What headlight do I need?

Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:53:06 -0800, SMS:

Quoted message said:

There is no way that the Lumotec 3W headlamp is sufficient for the
speeds that the original poster is contemplating in areas without any
other lighting. For a dynamo based system he's really looking at the
Dymotec 12 volt/6W dynamo.

If more light is only needed at fast speed, a secondary 3W headlamp
(Lumotec or E6) can be used with any gearless hub dynamo. Cheaper and
brighter than the Dymotec 12V.

Andreas

"SMS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Schorschi said:

- [email hidden] suggested a very bright and compact flash
light (STRION) fastened to the handlebars with a specialized velcro
strap. However, this one is rated putting out 80 vs. 85 lumens that the
Vega produces. So, I'm not sure what the benefit would be, other than
price. I question the stability of such a solution too and it would
probably be somewhat bulky on the handlebars.

This light is very small, the picture of it doesn't give a sense of the
size, but it is only 5.3" long.

Don't go just by lumens. The problem with the LED lights is that the
light from the LED isn't able to be focused into as usable a beam as
that from an incandescent bulb.

That simply isn't true.

A regular bulb down't put out any kind of beam at all. It needs a reflector
and/or lens arrangement to be any use at all. The LED is packaged cheaply
into a clear plastic package that forms it adequately well into a beam for
most cost-concious manuafacturers to scrap the reflector lens stages for
beam shaping.

SMS said:

There is no way that the Lumotec 3W headlamp is sufficient for the
speeds that the original poster is contemplating in areas without any
other lighting.

Then there's "no way" that I, and thousands upon thousands of other
cyclists, have been doing what we've been doing for many decades!

Quoted message said:

For a dynamo based system he's really looking at the
Dymotec 12 volt/6W dynamo.

I do it using a much, much less expensive dynamo. Get a dynamo headlamp
with good optics and almost any dynamo (generator) will do fine up to 20
mph. If more is wanted, a roller dynamo or hub dynamo can run two lamps.

- Frank Krygowski

SMS said:

Don't go just by lumens. The problem with the LED lights is that the
light from the LED isn't able to be focused into as usable a beam as
that from an incandescent bulb.

Good advice on the significance of lumens, but you have the rest of it
backward.

The problem with most LED lights is that they're too tightly focused, to
get a better lumen rating for marketing purposes. Again, look at the link
that was just posted, showing the beam patterns of several popular LED and
other lights:

http://eddys.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=493

Here you can see how the popular EL500, successor to the venerable Cateye
Micro, is actually quite bright -- but its beam is so tightly focused it's
practically useless. This is how you get a higher lumen score from a 1W
lamp than a 2.4W lamp. LEDs may be more efficient than halogens, but not
*that* much more efficient.

Have a good look at that Vega beam pattern too. From my experience with
many 10W halogens, I'd say it's comparable. The main beam is actually
brighter than a similarly focused 10W MR lamp, but the Vega has less
spillover. From that picture it seems brighter *and* wider than my 5W
Sunsport, again with less spillover. A little spillover is handy for
seeing overhanging branches, signs, etc. But to me the Vega looks very
promising.

Quoted message said:

Again, don't go just by lumens, you have to look at the beam pattern.
Even the 3W dynamo lights are going to be brighter, with a better beam,
than the Vega.

Howso? I've seen plenty of dynamo lights. The best ones, like the
Schmidt/Bisy, are probably comparable to the Vega. But the more common
ones like the Lumotec or Union are no brighter than a Cateye Micro, with
inconsistent, sometimes very uneven beam patterns.

Also, the overdriven 3W LED in the Vega is more efficient than a 2.4-3W
halogen. Before even considering optics, it should produce more light to
begin with. And the Vega's optics seem pretty good. Again, look at the
pictures at the link above.

*I'm told it's a nominal 3W LED, powered so it's drawing about 4W.

Quoted message said:

Of course you could always power the dynamo lights with a battery if
desired.

Sure, but you have to bolt the thing to your bike, where around here it
would be promptly unbolted by a lightfingered frat boy. The attraction of
the Vega is that it's completely self-contained and quick-release, like a
Micro, but has light output comparable to a separate-battery setup.

