What was I doing wrong?

Were you keeping your weight as far back as possible?

On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:02:40 GMT, David Newman <[email hidden]> wrote=
:

Quoted message said:

Today, I was going downhill kinda fast on a fairly steep jeep road. I
was riding my first full-suspension bike, which I have only had for a
few weeks. There were big waterbars across the trail, the kind made wi=

th

Quoted message said:

a mound of dirt, not rocks or rubber or anything blocky. I was trying =

to

Quoted message said:

roll over the waterbbars (which were smooth in profile) rather than
trying to get air because I couldn't really see what the landing
conditions were like. I braked before the waterbars to slow down, so a=

s

Quoted message said:

not to get air, and I released the brakes just before I hit the trough=

Quoted message said:

on the uphill side of the waterbars in order to roll through. In spite=

Quoted message said:

of my slowing down, a couple of these water bars seemed to cause the
rear wheel of the bike to kick or buck, causing me to ride a front-whe=

el

Quoted message said:

wheelie down the downhill side of the waterbar. This seems really
dangerous to me, and I'd like to know how to prevent it in the future.=

Quoted message said:

Hence my question: what was I doing wrong in these conditions?

If I slowed down even more, it didn't happen, but that can't be the
whole story since a companion who was riding at roughly the same speed=

Quoted message said:

didn't have the problem. Unfortunately we could not pinpoint what the
difference between our riding techniques was.

Thanks for any advice,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dave

Sounds like maybe your rear shock isn't setup properly for you. Why don'=
t =

you post the make/model of your bike and shock. Also mention how you hav=
e =

it setup (i.e., spring rate or air pressure)and your weight.

::::
Slacker

"David Newman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Today, I was going downhill kinda fast on a fairly steep jeep road. I
was riding my first full-suspension bike, which I have only had for a
few weeks. There were big waterbars across the trail, the kind made with
a mound of dirt, not rocks or rubber or anything blocky. I was trying to
roll over the waterbbars (which were smooth in profile) rather than
trying to get air because I couldn't really see what the landing
conditions were like. I braked before the waterbars to slow down, so as
not to get air, and I released the brakes just before I hit the trough
on the uphill side of the waterbars in order to roll through. In spite
of my slowing down, a couple of these water bars seemed to cause the
rear wheel of the bike to kick or buck, causing me to ride a front-wheel
wheelie down the downhill side of the waterbar. This seems really
dangerous to me, and I'd like to know how to prevent it in the future.
Hence my question: what was I doing wrong in these conditions?

If I slowed down even more, it didn't happen, but that can't be the
whole story since a companion who was riding at roughly the same speed
didn't have the problem. Unfortunately we could not pinpoint what the
difference between our riding techniques was.

Thanks for any advice,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dave

I kinda manual them by lifting the front wheel as I approach and when it
touches the top I unweight the rear slightly. You can also bunny hop them
if they aren't too tall for you. As Slacker suggested your rebound on the
rear shock may be too fast. Turn it in a couple clicks if you have such an
adjustment.

Mike

David Newman said...

Quoted message said:

Today, I was going downhill kinda fast on a fairly steep jeep road. I
was riding my first full-suspension bike, which I have only had for a
few weeks. There were big waterbars across the trail, the kind made with
a mound of dirt, not rocks or rubber or anything blocky. I was trying to
roll over the waterbbars (which were smooth in profile) rather than
trying to get air because I couldn't really see what the landing
conditions were like. I braked before the waterbars to slow down, so as
not to get air, and I released the brakes just before I hit the trough
on the uphill side of the waterbars in order to roll through. In spite
of my slowing down, a couple of these water bars seemed to cause the
rear wheel of the bike to kick or buck, causing me to ride a front-wheel
wheelie down the downhill side of the waterbar. This seems really
dangerous to me, and I'd like to know how to prevent it in the future.
Hence my question: what was I doing wrong in these conditions?

If I slowed down even more, it didn't happen, but that can't be the
whole story since a companion who was riding at roughly the same speed
didn't have the problem. Unfortunately we could not pinpoint what the
difference between our riding techniques was.

Thanks for any advice,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dave

Sounds like you are putting too much weight on your handlebars. Braking
before the waterbars probably helped shift your weight forward too. Flat
bars will also contribute to shifting weight up front. You need to hang
as far back as possible on fast downhills, even off the back of the seat
if necessary. Favor the back brake and use the front sparingly. Wheelie
up the bars those times you can't help getting air so you don't
nosedive.

On 2004-08-02, SuperSlinky penned:

Quoted message said:

David Newman said...

Sounds like you are putting too much weight on your handlebars.
Braking before the waterbars probably helped shift your weight forward
too. Flat bars will also contribute to shifting weight up front. You
need to hang as far back as possible on fast downhills, even off the
back of the seat if necessary. Favor the back brake and use the front
sparingly. Wheelie up the bars those times you can't help getting air
so you don't nosedive.

I second this opinion. Just today I was riding those sorts of water
bars, and getting my butt back behind the saddle kept my body fairly
"quiet" -- if I didn't get my butt back enough, my body moved around a
lot more, which could cause the kind of problems you're describing.

