What difference would a 115g saving in tyre weight make?

Artoi said:

My bike presently has a set of Conti UltraSport 700cX25. If I change it
to a set of new Grand Prix 4000 with a saving of 115g/tyre, what
practical differences would I be able to feel during my rides? Is it a
weight saving that'll be obvious?

2 x 115 = 230 grams which is about a half pound total. Strictly from a
weight standpoint, I don't think you'll notice a difference. But there
are other considerations such as casing thread count, tread pattern,
and traction.

The Ultra Sport 700x25 is 330g with a 3-ply casing and 84 tpi total.
That seems kind of heavy, and a low thread count that will increase
rolling resistance.

What kind of riding do you do?

Art Harris

Artoi said:

My bike presently has a set of Conti UltraSport 700cX25. If I change it
to a set of new Grand Prix 4000 with a saving of 115g/tyre, what
practical differences would I be able to feel during my rides? Is it a
weight saving that'll be obvious?

Thanks.
--

If somebody swapped the tires on your bike and didn't tell you, you
wouldn't notice any difference. However, if you pay $100 for new
tires, you'll immediately appreciate the faster, grippier, more
comfortable ride. (I'd wear the old ones out first.)

-Vee

In article <[email hidden]>,

Art Harris said:

Artoi said:

My bike presently has a set of Conti UltraSport 700cX25. If I change it
to a set of new Grand Prix 4000 with a saving of 115g/tyre, what
practical differences would I be able to feel during my rides? Is it a
weight saving that'll be obvious?

2 x 115 = 230 grams which is about a half pound total. Strictly from a
weight standpoint, I don't think you'll notice a difference. But there
are other considerations such as casing thread count, tread pattern,
and traction.

The Ultra Sport 700x25 is 330g with a 3-ply casing and 84 tpi total.
That seems kind of heavy, and a low thread count that will increase
rolling resistance.

What kind of riding do you do?

I was more interested in the dynamic effect of tyre weight. Just curious
what 115g/wheel difference would make to the ride.

As for the type of riding, well, definitely no races. Mostly exercises
around cycle paths as well as on roads. Weekly rides on the road with a
friend around 30km. But we do have a lot of hills here in Sydney and
figured the reduced dynamic weight may make climbing a bit easier. But
just can't quantify it as to by how much.
--

Artoi said:

My bike presently has a set of Conti UltraSport 700cX25. If I change it
to a set of new Grand Prix 4000 with a saving of 115g/tyre, what
practical differences would I be able to feel during my rides?

Well, a bunch of guys in RBT will tell you that they think you're
foolish.

JT

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Artoi said:

My bike presently has a set of Conti UltraSport 700cX25. If I change it
to a set of new Grand Prix 4000 with a saving of 115g/tyre, what
practical differences would I be able to feel during my rides? Is it a
weight saving that'll be obvious?

Thanks.
--

Practical differences...less punctures with the Ultrasports...and less
expensive..seems like the choice is an easy one. Don't expect a lighter
tire to make a significant difference in your riding performance.

Artoi said:

My bike presently has a set of Conti UltraSport 700cX25. If I change it
to a set of new Grand Prix 4000 with a saving of 115g/tyre, what
practical differences would I be able to feel during my rides? Is it a
weight saving that'll be obvious?

Personally, I think you will notice the difference, probably as a
subtle new-found power in going up hills and accelerating (although it
is difficult to separate the rolling resistance from the weight
improvement), but unfortunately for you the gods of rbt will not allow
you to reduce your bike weight until you match LA's racing body fat %.

Artoi said:

I was more interested in the dynamic effect of tyre weight. Just curious
what 115g/wheel difference would make to the ride.

Ah, I think you mean "rotating weight" or rotational inertia. At a
steady speed, it will make no difference at all. When accelerating, it
theoretically makes a difference, but in cycling the effect is very,
very small (unless you are doing explosive accelerations).

Art Harris

Artoi said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Art Harris said:

Artoi said:

My bike presently has a set of Conti UltraSport 700cX25. If I change it
to a set of new Grand Prix 4000 with a saving of 115g/tyre, what
practical differences would I be able to feel during my rides? Is it a
weight saving that'll be obvious?

2 x 115 = 230 grams which is about a half pound total. Strictly from a
weight standpoint, I don't think you'll notice a difference. But there
are other considerations such as casing thread count, tread pattern,
and traction.

