Weird Wheel Building Experience

try quadrant tightening. 2 Q's "out " first seated+ then, 2 Q's "not
out" seated only then back to two Q's out for first torque and first
correction torque.
tighten quadrents from middle quad out both sides alternately. use
tape.

datakoll said:

try quadrant tightening. 2 Q's "out " first seated+ then, 2 Q's "not
out" seated only then back to two Q's out for first torque and first
correction torque.
tighten quadrents from middle quad out both sides alternately. use
tape.

8-track or just reel-to-reel?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Jay Beattie said:

I don't see how you could deform an MA-2 with 90-110 kgf. I've run
those suckers much higher with no problems, except spoke hole cracking
years later. Did you side load the wheel while building? The MA-2 is
about the most forgiving road rim in the world for a new builder, next
to maybe a SuperChamp Mod 58. It's like the instant pudding of wheel
building.-- Jay Beattie.

Yeah, me too. I am definitely of amateur wheel-building status, though
I do follow "the book". I think I just messed up the rim on the initial
build somehow.

I am not sure what you mean by "side load" the wheel. After it got to
about 50KgF I started to dish it. Is that what you mean?

Anyway, the right side spokes are all 90-110 KgF. However, on the left
side they are 55-90 KgF. I'll ride the wheel to see how much it misbehaves.

Rob "missing Sheldon, I bet you are too" Perkins

datakoll said:

try quadrant tightening. 2 Q's "out " first seated+ then, 2 Q's "not
out" seated only then back to two Q's out for first torque and first
correction torque.
tighten quadrents from middle quad out both sides alternately. use
tape.

Ok, I give. Quadrant I understand. Given a 32-spoke wheel, what would
that mean in terms of spoke numbers and tightening sequence?

Rob "just tighten each spoke a little bit at a time" Perkins

Robert Perkins said:

datakoll said:

try quadrant tightening. 2 Q's "out " first seated+ then, 2 Q's "not
out" seated only then back to two Q's out for first torque and first
correction torque.
tighten quadrents from middle quad out both sides alternately. use
tape.

Ok, I give.  Quadrant I understand.  Given a 32-spoke wheel, what would
that mean in terms of spoke numbers and tightening sequence?

Rob "just tighten each spoke a little bit at a time" Perkins

son after beginning the continuous experinece of straightneing
continuously bent rims, the thought sprung up that written direction
omitted a critical experiential fact: sheet metal isnot unbent from
right to,left or top to bottom or conversely. Sheet metal isbent from
middle outwards sequenchally and with feeling.
The rim, the bridge arch rebent from middle ourward supports itself.
Traveling along the rim from left to right weakens it. At best and
worst, turning one more 1/4 turn on a trued rim, is takening a chance
at Brandt's sine wave torque limit.
32/4=8 at 11:18 EST at Cape Canaveral 2/23/08. 3+3=6 so there's 2
spokes in the middle of each quad.
URINE LUCK you immediately achieved balance.
off course, yawl may find the lateral problems braced with a radial
problem giving the dreaded egg shaped rim. You know sublimely
tightening one Q side and not so much the other Q side during iintial
torque following nipple seating moves the hub toward the not so much
side.

actual objective visual examination is very difficult: the rim present
itself as an optical illusion so tricky not many realize what the rim
is doing to the builder's synapses.

try examining the rim adjacent a flat surface. You may see that what
you thought you were doing does not jibe with an approach to objective
physical reality.

then draw the plan, and with the drawing, schedule your moves as first
torque setups past nipple seating. EG, this Q is 2 mid nips 1/4+ turn,
next 3 each side seated, next 4 -1/8 turn

and so on.

I haven't used a tensionometer yet. Which is to say I don't know and
my spokes are too loose. Brandt would vomit. But I'm happy time/
results, the tires run good long mileages.

correction to preceeding:

At best and worst, turning one more 1/4 turn on a trued rim, is
takening a chance
at Brandt's sine wave torque limit,
""when moving left to right like from tube nipple hole around 360d""

Tube hole to tube hole induces a wave front. The idea is eliminating
wave fronts not causing wave fronts. Except off course when ura using
wave front for bracing as with the Quad procedure.

Does the tensionometer ask for wheelbuilding as a math paradigm?
Is the actual wheelbuilding with a no longer round circular laterally
flat rim outside the math paradigm?

