What got you spending the cash?

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Luigi de

Guzman) said:

in the vein of all the recent new-bikie threads...

I got a phone call from my friend S the other day:

"Hey. Are you in-country this summer?"

"Yeah. I'll have to stick around London, though; I'll be writing-up the thesis...."

"Oh. I was wondering if you wanted to ride from Lands' End to John O'Groats.."

S has recently decided that riding a bike is actually great fun, & wanted to know if I could
recommend a bike that could carry panniers...and I told him. Of course, what I told him was a bike
that would cost on the order of UKP 400. "Oh. he said. I was hoping 200 or so.."

That got me thinking. What got me to the point where I was willing to drop USD 500 on a bicycle?

You decided you liked the sport.

Quoted message said:

I suppose it was easy for me; I already liked bicycles a lot, & I had a a pretty good idea of
what I did and didn't want. I lucked out at the pawnshop with the old raleigh...& when that
broke, I took the advice of the local used-bike dealer: "You're a strong young lad. Go buy
yourself a new bike!

Do we all have to go through a cheap--i'm thinking USD 70 or so--bike before we decide what we
want? & when we give new bikies buying advice, do we really advise them or are we really buying
for ourselves in the past tense? Is it really about the bike?

I think this is close to true. For most people dipping a toe into cycling, the idea of committing
$500-1000 on a bicycle and related equipment is ludicrous. What you do is ride what you have or can
scrounge. A lot of people do this and...nothing. They become non-cyclists in a matter of weeks. My
dad has bike-commuted on and off for years, but he's back into it seriously again, and I like to
think that the half-decent bike I gave him (a garage-sale find, but like the best garage-sale bike
ever, except maybe for Dave's Pinarello) helped.

For those of us who keep riding, it's a matter of using that bike to figure out what isn't working.

Quoted message said:

I've seen people doing surprising distances on POS bikes. I've seen bicycles costing many
times the worth of both of mine combined ridden by incompetents. When did the equipment make
it more fun?

The equipment takes care of annoyances. These can be simple but keenly felt, like the wrong saddle,
or obvious failures, like worn-out parts or bad French shifting.

In my case, I decided that this year I would go racing. In choosing to do so, I figured that within
reason bike weight and quality were not going to make a big difference (trans: race the $10 Mikado),
but trying to friction-shift DT shifters would [censored] me off at every race, because I'm not very good
at it and there's a good, recent technological solution. (trans: buy brifteurs).

So I went out and bought a bike with a Sora brifteur on it. It was cheap, and it works. And hey,
I've won one race on it, so there ya go!

Of course, then I went and bought a carbon fork for this bike, but there my special excuse was that
the carbon fork is weatherproof, and the chromed fork was pitting badly! See how it works? The 250 g
saving is, of course, immaterial.
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

"Luigi de Guzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in the vein of all the recent new-bikie threads...

I got a phone call from my friend S the other day:

"Hey. Are you in-country this summer?"

"Yeah. I'll have to stick around London, though; I'll be writing-up the thesis...."

"Oh. I was wondering if you wanted to ride from Lands' End to John O'Groats.."

S has recently decided that riding a bike is actually great fun, & wanted to know if I could
recommend a bike that could carry panniers...and I told him. Of course, what I told him was a bike
that would cost on the order of UKP 400. "Oh. he said. I was hoping 200 or so.."

That got me thinking. What got me to the point where I was willing to drop USD 500 on a bicycle?

I suppose it was easy for me; I already liked bicycles a lot, & I had a a pretty good idea of
what I did and didn't want. I lucked out at the pawnshop with the old raleigh...& when that
broke, I took the advice of the local used-bike dealer: "You're a strong young lad. Go buy
yourself a new bike!

Do we all have to go through a cheap--i'm thinking USD 70 or so--bike before we decide what we
want? & when we give new bikies buying advice, do we really advise them or are we really buying
for ourselves in the past tense? Is it really about the bike?

I've seen people doing surprising distances on POS bikes. I've seen bicycles costing many
times the worth of both of mine combined ridden by incompetents. When did the equipment make
it more fun?