The Ultra Sport 700x25 is 330g with a 3-ply casing and 84 tpi total.
That seems kind of heavy, and a low thread count that will increase
rolling resistance.

What kind of riding do you do?

I was more interested in the dynamic effect of tyre weight. Just curious
what 115g/wheel difference would make to the ride.

As for the type of riding, well, definitely no races. Mostly exercises
around cycle paths as well as on roads. Weekly rides on the road with a
friend around 30km. But we do have a lot of hills here in Sydney and
figured the reduced dynamic weight may make climbing a bit easier. But
just can't quantify it as to by how much.
--

Try zero, unless NASA is measuring your displacements with a laser
interferometer. However, both of these tires, like all Contis, are
relatively crappy as far as rolling resistance goes, but can be
durable. Look at the table below and realize that you are better off
with Michelin Carbon, or IRC Roadwinner or Triathlon, Avocet Road or
Duro (latter four not marked in these tables, but in other comparable
tables though). Michelin Dynamic is also probably better than
Ultrasport, for about the same price or cheaper.

Tire Crr Speed*
Delta

Deda Tre Giro d'Italia 0.0038 23.08
Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX 0.0039 23.05
0.03
Michelin Pro 2 Race 0.0042 22.96
0.12
Vittoria Diamante Pro Rain 0.0044 22.90
0.18
Michelin Megamium 2 0.0047 22.81
0.27
Pariba Revolution 0.0048 22.78
0.30
Michelin Carbon 0.0050 22.72
0.36
Panaracer Stradius Pro 0.0051 22.69
0.39
Schwalbe Stelvio Plus 0.0052 22.66
0.42
Schwalbe Stelvio Evolution Front 0.0056 22.54
0.54
Continental GP Force (rear) 0.0057 22.51
0.57
Hutchinson Fusion 0.0057 22.51
0.57
Schwalbe Stelvio Evolution Rear 0.0057 22.51
0.57
Continental Ultra GatorSkin 0.0058 22.48
0.60
Ritchey Pro Race Slick WCS 0.0058 22.48
0.60
Schwalbe Stelvio 0.0059 22.45
0.63
Specialized S-Works Mondo 0.0061 22.39
0.69
Continental GP 3000 0.0067 22.21
0.87
*Hutchinson Top Speed 0.0069 22.15
0.93
Continental GP Attack (front) 0.0073 22.04
1.04

Vredestein Fortezza Piste 700 x 23c 145 0.0041
Michelin Axial Supercomp 700 x 20c 110 0.0045
Conti Grand Prix 3000 Silica 700 x 23c 120 0.0055
Conti Grand Prix 3000 Silica 700 x 28c 125 0.0060
Michelin Tracer 700 x 25c 90 0.0061
Michelin Tracer 700 x 25c 100 0.0062
Michelin Axial PRO 700 x 20c 110 0.0062
Michelin Axial PRO 700 x 23c 110 0.0063
Conti Supersport Ultra 700 x 18c 135 0.0065
Michelin World Tour 700 x 28c 100 0.0065
Hutchinson HP 25 700 x 25c 110 0.0067
Conti Grand Prix foldable 700 x 23c 120 0.0067
Michelin World Tour 700 x 28c 85 0.0071
Hutchinson HP 20 700 x 20c 110 0.0085
Conti Top Touring 700 x 32c 70 0.0087

Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX 27.1 W
Michelin Pro 2 Race 29.2 W
Michelin Carbon 34.7 W
Panaracer Stradius Pro 35.4 W
Hutchinson Fusion 39.6 W
Continental Ultra GatorSkin 40.3 W
Continental Grand Prix 3000 46.6 W

*
in MPH
185lb rider + bike
250W rider output
CdA = .32m^2 (racing crouch, normal road bike)
Transmission efficiency = 96%
The test also included a calculation that on a flat 40 km time trial, a
rider with a 300 W power output would finish 2 minutes and 18 seconds
faster with the Deda Tre tyres than with Hutchinson Top Speed.
w

41 said:

Look at the table below and realize that you are better off
with Michelin Carbon, or IRC Roadwinner or Triathlon, Avocet Road or
Duro (latter four not marked in these tables, but in other comparable
tables though). Michelin Dynamic is also probably better than
Ultrasport, for about the same price or cheaper.

I tend to agree. I'm a big fan of the IRC Road Winner. Just curiuos
where you got the Crr values in your list.

