What you call the "crankcase" is a "bottom bracket" (or, specifically,
the frame part which holds the bearings and such is a "bottom bracket
shell", among other possible names) to a bike tech person.

Quoted message said:

to the rear hub.

The tubes are called "chain stays".

Quoted message said:

When I ride in the rain and then tip my bicycle in a certain way, I
see water running out of those little holes.

Not uncommon.

Quoted message said:

I bet my crankcase fills
up with water too, and that can't be good.

Not disastrous, usually, either, since the bearings are probably
sealed. On the other hand, internal corrosion will result if
excessive water accumulation is not drained..

Quoted message said:

I am almost 100% sure that
those little holes are not the entry points for all that water that
pours out of them (they are in the back and kind of tucked in, nothing
sprays directly into them.)

Probably not. It's far more likely that water slinging from the rear
wheel is coming down the inside of the seat tube and accumulating in
the BB area.

Quoted message said:

Should this be happening?

The laws of physics say "yes", unless steps are taken to exclude the
water.

Quoted message said:

Should my frame be filling with water? How
bad is that for the crankcase, etc? Don't tell me to simply stay out
of the rain - I never plan on riding in the rain, it just works out
that way sometimes.

As long as the frame isn't carbon (and at $850, take my word for it
that it's not likely to be), simply greasing the inside of the seat
tube has a good chance of reducing the amount of water that gets into
the frame. (I don't recommend greasing the seat tube on a carbon
frame unless the manufacturer is consulted for advice on what type of
grease is safe to use.) Beyond that, there's always the option of
adding a fender...and the *obvious* option of just taking a couple of
minutes to tip the water out when you've been riding in the wet.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
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