Quoted message said:

I'm sure the Vega will be fine, but you're pushing it at 20mph with 3W
LED lights.

It seems similar in output to my 5W halogen Sunsport, but with less
spillover. The Sunsport is just enough light to ride at 20 MPH -plus. On
familiar, relatively good roads it's plenty for that and more.

Quoted message said:

Read the review at
"http://www.beyondbikes.com/BB/ItemDesc.asp?IC=AC%2DLIG%2DVega"

"Throws a good foacused light beam, though not to far ahead."

So tilt it upward a bit. My Sunsport will illuminate signs hundreds of
feet away.

Get off the web and onto the road for once.

Matt O.

Andreas Oehler said:

If more light is only needed at fast speed, a secondary 3W headlamp
(Lumotec or E6) can be used with any gearless hub dynamo. Cheaper and
brighter than the Dymotec 12V.

Unfortunately, it isn't additive in terms of how far ahead the beams
will project. It will help in terms of illuminating a wider area of the
road, which is also useful.

In any case, the original poster isn't interested in a dynamo.

I actually had the same needs as he did, in terms of wanting a
self-contained light that could project a beam that was strong enough to
allow riding at around 20 mph. There used to be two bicycle lights that
met that need, and both were discontinued. These were the Specialized
Astro 5.0, and the Performance Viewpoint Lazer. The Streamlight Strion
is the only solution currently available, for a self-contained battery
powered light that is powerful enough for 20 mph riding.

SMS said:

I actually had the same needs as he did, in terms of wanting a
self-contained light that could project a beam that was strong enough to
allow riding at around 20 mph. There used to be two bicycle lights that
met that need, and both were discontinued. These were the Specialized
Astro 5.0, and the Performance Viewpoint Lazer.

This is the 6W Performance Lazer:

"http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000BB9W84/002-3918395-3160042?v=glance"

But no longer available.

Matt O'Toole said:

Quoted message said:

I have a $300 light system that is worthless now because the battery is
no longer available.

What kind of light is this?

It is a NiteRider with a 4.5v NiMH "smart" battery pack. Even with an
adapter, none of the batteries they sell now are 4.5v. The light was
never reliable, though. It would cut out entirely at (of course) the
worst times, and was somewhat unreliable in runtimes, even when the
battery was newer.

Quoted message said:

You can always get another battery. You can
either build one yourself, or have it done for you.

Yeah, I suppose I could cobble something together, but the diNotte is all
in all a better light. Beam pattern is better; more spread out rather
than as focused as the NiteRider. Batteries are off-the-shelf, and cheap,
and the whole thing weighs less than the headlamp of the NiteRider.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President
_`\(,_ | should on no account be allowed to do the job. -- Douglas Adams
(_)/ (_) |

SMS said:

In any case, the original poster isn't interested in a dynamo.

In America, there are many people who aren't interested in a dynamo
because they don't see them advertised, they don't see them in bike
shops, and they've never used a good one. If they remember any at all,
they dimly remember cheap, high-drag units they used back in the 1960s.

Also, for a long time, the American fashion was for 15, 20 or even 30+
watt MR-11 units. And as always, there were the alarmists saying "You
dare not ride with anything less."

Meanwhile, Europeans and Asians were doing real utility riding year
round with generators. People were randonneuring on rides like
Paris-Brest-Paris using good quality dynamo lights. And it's noteworthy
that manufacturers like Specialized and Breezer choose dynamo lights for
their utility bikes.

These days, the fashion is for LEDs. These show great promise, granted;
but they are not magic. The $50 Cateye CE-EL500 is not as good as my
generator set, as I found by riding alongside a guy who was using it.
And the brighter LEDs like the Dinotte are double to quadruple the price
of most decent quality generator sets.

Part of the problem, I think, is that it's too hard to compare lights.
Example: I picked up the current issue of the British magazine Cycling
Plus. They have comparison tests of about nine battery lights (most
LED, some not) and five generators, plus three generator headlamps.