Until bent rim stresses are reduced, equalized thru spoke tensions
with a procedure NOT involving a tensionometer, onto a plateau where
at that point or juncture of spoke tensions and bent rim stresses, a
math and tension meter procedure can proceed to an attempt at a math
solution. ???

or is the tension meter used as a double check on visual trueing
procedures, a sign post.
or is the tensionmeter an intermediary step in the visual process?
Also-Brandt's sine wave rim is induced by an unbalanced stress wave
front. Is JB using a tension meter? What brand?

Robert Perkins said:

Jay Beattie said:

I don't see how you could deform an MA-2 with 90-110 kgf.  I've run
those suckers much higher with no problems, except spoke hole cracking
years later. Did you side load the wheel while building?  The MA-2 is
about the most forgiving road rim in the world for a new builder, next
to maybe a SuperChamp Mod 58. It's like the instant pudding of wheel
building.-- Jay Beattie.

Yeah, me too.  I am definitely of amateur wheel-building status, though
I do follow "the book".  I think I just messed up the rim on the initial
build somehow.

I am not sure what you mean by "side load" the wheel.  After it got to
about 50KgF I started to dish it.  Is that what you mean?

Anyway, the right side spokes are all 90-110 KgF.  However, on the left
side they are 55-90 KgF.  I'll ride the wheel to see how much it misbehaves.

Rob "missing Sheldon, I bet you are too" Perkins

Side loading meaning placing the wheel on it's side with the axle on a
block of wood, hands on rims and applying force to set the spokes and
relieve spoke wind up -- and depending on who you believe, some stress
relief. -- Jay Beattie.

Robert Perkins said:

Jay Beattie said:

I don't see how you could deform an MA-2 with 90-110 kgf.  I've run
those suckers much higher with no problems, except spoke hole cracking
years later. Did you side load the wheel while building?  The MA-2 is
about the most forgiving road rim in the world for a new builder, next
to maybe a SuperChamp Mod 58. It's like the instant pudding of wheel
building.-- Jay Beattie.

Yeah, me too.  I am definitely of amateur wheel-building status, though
I do follow "the book".  I think I just messed up the rim on the initial
build somehow.

I am not sure what you mean by "side load" the wheel.  After it got to
about 50KgF I started to dish it.  Is that what you mean?

Anyway, the right side spokes are all 90-110 KgF.  However, on the left
side they are 55-90 KgF.  I'll ride the wheel to see how much it misbehaves.

Rob "missing Sheldon, I bet you are too" Perkins

Side loading meaning placing the wheel on it's side with the axle on a
block of wood, hands on rims and applying force to set the spokes and
relieve spoke wind up -- and depending on who you believe, some stress
relief. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

Robert Perkins said:

Jay Beattie said:

I don't see how you could deform an MA-2 with 90-110 kgf.  I've run
those suckers much higher with no problems, except spoke hole cracking
years later. Did you side load the wheel while building?  The MA-2 is
about the most forgiving road rim in the world for a new builder, next
to maybe a SuperChamp Mod 58. It's like the instant pudding of wheel
building.-- Jay Beattie.

Quoted message said:

Yeah, me too.  I am definitely of amateur wheel-building status, though
I do follow "the book".  I think I just messed up the rim on the initial
build somehow.

Quoted message said:

I am not sure what you mean by "side load" the wheel.  After it got to
about 50KgF I started to dish it.  Is that what you mean?

Quoted message said:

Anyway, the right side spokes are all 90-110 KgF.  However, on the left
side they are 55-90 KgF.  I'll ride the wheel to see how much it misbehaves.

Quoted message said:

Rob "missing Sheldon, I bet you are too" Perkins

Side loading meaning placing the wheel on it's side with the axle on a
block of wood, hands on rims and applying force to set the spokes and
relieve spoke wind up -- and depending on who you believe, some stress
relief. -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

side loading could be a divider between group one and group two
builders

my group two wheels aren't thought of as laterally strong enough to
survive side load stress relief nor tight to a level where side force
untwists twisted spokes. Spokes on my wheels don't have that level of
grip to bind.
Here, stress relief is bending spoke exits from nipples more than
anythng else I can see or think of: squeezing spoke pairs together,
running, then retrueimg.