Weight training: effective if I'm not getting sore?

Jay Tinkerton said:

I'm a "newbie" runner, just started since this summer, putting in
about 20-25 miles per week now. On my off days I'm doing some weight
training, but I've began to notice that between these sessions I've
stopped getting quite as sore.

What I'm wondering is whether the weight training is less effective if
I'm not getting sore as much anymore?

No, it's not less effective. DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness)
usually comes from unfamiliar activities, not just because the muscle is
repairing itself. The flip side of that is that you need to make sure
to allow your muscles recovery time even if they aren't sore.

Quoted message said:

Doesn't it mean I should work harder?

Probably. People tend to be weanies about how heavy they'll live. If
you can safely lift something 8 times then you could probably go
heavier. Go as heavy as you can while still being able to squeeze out
reps in good form. Only count the reps with good form: if you find
yourself flinging your hips on a bicep curl, for example, then you're
done. Pay very close attention to your form. Do the reps slowly and
deliberately.

You don't have to go to failure to get great benefits. But you do have
to lift heavy. You ought to be sweating. You ought to do three sets.
You ought to be out of breath and wonder why anybody thought this was a
good idea.

I like to stop with one rep still in the hole: i.e., I don't go to
failure, I go to the part where it's painful but I could push through
the pain and still probably get one more rep... but I don't.

I run on alternating days from weightlifting. On weightlifting days I
just do a brief 10 minute warm-up on some cross-training equipment.

Dally

Quoted message said:

What I'm wondering is whether the weight training is less effective if
I'm not getting sore as much anymore? Doesn't it mean I should work
harder?

Generally a good sign. For any new sport or exercise it takes about 2-6 months
to generally adjust.
Most runners would probably follow the "endurance" style of weight training.
That is 3-5 sets of 10 or so repetitions. By the last set you should feel
mildly fatigued. Increase the weight when you stop feeling fatigued.
There are other styles of lifting that emphasize bulk, strength, definition, etc.,
but these may conflict with cardio goals.

Leafing through rec.running, I read Dally's message of 06 Oct 2004:

Quoted message said:

Go as heavy as you can while still being able to squeeze out
reps in good form. Only count the reps with good form: if you find
yourself flinging your hips on a bicep curl, for example, then you're
done. Pay very close attention to your form. Do the reps slowly and
deliberately.

I agree with this for the most part. I try to do very strict movements when
weight training. However, on the last 1 or 2 sets I'll get a few extra reps
by cheating. For example, while doing a one arm curl I'll do as many reps
as possible using strict form. Once I've reached a point of failure, then
I'll assist with the other arm just enough to grind out a few extra reps.
So if I'm failing at 8 reps, I'll get an extra 2 reps by cheating.

Phil M.

--
"If you feel bad at 10 miles, you're in trouble. If you feel bad at 20
miles, you're normal. If you don't feel bad at 26 miles, you're abnormal."
-Rob de Castella

Jay Tinkerton <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm a "newbie" runner, just started since this summer, putting in
about 20-25 miles per week now. On my off days I'm doing some weight
training, but I've began to notice that between these sessions I've
stopped getting quite as sore.

What I'm wondering is whether the weight training is less effective if
I'm not getting sore as much anymore? Doesn't it mean I should work
harder?

Short answer: no. If you have thick skin post this question on
misc.fitness.weights for more detail. And if you really want to know about
the effectiveness of your routine post details about your goals and your
current routine.

Phil M. said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read Dally's message of 06 Oct 2004:

Quoted message said:

Go as heavy as you can while still being able to squeeze out
reps in good form. Only count the reps with good form: if you find
yourself flinging your hips on a bicep curl, for example, then you're
done. Pay very close attention to your form. Do the reps slowly and
deliberately.

I agree with this for the most part. I try to do very strict movements when
weight training. However, on the last 1 or 2 sets I'll get a few extra reps
by cheating. For example, while doing a one arm curl I'll do as many reps
as possible using strict form. Once I've reached a point of failure, then
I'll assist with the other arm just enough to grind out a few extra reps.
So if I'm failing at 8 reps, I'll get an extra 2 reps by cheating.

I'm not clear what your goal is with this method. Joint destruction?