Here's how they rated the light output from the battery lights:

"... run times surprisingly long considering the brightness..."
"... reliable bright lighting..."
"... a very bright LED set indeed ..."
"... it's not powerful enough to light the way unless you're going very
slowly ..."
"... powerful enough to ride with ..."
"... a reasonable amount of light ..."
"... light up the road like daylight ..." (for a 260 British pound
halide lamp)
"... quality of the light is great ..."
"... plenty of light for riding ..."

So we can surmise that the pricey metal halide is bright; the fourth one
is not. And the rest? How do they compare? Who can tell?

It would be _very_ helpful if manufacturers stated total lumen output
(which is, of course, independent of focus), then somehow described the
beam intensity and shape. Perhaps they could give the beam's intensity
(which _is_ affected by focus) in the center, and give the shape (round,
rectangular, etc.) of the hottest portion of the beam, in degrees
horizontal and degrees vertical.

With actual numbers, we could move beyond the present hand-waving rating
system.

Of course, people would have to actually learn a working understanding
of "lumen," "candlepower," etc.

- Frank Krygowski

Pete Biggs said:

Schorschi said:

- Can't justify to spend $300 or more for the high-powered HID and
Halogen lights.

Halogen needn't be that expensive.....

eg: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7199221030

Quoted message said:

- Want to avoid lighting systems with external batteries if at all
possible.

I kow it's some extra trouble but a separate battery keeps costs down and
versatility high, while providing loads of power.

There are times when a self-contained light is desirable. The mass
migration to self-contained LED headlights for the cheaper lights is
because of the extended run time they provide, they are now "being seen"
lights. Of course for many commuters, 10 hours of run time versus 90
minutes, is immaterial, since they will charge the batteries every night
when they get home, all that is needed is that the run time be enough
for their commute with a little margin.

It's too bad that the few high-power self-contained headlights are off
the market now. The Performance ViewPoint Lazer Headlight was a great
light; it wasn't a toy, and it was bright enough, and had a good beam
that was suitable for fast riding. The expectation is that anyone that
wants powerful lights for fast riding in the dark will opt for a
component system of separate pieces.

The Streamlight Strion wasn't intended to be a bicycle light, but in
fact is the best self-contained light that can be used for a bicycle, if
the 80 minute run time is sufficient. The Cyclops block from TwoFish
holds it very securely on the handlebars.

Quoting SMS <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

There is no way that the Lumotec 3W headlamp is sufficient for the
speeds that the original poster is contemplating in areas without any
other lighting.

You've flipflopped again. Last time you changed your mind, dynamos were
fine for riding out in the country but no good in towns. Do try and stick
to one set of nonsense!

[Curious to tell, I came back from Twyford on unlit roads at 3am just the
other day; I generally cruise at 20mph and since the terrain is rolling I
am obviously going faster downhill. No problem at all. But I must be
confused, since the selfproclaimed Greatest Lighting Expert in the
Universe says it can't be done.]
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?
Today is Second Sunday, November - a weekend.

Quoting Schorschi <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

- [email hidden] suggested a couple of dynamo driven solutions
(hub or sidewall). Sidewall is out of the question for me. Been there,
done that as a teenager. Hub dynamo sounds interesting, however, I
dread two things: cables (which I was trying to avoid) and the work
involved to change it over. The manufacturer of the Schmidt system even
recommends double wiring between the front and rear light for a more
reliable connection, i.e. not use the bike frame as a conductor.
Besides, wouldn't I need double-wiring for an aluminum bike anyway?

Aluminium conducts electricity!

Double wiring is not really more work than single wiring. All the dynamo
setups I have installed are double-wired, but I just use ordinary doorbell
wire which comes in double lengths anyway.

However - fond as *I* am of dynamo-driven rear lights because of the fact
that they are always ready to go - a lot of work can be saved by using an
ordinary battery-powered LED rear light. If you end up with a headlight
that comes with wires and spade connectors attached, you've then got no
more work to do than cable-tying the wire to the front fork.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?
Today is Second Sunday, November - a weekend.

:
: In America, there are many people who aren't interested in a dynamo
: because they don't see them advertised, they don't see them in bike
: shops, and they've never used a good one. If they remember any at all,
: they dimly remember cheap, high-drag units they used back in the 1960s.

I am one of those people because I remember those cheap units from my
childhood. Tell me how the newer ones are better. What I mean is, how can
they be measurably better, seeing that they operate on the same principle as
the old clunky ones?