No answers, no axe to grind. Just wondering.

-Luigi

A very good question, Luigi. This one has a lengthy answer.

When I was about 7 or 8 yrs old, my Dad bought a pickup truck load of old bikes from a neighbor for
$5. I put together as many Frankenbikes from that pile of scrap as my imagination could configure.
Not being allowed to weld or use power tools, I was limited to "Tinkertoy" customizations. I did
build a super-radical chopper with an 8-foot-long fork; but it bent in half on a hard landing. Those
early years of tinkering galvanized my love for bikes of all types at an early age. I had a BMX bike
before BMX was really a sport, and used to dirt jump and race my friends every single day until I
outgrew my 20" bike.

I bought my first good bike - a Schwinn LeTour - in 1978, for $120. I rode that LeTour (which was
too big for me) as often as I could, in any weather, for over 5 years. Then I bought a beautiful
silver Fuji road bike for $350 in 1984. That was over a weeks pay for me at the time (1984). The
Fuji was stolen, and I bought a red & white Miyata 512 in 1988. Great bike. Paid $400 for that one.
I actually *wanted* BioPace chainrings - even though they weren't fashionable at the time.

It wasn't until I discovered mountain bikes that I started really spending the money. I remember
talking to a local offroad biking enthusiast about his new Bianchi hardtail in 1992. He told me he
spend $950 on his bike. Nine hundred and fifty dollars??!!! I thought he was nuts. A few short years
later, the same bug that had bitten him also bit me. After that, I thought very little of spending
$850 to $900 on a *used* bike (carbon, titanium, full XTR). That's when the "jones" really hit me. I
wanted to try every kind of bike I could find, especially high-end mountain bikes. They're so
versatile for so many things, and not limited to paved roads or trails. Once I had a couple of good
mountain bikes, I wanted to try more: Carbon, titanium, steel, aluminum, rigid, hardtail, full
suspension, XTR, XT, etc, etc.

For me, it has always been about the bikes. Riding is for me a Zen experience: I ride to ride. I am
entirely in the moment, sailing along under my own power. I belong to a cycling club, and it's a lot
of fun; but I still prefer the solitary riding experience most of the time.

I'm finally designing with the intent of building one or more entirely custom recumbent low racer
bikes. This is the logical arc for me. I'm going back to my tinkering roots; but this time I have
the power tools and the welder.

Now, if I just had a garage...

Tailwinds,

Barry

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:Tc3pa.561641$3D1.311843@sccrnsc01:

Quoted message said:

"Luigi de Guzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in the vein of all the recent new-bikie threads...

I got a phone call from my friend S the other day:

"Hey. Are you in-country this summer?"

"Yeah. I'll have to stick around London, though; I'll be writing-up the thesis...."

"Oh. I was wondering if you wanted to ride from Lands' End to John O'Groats.."

S has recently decided that riding a bike is actually great fun, & wanted to know if I could
recommend a bike that could carry panniers...and I told him. Of course, what I told him was a
bike that would cost on the order of UKP 400. "Oh. he said. I was hoping 200 or so.."

That got me thinking. What got me to the point where I was willing to drop USD 500 on a bicycle?

I suppose it was easy for me; I already liked bicycles a lot, & I had a a pretty good idea of
what I did and didn't want. I lucked out at the pawnshop with the old raleigh...& when that
broke, I took the advice of the local used-bike dealer: "You're a strong young lad. Go buy
yourself a new bike!

Do we all have to go through a cheap--i'm thinking USD 70 or so--bike before we decide what we
want? & when we give new bikies buying advice, do we really advise them or are we really buying
for ourselves in the past tense? Is it really about the bike?

I've seen people doing surprising distances on POS bikes. I've seen bicycles costing many
times the worth of both of mine combined ridden by incompetents. When did the equipment make
it more fun?

No answers, no axe to grind. Just wondering.

-Luigi

A very good question, Luigi. This one has a lengthy answer.