Dally

In article <[email hidden]>, Dally <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Doesn't it mean I should work harder?

Probably. People tend to be weanies about how heavy they'll live.

Oh, I don't know. People around where I am seem to be living plenty
heavy.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Leafing through rec.running, I read Dally's message of 06 Oct 2004:

Quoted message said:

Phil M. said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read Dally's message of 06 Oct 2004:

Quoted message said:

Go as heavy as you can while still being able to squeeze out
reps in good form. Only count the reps with good form: if you find
yourself flinging your hips on a bicep curl, for example, then you're
done. Pay very close attention to your form. Do the reps slowly and
deliberately.

I agree with this for the most part. I try to do very strict
movements when weight training. However, on the last 1 or 2 sets I'll
get a few extra reps by cheating. For example, while doing a one arm
curl I'll do as many reps as possible using strict form. Once I've
reached a point of failure, then I'll assist with the other arm just
enough to grind out a few extra reps. So if I'm failing at 8 reps,
I'll get an extra 2 reps by cheating.

I'm not clear what your goal is with this method. Joint destruction?

How is would this cause joint destruction? This is a common method of
training, at least amoung the bodybuilding crowd. If you're more of a
power lifter, then maybe this is not the case. This is similar to having
a spotter to help you with the last few reps. Assisting on the
contraction only, then you slowly lower the weight under your own power.

Phil M.

--
"If you feel bad at 10 miles, you're in trouble. If you feel bad at 20
miles, you're normal. If you don't feel bad at 26 miles, you're
abnormal." -Rob de Castella

Quoted message said:

'm a "newbie" runner, just started since this summer, putting in
about 20-25 miles per week now. On my off days I'm doing some weight
training, but I've began to notice that between these sessions I've
stopped getting quite as sore.

What I'm wondering is whether the weight training is less effective if
I'm not getting sore as much anymore? Doesn't it mean I should work
harder?

Maybe. You will (should) get less sore as your body adjusts to a strength
routine. If it feels less effective, then maybe it's time to increase the
weight. For me on the bench, if I can do 4 sets of 10-12 with 2 minute rest
for two consecutive sessions, I increase the weight (unless I'm having joint
pain).

Lyndon
"Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!" --US Olympic Track Coach
Brooks Johnson

[email hidden] (Jay Tinkerton) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I'm a "newbie" runner, just started since this summer, putting in
about 20-25 miles per week now. On my off days I'm doing some weight
training, but I've began to notice that between these sessions I've
stopped getting quite as sore.

What I'm wondering is whether the weight training is less effective if
I'm not getting sore as much anymore? Doesn't it mean I should work
harder?

thanks!

_jay

Absolutely not. I'm the opposite - primarily a weight trainer who
runs on the side. It is completely normal for workouts with weights
to no longer make you sore. That doesn't mean that they aren't
effective, what it means is that your body is becoming better adapted
to the stresses of lifting. Just like when you started running and
had DOMS (next day soreness) but not after a month or two of running,
you shouldn't experience DOMS from lifting after a few weeks of
lifting. Just like you wouldn't run to the point of next-day soreness
in order to feel like your runs "count," you shouldn't ramp up the
amount of lifting in order to make it count. Weight-trainers with any
experience at all should not experience soreness unless they change
their routine drastically or come back after a lot of time off (or if
they bust their gut squatting, but that's another story).

rick++ said:

Quoted message said:

What I'm wondering is whether the weight training is less effective if
I'm not getting sore as much anymore? Doesn't it mean I should work
harder?

Generally a good sign. For any new sport or exercise it takes about 2-6
months to generally adjust. Most runners would probably follow the
"endurance" style of weight training. That is 3-5 sets of 10 or so
repetitions. By the last set you should feel mildly fatigued. Increase the
weight when you stop feeling fatigued. There are other styles of lifting
that emphasize bulk, strength, definition, etc., but these may conflict with
cardio goals.

3-5 sets of 10 isn't "endurance" lifting (whatever that means), it's the right
range to be lifting in for a bodybuilder.