: These days, the fashion is for LEDs. These show great promise, granted;
: but they are not magic. The $50 Cateye CE-EL500 is not as good as my
: generator set, as I found by riding alongside a guy who was using it.
: And the brighter LEDs like the Dinotte are double to quadruple the price
: of most decent quality generator sets.
:
:
: Part of the problem, I think, is that it's too hard to compare lights.

Bingo!

It is so d@#$n tiring to try and figure out the different light offerings
today.

Pat in TX

Pat said:

:
: In America, there are many people who aren't interested in a dynamo
: because they don't see them advertised, they don't see them in bike
: shops, and they've never used a good one. If they remember any at all,
: they dimly remember cheap, high-drag units they used back in the 1960s.

I am one of those people because I remember those cheap units from my
childhood. Tell me how the newer ones are better. What I mean is, how can
they be measurably better, seeing that they operate on the same principle as
the old clunky ones?

The new ones are much better. They are higher efficiency, and the ones
inside the hub solve the problems of slippage and tire wear. There is a
6W dynamo from Schmidt, though it is tire driven, as well as the very
efficient unit from Litespin. Of course all of this comes at a price. Go
over to "http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/lightingsystems.htm" and put
together a system of a hub dynamo, head light(s), and tail light and it
can get very expensive, since you'll need to either rebuild your wheel
or buy a new wheel with the hub dynamo built in. Even the more efficient
tire driven dynamos are a lot of money.

The cost, and the illumination is why most commuters opt for the battery
powered lights, even though this requires that batteries be kept charged.

Quoted message said:

: Part of the problem, I think, is that it's too hard to compare lights.

Bingo!

LED lights are great "being seen" lights. The problem with LEDs is that
when you overdrive them to get higher wattage, such as the Luxeon 5W,
you have thermal issues that shorten the LED life (similar to what
happens when you over-voltage incandescent filaments, with the
difference being that a replacement MR11 or MR16 lamp is only a few
dollars, versus many times that amount for a Luxeon 5W replacement).
This is why the cheaper LED lights use multiple lower power LEDs, with
the problem of collimating the separate LEDs into a usable beam. The
only LED light that appears to be really suitable for fast riding, and
excellent illumination, is the $209 DiNotte Ultralight.

SMS said:

The new ones are much better. They are higher efficiency, and the ones
inside the hub solve the problems of slippage and tire wear.

For a price, Louie, for a price.

Quoted message said:

LED lights are great "being seen" lights. The problem with LEDs is that
when you overdrive them to get higher wattage, such as the Luxeon 5W,
you have thermal issues that shorten the LED life (similar to what
happens when you over-voltage incandescent filaments, with the
difference being that a replacement MR11 or MR16 lamp is only a few
dollars, versus many times that amount for a Luxeon 5W replacement).

But a 5W Luxeon is not simply an over-driven LED. My DiNotte does not
appreciably heat up; much less so than my previous (15w halogen) light.
The Vega is over-driven (a 3W led driven to something like 3.8W).

Quoted message said:

only LED light that appears to be really suitable for fast riding, and
excellent illumination, is the $209 DiNotte Ultralight.

That's what I have, but I don't know about the Vega in terms of brightness.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Let's be straight here. If we find something we can't
_`\(,_ | understand we like to call it something you can't understand, or
(_)/ (_) | indeed even pronounce. -- Douglas Adams

David L. Johnson said:

But a 5W Luxeon is not simply an over-driven LED.

Well if you read the Luxeon specifications, the way they are getting the
higher brightness LEDs is to improve the heat dissipation in order to
allow an increase in current to increase the light output. This is why
the DiNotte is constructed the way it is, they have to get dissipate the
heat when that much current is going through the diode. Thermal design
is the key issue when using Luxeon products. Read the thermal design
guide at "http://www.luxeon.com/pdfs/AB05.pdf"

It isn't all that different from the way people put elaborate cooling
solutions onto other semiconductors, in order to run them faster (higher
current).

Pat said:

:
: In America, there are many people who aren't interested in a dynamo
: because they don't see them advertised, they don't see them in bike
: shops, and they've never used a good one. If they remember any at all,
: they dimly remember cheap, high-drag units they used back in the 1960s.