Art Harris

In article <[email hidden]>,

Artoi said:

My bike presently has a set of Conti UltraSport 700cX25. If I change
it to a set of new Grand Prix 4000 with a saving of 115g/tyre, what
practical differences would I be able to feel during my rides? Is it
a weight saving that'll be obvious?

No.

Put it this way- do you notice the difference between full and empty
water bottles? A 24 ounce water bottle weighs its own weight plus 710
grams for the water, more than 6 times the weight savings of the lighter
tire. If you don't notice the difference between a full and empty water
bottle, you won't notice the lighter tire.

Art Harris said:

41 said:

Look at the table below and realize that you are better off
with Michelin Carbon, or IRC Roadwinner or Triathlon, Avocet Road or
Duro (latter four not marked in these tables, but in other comparable
tables th ough). Michelin Dynamic is also probably better than
Ultrasport, for about the same price or cheaper.

I tend to agree. I'm a big fan of the IRC Road Winner. Just curiuos
where you got the Crr values in your list.

I guess you could say, from Google. That is, searching RBT. The big set
is from TOUR magazine (German), another set is from I don't know where,
and I think a third (actually I believe it is the second) was from an
airless tire company. I didn't record in the file who did what, but as
you can see they are all pretty consistent. So is the Avocet test data
that is in the form of graphs that are referred to frequently. It seems
to me in some post I did not too long ago I translated those Avocet
data into Crr. I think it was when the TOUR tests first came out.

By the way, are your current Road Winners from Japan or Korea, and what
width are they in real life? 28 or 25? And do you have tanwall or
blackwall? I am wondering if they were resized or relabelled when
production shifted to Korea, like Avocets were. Thinking of stocking up
mail order and wanting to be sure of what I am getting.

In article <[email hidden]>,

41 said:

Artoi said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Art Harris said:

Artoi wrote:
> My bike presently has a set of Conti UltraSport 700cX25. If I change it
> to a set of new Grand Prix 4000 with a saving of 115g/tyre, what
> practical differences would I be able to feel during my rides? Is it a
> weight saving that'll be obvious?

2 x 115 = 230 grams which is about a half pound total. Strictly from a
weight standpoint, I don't think you'll notice a difference. But there
are other considerations such as casing thread count, tread pattern,
and traction.

The Ultra Sport 700x25 is 330g with a 3-ply casing and 84 tpi total.
That seems kind of heavy, and a low thread count that will increase
rolling resistance.

What kind of riding do you do?

I was more interested in the dynamic effect of tyre weight. Just curious
what 115g/wheel difference would make to the ride.

As for the type of riding, well, definitely no races. Mostly exercises
around cycle paths as well as on roads. Weekly rides on the road with a
friend around 30km. But we do have a lot of hills here in Sydney and
figured the reduced dynamic weight may make climbing a bit easier. But
just can't quantify it as to by how much.
--

Try zero, unless NASA is measuring your displacements with a laser
interferometer. However, both of these tires, like all Contis, are
relatively crappy as far as rolling resistance goes, but can be
durable. Look at the table below and realize that you are better off
with Michelin Carbon, or IRC Roadwinner or Triathlon, Avocet Road or
Duro (latter four not marked in these tables, but in other comparable
tables though). Michelin Dynamic is also probably better than
Ultrasport, for about the same price or cheaper.

Table like these only format correctly if you use spaces rather than
tabs.

41 said:

I guess you could say, from Google. That is, searching RBT. The big set
is from TOUR magazine (German), another set is from I don't know where,
and I think a third (actually I believe it is the second) was from an
airless tire company. I didn't record in the file who did what, but as
you can see they are all pretty consistent. So is the Avocet test data
that is in the form of graphs that are referred to frequently. It seems
to me in some post I did not too long ago I translated those Avocet
data into Crr. I think it was when the TOUR tests first came out.

Thanks for the info. The other lists I've seen are pretty old by now.
NIce to see some newer data.

Quoted message said:

By the way, are your current Road Winners from Japan or Korea, and what
width are they in real life? 28 or 25? And do you have tanwall or
blackwall? I am wondering if they were resized or relabelled when
production shifted to Korea, like Avocets were. Thinking of stocking up
mail order and wanting to be sure of what I am getting.

I use my oldest ones first, so I still have a bunch of newer ones in
storage. But they all have tan sidewalls and the same labels, so I'm
guessing they were all made in Japan. The ones I've mounted measure 25
mm on the rim. All bought from Nashbar, but I didn't see them in the
latest catalog. Currently listed on their website on sale at $9.95.