IMO for a runner, the most appropriate training is strength work -- explosive
repetitions, low reps, but the weight should be light enough that you can
lift it quickly.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[email hidden] (Snowden22) wrote in message n
Just like when you started running and

Quoted message said:

had DOMS (next day soreness) but not after a month or two of running,
you shouldn't experience DOMS from lifting after a few weeks of
lifting. Just like you wouldn't run to the point of next-day soreness
in order to feel like your runs "count," you shouldn't ramp up the
amount of lifting in order to make it count. Weight-trainers with any
experience at all should not experience soreness unless they change
their routine drastically or come back after a lot of time off (or if
they bust their gut squatting, but that's another story).

Thanks to all for the great responses. Based on this info, and how
I'm feeling, I think I probably am getting more adjusted to my
program. I'm lifting (mainly nautilus equipment) for 2 sessions per
week, and running 4-5 days. It's a combo that seems to be working for
me. I'm doing 3-5 sets of 10 reps when working with upper body, and
more like 5 or more sets of 12 when I'm working with leg press, etc.
I'm 40 y/o and feeling pretty good. :-)

_jay

"Jay Tinkerton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Snowden22) wrote in message n
Just like when you started running and

Quoted message said:

had DOMS (next day soreness) but not after a month or two of running,
you shouldn't experience DOMS from lifting after a few weeks of
lifting. Just like you wouldn't run to the point of next-day soreness
in order to feel like your runs "count," you shouldn't ramp up the
amount of lifting in order to make it count. Weight-trainers with any
experience at all should not experience soreness unless they change
their routine drastically or come back after a lot of time off (or if
they bust their gut squatting, but that's another story).

Thanks to all for the great responses. Based on this info, and how
I'm feeling, I think I probably am getting more adjusted to my
program. I'm lifting (mainly nautilus equipment) for 2 sessions per
week, and running 4-5 days. It's a combo that seems to be working for
me. I'm doing 3-5 sets of 10 reps when working with upper body, and
more like 5 or more sets of 12 when I'm working with leg press, etc.
I'm 40 y/o and feeling pretty good. :-)

Well I guess you would need really thick skin if you posted on mfw.

"Matthew Venhaus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well I guess you would need really thick skin if you posted on mfw.

Why is that?

Jay Tinkerton <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Matthew Venhaus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well I guess you would need really thick skin if you posted on mfw.

Why is that?

I'm assuming Dally will share her Nautilus story with you. I won't steal her
thunder.

Lift heavy!

"Matthew Venhaus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I'm assuming Dally will share her Nautilus story with you. I won't steal her
thunder.

Lift heavy!

I thought that might've been it! I can't wait to hear. :-)

Jay Tinkerton <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Matthew Venhaus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm assuming Dally will share her Nautilus story with you. I won't steal

her

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

thunder.

Lift heavy!

I thought that might've been it! I can't wait to hear. :-)

You don't have to wait. Google.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=2qqta2FvfhhsU1%40uni-berlin.de&output=g
plain

Quoted message said:

3-5 sets of 10 isn't "endurance" lifting (whatever that means), it's the right
range to be lifting in for a bodybuilder.

Strength trainers will typically do less than 5 reps near maximum weight
to failure.
Its dangerous for beginners to push this hard.

rick++ said:

Quoted message said:

3-5 sets of 10 isn't "endurance" lifting (whatever that means), it's the
right range to be lifting in for a bodybuilder.

Strength trainers will typically do less than 5 reps near maximum weight
to failure.

Nonsense. Bodybuilders nearly always do more than 5 reps, and powerlifters
rarely train to failure. Those training for sports are more likely to train
like powerlifters though they won't work up to high percentages of 1rm like
(some) powerlifters do.

Quoted message said:

Its dangerous for beginners to push this hard.

The important principal is to master technique before attempting to lift a
lot of weight. On an exercise like the squat, this might mean training with
just the bar until one can demonstrate good technique.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Jay Tinkerton said:

"Matthew Venhaus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Well I guess you would need really thick skin if you posted on mfw.

Why is that?

The motto there is "we hate each other but we hate you more."

It's actually a great place to learn if you're okay with being flamed
and made fun of for being ignorant. But the level of knowledge can't be
beat anywhere on usenet in my experience. It just wanders off-topic
excessively often. It's like a pub of a bunch of weightlifting geniuses
who only accidently talk about weightlifting once in a while.

Dally