When I was about 7 or 8 yrs old, my Dad bought a pickup truck load of old bikes from a neighbor
for $5. I put together as many Frankenbikes from that pile of scrap as my imagination could
configure. Not being allowed to weld or use power tools, I was limited to "Tinkertoy"
customizations. I did build a super-radical chopper with an 8-foot-long fork; but it bent in half
on a hard landing. Those early years of tinkering galvanized my love for bikes of all types at an
early age. I had a BMX bike before BMX was really a sport, and used to dirt jump and race my
friends every single day until I outgrew my 20" bike.

I bought my first good bike - a Schwinn LeTour - in 1978, for $120. I rode that LeTour (which was
too big for me) as often as I could, in any weather, for over 5 years. Then I bought a beautiful
silver Fuji road bike for $350 in 1984. That was over a weeks pay for me at the time (1984). The
Fuji was stolen, and I bought a red & white Miyata 512 in 1988. Great bike. Paid $400 for that
one. I actually *wanted* BioPace chainrings - even though they weren't fashionable at the time.

It wasn't until I discovered mountain bikes that I started really spending the money. I remember
talking to a local offroad biking enthusiast about his new Bianchi hardtail in 1992. He told me he
spend $950 on his bike. Nine hundred and fifty dollars??!!! I thought he was nuts. A few short
years later, the same bug that had bitten him also bit me. After that, I thought very little of
spending $850 to $900 on a *used* bike (carbon, titanium, full XTR). That's when the "jones"
really hit me. I wanted to try every kind of bike I could find, especially high-end mountain
bikes. They're so versatile for so many things, and not limited to paved roads or trails. Once I
had a couple of good mountain bikes, I wanted to try more: Carbon, titanium, steel, aluminum,
rigid, hardtail, full suspension, XTR, XT, etc, etc.

For me, it has always been about the bikes. Riding is for me a Zen experience: I ride to ride. I
am entirely in the moment, sailing along under my own power. I belong to a cycling club, and it's
a lot of fun; but I still prefer the solitary riding experience most of the time.

I'm finally designing with the intent of building one or more entirely custom recumbent low racer
bikes. This is the logical arc for me. I'm going back to my tinkering roots; but this time I have
the power tools and the welder.

Now, if I just had a garage...

Tailwinds,

Barry

I got a little Homer Simpson voice that says things like "Colnago C40 with B Stays. Mmmmm B Stays."
:-P And don't even get me started about Seven or Serrotta.

My bike progression was similar to yours, even down to the too big Schwinn Le Tour. I remember
riding my Sears Free Spirit until it died. That bike carried a lot of groceries. My first "nice"
bike was a Specialized Sirrus with all Shimano 105 It had that steep 80's geometry, (74 head and 74
seat)and ,uh, Biopace. I saw the ads in Bicycling and I thought I had arrived, heh. It was stolen
after two years. Since then I've ran through about eight bikes, some new, some kit bashed.

I think I've always been this way.

Luigi de Guzman said:

in the vein of all the recent new-bikie threads...

I got a phone call from my friend S the other day:

"Hey. Are you in-country this summer?"

"Yeah. I'll have to stick around London, though; I'll be writing-up the thesis...."

"Oh. I was wondering if you wanted to ride from Lands' End to John O'Groats.."

-Luigi

If you do want to ride from Land's End to John o'Groats take these directions.

Land's End: Join the A30 at Trevescan: Continue on the A30 past Penzance (watch out for pirates) :
Join the M5 at junction 31 south of Exeter: Join the M6 at W. Bromwich towards Stafford and Stoke on
Trent: Leave the M6 at juction 44 Carlisle North and join the A74: Join the A74(M) at junction 22
near Gretna: The A74(M) becomes the M74 at junction 13 near Abington: Continue on the M74 until
junction 4: Join the M73 north: At junction 3 of the M73, join the A80 east towards Cumbernauld and
Falkirk: Leave the A80 at junction 4, and join the M80 north: Leave the M80 and join the M9 towards
Perth: At junction 11 join the A9 and continue north: Turn onto the A99 at Latherton: Continue past
Wick, Keiss and the Stacks of Duncansby: John o'Groats. Roughly 835 miles, 1343 kilometres, 6680
furlongs and 267200 rods.