I am one of those people because I remember those cheap units from my
childhood. Tell me how the newer ones are better. What I mean is, how can
they be measurably better, seeing that they operate on the same principle as
the old clunky ones?

For comparison: A 2005 Toyota Camry operates on the same principle as a
Ford Model T.

A 2005 Apple Powerbook operates on the same principle as a Commodore
Vic-20.

.... and so on.

The new generators typically have much lower drag, last much, much
longer, have better mounting hardware, don't use the frame as a ground,
come with halogen bulbs (not vacuum), and have better headlamp optics.

- Frank Krygowski

David L. Johnson said:

SMS said:

The new ones are much better. They are higher efficiency, and the ones
inside the hub solve the problems of slippage and tire wear.

For a price, Louie, for a price.

Hub units are pricier, but even modern bottle units are far better than
what people remember from their teen years. And they are not
particularly expensive. Certainly cheaper than most high-powered
incandescents or LEDs!

- Frank Krygowski

David Damerell said:

[Curious to tell, I came back from Twyford on unlit roads at 3am just
the other day; I generally cruise at 20mph and since the terrain is
rolling I am obviously going faster downhill. No problem at all. But
I must be confused, since the selfproclaimed Greatest Lighting Expert
in the Universe says it can't be done.]

You are more than confused, David, you are Terminally Bewildered. About
three weeks ago I rode from Didcot to Sonning Common in the dark, over
similar terrain. Not only was the electricity to power my front light
generated by a (whispers) bottle dynamo, but the light itself was a B&M
DLumotec Topal Plus -
URL:http://www.amba-marketing.com/products.php?cid=5&pid=326 It is a good
thing that I have a tame owl who perches on my shoulder and tells me which
way the road goes, as otherwise I should have crashed and burned at the very
first bend in teh road.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
And then there was light and He thought it was good, so He threw the
receipt away.

SMS said:

Pat said:

:
: In America, there are many people who aren't interested in a dynamo
: because they don't see them advertised, they don't see them in bike
: shops, and they've never used a good one. If they remember any at all,
: they dimly remember cheap, high-drag units they used back in the 1960s.

I am one of those people because I remember those cheap units from my
childhood. Tell me how the newer ones are better. What I mean is, how
can they be measurably better, seeing that they operate on the same
principle as the old clunky ones?

The new ones are much better. They are higher efficiency, and the ones
inside the hub solve the problems of slippage and tire wear. There is a
6W dynamo from Schmidt, though it is tire driven, as well as the very
efficient unit from Litespin. Of course all of this comes at a price. Go
over to "http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/lightingsystems.htm" and put
together a system of a hub dynamo, head light(s), and tail light and it
can get very expensive, since you'll need to either rebuild your wheel
or buy a new wheel with the hub dynamo built in. Even the more efficient
tire driven dynamos are a lot of money.

The cost, and the illumination is why most commuters opt for the battery
powered lights, even though this requires that batteries be kept charged.

Quoted message said:

: Part of the problem, I think, is that it's too hard to compare lights.

Bingo!

LED lights are great "being seen" lights. The problem with LEDs is that
when you overdrive them to get higher wattage, such as the Luxeon 5W,
you have thermal issues that shorten the LED life (similar to what
happens when you over-voltage incandescent filaments, with the
difference being that a replacement MR11 or MR16 lamp is only a few
dollars, versus many times that amount for a Luxeon 5W replacement).
This is why the cheaper LED lights use multiple lower power LEDs, with
the problem of collimating the separate LEDs into a usable beam. The
only LED light that appears to be really suitable for fast riding, and
excellent illumination, is the $209 DiNotte Ultralight.

I've been riding with 5 watt luxeons for quite a while and I don't have
any of the problems that people keep going on about. Try using them
instead of flicking through the data sheets.

Marty

Marty said:

I've been riding with 5 watt luxeons for quite a while and I don't have
any of the problems that people keep going on about. Try using them
instead of flicking through the data sheets.

As, I stated, the DiNotte Ultralight, which is a 5 watt Luxeon light,
appears to be fine.