Art Harris

I see many replies here - mostly saying that tyre weght won't be very
noticable. I've just finished a season of hilly criteriums in Crystal
Palace, in London, UK - during which I raced with a variety of tyres
(Conti Supersonics, Mich Pro Race 2, and even a set of Specilized
Armadillos). I also tried out some different wheels (Campag Eurus,
Zonda and Vento), and different tubes (Bontager [censored], Mich A1, Conti
Supersonic Tubes).

The weight difference from the lightest combination to the heaviest was
around 500g in total, and I would say the difference was stark in
several different ways:
- Saving weight off wheels and tyres seems to make a difference during
racing, esp. when accellerating, cornering and climbing. Whether the
difference is as valuable for commutting or social riding, I couldn't
say.
- The lightest combination turned out to have almost zero puncture
resistance - something that caused me unplanned early exists from
several races. In contrast, the heaviest combination didn't puncture
even once all year.

So, in the end I settled on lighter wheels, and few extra grams on
tyres for puncture resistance - and that worked a treat.

R.

Artoi said:

My bike presently has a set of Conti UltraSport 700cX25. If I change it
to a set of new Grand Prix 4000 with a saving of 115g/tyre, what
practical differences would I be able to feel during my rides? Is it a
weight saving that'll be obvious?

Thanks.
--

Artoi said:

I was more interested in the dynamic effect of tyre weight. Just curious
what 115g/wheel difference would make to the ride.

As for the type of riding, well, definitely no races. Mostly exercises
around cycle paths as well as on roads. Weekly rides on the road with a
friend around 30km. But we do have a lot of hills here in Sydney and
figured the reduced dynamic weight may make climbing a bit easier. But
just can't quantify it as to by how much.

"Less time than it takes to fix a flat" <g>.

But, there's no substitute for experience when it comes to preferences.
Buy 'em and try 'em!
--D-y

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Artoi said:

My bike presently has a set of Conti UltraSport 700cX25. If I change
it to a set of new Grand Prix 4000 with a saving of 115g/tyre, what
practical differences would I be able to feel during my rides? Is it
a weight saving that'll be obvious?

No.

Put it this way- do you notice the difference between full and empty
water bottles? A 24 ounce water bottle weighs its own weight plus 710
grams for the water, more than 6 times the weight savings of the lighter
tire. If you don't notice the difference between a full and empty water
bottle, you won't notice the lighter tire.

Come on Tim, we all know that water bottle is NOT *rotating weight*....

bfd said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Artoi said:

My bike presently has a set of Conti UltraSport 700cX25. If I change
it to a set of new Grand Prix 4000 with a saving of 115g/tyre, what
practical differences would I be able to feel during my rides? Is it
a weight saving that'll be obvious?

No.

Put it this way- do you notice the difference between full and empty
water bottles? A 24 ounce water bottle weighs its own weight plus 710
grams for the water, more than 6 times the weight savings of the lighter
tire. If you don't notice the difference between a full and empty water
bottle, you won't notice the lighter tire.

Come on Tim, we all know that water bottle is NOT *rotating weight*....

Dear BFD,

Does splashing weight count?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Now tape a pair of 60 gram weights to opposite spokes and spin it up
again. Joe Riel has pointed out that modern pennies (post 1982) are
about 2.5 grams, so 24 cents should be about right.

Surely that would make you mostly notice the imbalance? Wouldn't the
difference between similar front and rear wheels be an easier
approximation? (Sure, the extra weight is closer to the middle, but
there's typically also a lot more or it.)

Quoted message said:

bfd said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Artoi <[email hidden]> wrote:

> My bike presently has a set of Conti UltraSport 700cX25. If I change
> it to a set of new Grand Prix 4000 with a saving of 115g/tyre, what
> practical differences would I be able to feel during my rides? Is it
> a weight saving that'll be obvious?

No.

Put it this way- do you notice the difference between full and empty
water bottles? A 24 ounce water bottle weighs its own weight plus 710
grams for the water, more than 6 times the weight savings of the lighter
tire. If you don't notice the difference between a full and empty water
bottle, you won't notice the lighter tire.

Come on Tim, we all know that water bottle is NOT *rotating weight*....

Dear BFD,

Does splashing weight count?

I don't know, ask Floyd Landis. Then again, doped or not, he probably
was, he did power up those 5 climbs using powertap hub which easily
adds over a pound to the bike. Didn't seem to hurt him. Of course, if
you're doped up, probably nothing short of a bulldozer would...