--
Cheers Damian Harvey

This space reserved for standard disclaimer, witty quote, plug for own business in caps and large,
bad ASCII art.

Quoted message said:

Do we all have to go through a cheap--i'm thinking USD 70 or so--bike before we decide what we
want? & when we give new bikies buying advice, do we really advise them or are we really buying for
ourselves in the past tense? Is it really about the bike?

I think we are trying to share our experiences with bicycles, both what we have observed with our
own experiences and by watching others.

My view is that it is best to start with what I term a "decent bike" which translates into a Bike
Shop entry level bike or something slightly better, stainless steel spokes and a real seat post are
probably the two waterlines for
me.

Quoted message said:

I've seen people doing surprising distances on POS bikes. I've seen bicycles costing many times the
worth of both of mine combined ridden by incompetents. When did the equipment make it more fun?

I personally enjoy hopping on my Eddy Merckx or my Paramount and going for a ride. Those bikes (and
others like them) are just really a kick to ride. This is fun. Doing some single track on my MTB is
fun. These are things that got me spending the cash.

Breaking down, wobbly wheels, broken spokes, brakes that don't work in the rain or on steep
hills, seat posts that slip, seats that won't stay in the right place, index shifters that won't
index, stems that slip, bottom brackets that creak and groan, bikes that just don't fit, these
things are not fun.

It is my view that equipment ought to be reliable, comfortable and safe, beyond that, the rest is
just frosting on the cake.

It is probably true that some people ride POS's long distances but it is rare in my experience. The
vast majority of riders I see riding long distances are riding decent bikes.

I ran into a fellow while we were camping by the Colorado river who was doing a 1000 mile self
supported tour of California deserts. He was riding slightly above entry level rigid forked MTB.
Looked to be a good bike for this. This of course is not a POS but a decent bike.

Had a friend who computed about 35 miles a day on a 15 year old Specialized Stumpjumper, again not a
POS, but rather a bike that was ideal for the task. Probably be hard to buy a new bike today that is
as good a commuter as that StumpJumper was. 26 inch wheels, a near road type fit, no suspension
forks or suspension seat post, had the eyelets for a rack.. nice lugged frame, just a great bike for
hauling stuff and not breaking down.

Decent bike, that all one needs.

Jon Isaacs

Luigi de Guzman said:

Do we all have to go through a cheap--i'm thinking USD 70 or so--bike before we decide what we
want? & when we give new bikies buying advice, do we really advise them or are we really buying
for ourselves in the past tense? Is it really about the bike?

I've seen people doing surprising distances on POS bikes. I've seen bicycles costing many
times the worth of both of mine combined ridden by incompetents. When did the equipment make
it more fun?

I started out at about age 6 on various single speed, coaster brake style bikes. By the time I was
12, I was doing occasional rides of 50+ miles with my friends on bikes like that. Then one of my
friends bought a ten speed (circa 1962 - I think it was a Gitane "Tour de France"😉 for the princely
sum of $100. I was green with envy, but kept on riding my old clunker.

In the mid '70s, I bought a low end Fuji ten speed for $120 and loved
it. That's when I started reading about bikes and studying the various catalogs. Since then,
I've had four more road bikes (three of which I built up from bare frames). None of them
cost more than $1000. (The most recent one was built up two years ago on a NOS frame I got
on eBay for $130.)

People who haven't bought a bike since their youth tend to think bikes should still cost what they
did 20 years ago, and they suffer severe sticker shock when they walk into a bike shop today. On
the other hand, "serious" cyclists often put too much emphasis on the bike and spend far more than
they need to.

Is it really about the bike? Well, yes and no. Once you have a bike that's reliable and
appropriate for what you want to do, you probably won't increase your enjoyment much by spending a
lot more money.

Art Harris

Damian Harvey <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<3EA4F7D3.

<snips useful directions>

...sounds scary. Besides, aren't cycles prohibited from motorways and A(M) roads?

-Luigi

Jon Isaacs said:

Had a friend who computed about 35 miles a day on a 15 year old Specialized Stumpjumper, again not
a POS, but rather a bike that was ideal for the task. Probably be hard to buy a new bike today
that is as good a commuter as that StumpJumper was. 26 inch wheels, a near road type fit, no
suspension forks or suspension seat post, had the eyelets for a rack.. nice lugged frame, just a
great bike for hauling stuff and not breaking down.

Marin has a few bikes like that in its "urban" category. A simple workhorse for commuting and urban
street riding:

marinbikes.comspec novato.htmlOpen ↗
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA terrymorse.combikeOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Art Harris)

wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

People who haven't bought a bike since their youth tend to think bikes should still cost what they
did 20 years ago, and they suffer severe sticker shock when they walk into a bike shop today. On
the other hand, "serious" cyclists often put too much emphasis on the bike and spend far more than
they need to.

Is it really about the bike? Well, yes and no. Once you have a bike that's reliable and
appropriate for what you want to do, you probably won't increase your enjoyment much by spending a
lot more money.

I confess to being one of your >"serious" cyclists that spend more than they need< I'm not now nor
will I ever be rich. OTOH, I manage to pay my bills and firmly believe that you can't take it with
you. I would never advise a new rider, "Buy only the top line stuff." both because the prices of the
top line gear would discourage new riders and because "best" is a subjective judgement. What I
*would* advise anyone is to identify and buy the best they can afford. Bikes that break down, wheels
that snap spokes, derailleurs with adjusting screws that strip out, chamois pads that aren't
comfortable, jerseys with no pockets (AKA- tshirts).... would all make cycling less enjoyable. I
don't mean that you *must* buy Record or DuraAce if you prefer. My own road bike is mostly Chorus
with a few Record touches but let's not go too far the other way. I don't know anyone that has ever
regretted buying the best they could afford.

Regards, Bob Hunt

Hunrobe said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Art Harris)

Quoted message said:

wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is it really about the bike? Well, yes and no. Once you have a bike that's reliable and
appropriate for what you want to do, you probably won't increase your enjoyment much by spending
a lot more money.

Quoted message said:

I confess to being one of your >"serious" cyclists that spend more than they need< I'm not now nor
will I ever be rich. OTOH, I manage to pay my bills and firmly believe that you can't take it with
you. I would never advise a new rider, "Buy only the top line stuff." both because the prices of
the top line gear would discourage new riders and because "best" is a subjective judgement. What I
*would* advise anyone is to identify and buy the best they can afford. Bikes that break down,
wheels that snap spokes, derailleurs with adjusting screws that strip out, would all make cycling
less enjoyable.

I have no problem with someone upgrading to Record or Dura Ace if they want to, though I doubt they
would have any less fun using Centaur or Ultegra.

But often the most expensive "stupid light" stuff (e.g., frames, wheels, bars) is less durable than
more moderately priced equipment.

Note that I used the words "reliable" and "appropriate" in my original post as the main criteria.

Art Harris

Jon Isaacs said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do we all have to go through a cheap--i'm thinking USD 70 or so--bike before we decide what we
want? & when we give new bikies buying advice, do we really advise them or are we really buying
for ourselves in the past tense? Is it really about the bike?

I think we are trying to share our experiences with bicycles, both what we have observed with our
own experiences and by watching others.

My view is that it is best to start with what I term a "decent bike" which translates into a Bike
Shop entry level bike or something slightly better, stainless steel spokes and a real seat post
are probably the two waterlines for
me.

Quoted message said:

I've seen people doing surprising distances on POS bikes. I've seen bicycles costing many
times the worth of both of mine combined ridden by incompetents. When did the equipment make
it more fun?

I personally enjoy hopping on my Eddy Merckx or my Paramount and going for a ride. Those bikes
(and others like them) are just really a kick to ride. This is fun. Doing some single track on my
MTB is fun. These are things that got me spending the cash.

Breaking down, wobbly wheels, broken spokes, brakes that don't work in the rain or on steep hills,
seat posts that slip, seats that won't stay in the right place, index shifters that won't index,
stems that slip, bottom brackets that creak and groan, bikes that just don't fit, these things are
not fun.

It is my view that equipment ought to be reliable, comfortable and safe, beyond that, the rest is
just frosting on the cake.

It is probably true that some people ride POS's long distances but it is rare in my experience.
The vast majority of riders I see riding long distances are riding decent bikes.

I ran into a fellow while we were camping by the Colorado river who was doing a 1000 mile self
supported tour of California deserts. He was riding slightly above entry level rigid forked MTB.
Looked to be a good bike for this. This of course is not a POS but a decent bike.

Had a friend who computed about 35 miles a day on a 15 year old Specialized Stumpjumper, again not
a POS, but rather a bike that was ideal for the task. Probably be hard to buy a new bike today
that is as good a commuter as that StumpJumper was. 26 inch wheels, a near road type fit, no
suspension forks or suspension seat post, had the eyelets for a rack.. nice lugged frame, just a
great bike for hauling stuff and not breaking down.

Decent bike, that all one needs.

Jon Isaacs

I also think that my Trek 930 Singletrack, ca 1992, also fits that description.

Sam

"Art Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

People who haven't bought a bike since their youth tend to

think bikes

Quoted message said:

should still cost what they did 20 years ago, and they

suffer severe

Quoted message said:

sticker shock when they walk into a bike shop today. On

the other

Quoted message said:

hand, "serious" cyclists often put too much emphasis on

the bike and

Quoted message said:

spend far more than they need to.

It seems to me bikes are cheaper than they've ever been, adjusted for inflation and all that. The
big difference is that even cheap bikes work pretty well. A decade ago, you had to spend at least
$500 to get a mountain bike that wouldn't fall apart. Now a $300 bike has equipment that's as good
as a $500 bike was back then. Go back a few years more, and those original Stumpjumpers, etc. were
like $800, in 80s dollars. And they really didn't work all that great -- with lousy shifting and
braking compared to a $300 bike today. You could get a solid touring bike then for about
$400-something. Adjusted for inflation, a Fuji Touring or Bianchi Volpe is probably cheaper today,
but also works a lot better -- out of the box. Back then, you almost always had to replace stuff to
get the bike to work as it should. At the very least you'd want to redo the cables and retension the
wheels. They always skimped on something. That's not true anymore.

Quoted message said:

Is it really about the bike? Well, yes and no. Once you

have a bike

Quoted message said:

that's reliable and appropriate for what you want to do,

you probably

Quoted message said:

won't increase your enjoyment much by spending a lot more

money.

This is true. Once you get something that fits and works and doesn't fall apart, it isn't about the
bike anymore. Years ago that was a challenge itself -- look at all those old hyper-geek articles
about gearing and whatnot. You don't have to worry about any of that today -- most bikes work well
enough for most people, right out of the box. Perhaps this is the real reason for the downfall of
bike magazines -- there's nothing *about bikes* for them to write about anymore.

Matt O.

Luigi de Guzman said:

...sounds scary. Besides, aren't cycles prohibited from motorways and A(M) roads?

-Luigi

God only knows, I bought Schott's Original Miscellany the other day and remembered seeing something
about John o'Groats, I had to look up the atlas after I posted to find out exactly where I sent you.
Turns out to be from bottom to top of Britain. www.miscellanies.info

--
Cheers Damian Harvey

Remember, It's only illegal if you get caught.

Jon Isaacs said:

Had a friend who computed about 35 miles a day on a 15 year old Specialized Stumpjumper, again not
a POS, but rather a bike that was ideal for the task. Probably be hard to buy a new bike today
that is as good a commuter as that StumpJumper was. 26 inch wheels, a near road type fit, no
suspension forks or suspension seat post, had the eyelets for a rack.. nice lugged frame, just a
great bike for hauling stuff and not breaking down.

Decent bike, that all one needs.

Jon Isaacs

On the one hand, I'm in near total agreement, on the other hand, if your above statement is true,
how did you acquire a garage stuffed with bikes? Best regards, Bernie