BTW, to the OP, if your rear wheel is in the air and your front wheel is
on the ground, it's called a stoppie. At least when you do it on
purpose =)

--
monique

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live."
-- Mark Twain

"SuperSlinky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Newman said...

Quoted message said:

Today, I was going downhill kinda fast on a fairly steep jeep road. I
was riding my first full-suspension bike, which I have only had for a
few weeks. There were big waterbars across the trail, the kind made with
a mound of dirt, not rocks or rubber or anything blocky. I was trying to
roll over the waterbbars (which were smooth in profile) rather than
trying to get air because I couldn't really see what the landing
conditions were like. I braked before the waterbars to slow down, so as
not to get air, and I released the brakes just before I hit the trough
on the uphill side of the waterbars in order to roll through. In spite
of my slowing down, a couple of these water bars seemed to cause the
rear wheel of the bike to kick or buck, causing me to ride a front-wheel
wheelie down the downhill side of the waterbar. This seems really
dangerous to me, and I'd like to know how to prevent it in the future.
Hence my question: what was I doing wrong in these conditions?

If I slowed down even more, it didn't happen, but that can't be the
whole story since a companion who was riding at roughly the same speed
didn't have the problem. Unfortunately we could not pinpoint what the
difference between our riding techniques was.

Thanks for any advice,

Quoted message said:

>Dave

Sounds like you are putting too much weight on your handlebars. Braking
before the waterbars probably helped shift your weight forward too. Flat
bars will also contribute to shifting weight up front. You need to hang
as far back as possible on fast downhills, even off the back of the seat
if necessary. Favor the back brake and use the front sparingly.

Back brake would almost certainly lock up on steep descent, learn to use
ytour front brake properly for better control and less damage to the trail.

Quoted message said:

Wheelie
up the bars those times you can't help getting air so you don't
nosedive.

Yep popping a little manual sounds like it would be perfect.

Steve.

Monique Y. Mudama said...

Quoted message said:

BTW, to the OP, if your rear wheel is in the air and your front wheel is
on the ground, it's called a stoppie. At least when you do it on
purpose =)

Yeah, but don't you have to be stopped for it to be a stoppie? In any
case, I commend the OP for not going over the bars.

What I'm hearing so far is: weight farther back on the bike, consider a
manual before the waterbar, and maybe even bunny hop just before the
waterbar. Thinking about the mechanics, I can see that these might solve
the problem. I'll try them the next time I'm in this situation.

As for the compliment for not going over the bar, I think I just got
lucky. If the road had been just a bit steeper, I think I would be
hurting badly right now.

I thought that maybe the shock was set up wrong, but my riding companion
didn't think it was playing a big role. Anyway, it's a Santa Cruz blur
with a 5th Element air shock. 110 lbs in the main chamber and 70 in the
secondary. The rebound clicker is in the "middle" according to the shop.
I haven't changed these settings from how I got set up at the shop. I
weigh 145. I thought that turning the rebound down a bit might help, so
perhaps I'll try that too.

Thanks to everyone for your advice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dave

David Newman said:

Today, I was going downhill kinda fast on a fairly steep jeep road. I
was riding my first full-suspension bike, which I have only had for a
few weeks. There were big waterbars across the trail, the kind made with
a mound of dirt, not rocks or rubber or anything blocky. I was trying to
roll over the waterbbars (which were smooth in profile) rather than
trying to get air because I couldn't really see what the landing
conditions were like. I braked before the waterbars to slow down, so as
not to get air, and I released the brakes just before I hit the trough
on the uphill side of the waterbars in order to roll through. In spite
of my slowing down, a couple of these water bars seemed to cause the
rear wheel of the bike to kick or buck, causing me to ride a front-wheel
wheelie down the downhill side of the waterbar. This seems really
dangerous to me, and I'd like to know how to prevent it in the future.
Hence my question: what was I doing wrong in these conditions?

If I slowed down even more, it didn't happen, but that can't be the
whole story since a companion who was riding at roughly the same speed
didn't have the problem. Unfortunately we could not pinpoint what the
difference between our riding techniques was.

Thanks for any advice,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dave

I agree with Slack. Sounds like your suspension needs some adjustment.
My thoughts:
Too much pressure in the rear shock. You may not be getting much of any
shock absorption in this situation.
or
Rear rebound damping is too *fast*. After compressing as you start up
the water diversion, as soon as the weight is off the suspension, it
springs back too fast, bouncing you forward. You've got a pogo stick
under your butt. :-)
Also perhaps, too little pressure/spring rate, and/or compression
damping (only adjustable on nicer forks without changing the oil
viscosity) up front, causing the front end to dive, shifting your weight
and messing you up.
See your LBS for some set-up help. If they suck, go to a motorcycle
shop where they do MX. It's all the same parts.
All these can be masked or exacerbated by riding style, so listen to
that advice too. Suspension is no substitute for poor form.

Shawn

SuperSlinky wrote:

snip

Quoted message said:

Sounds like you are putting too much weight on your handlebars. Braking
before the waterbars probably helped shift your weight forward too. Flat
bars will also contribute to shifting weight up front. You need to hang
as far back as possible on fast downhills, even off the back of the seat
if necessary. Favor the back brake and use the front sparingly.

The front brake rules. There are lots of places I ride where, if I
didn't have a front brake, I would gradually accelerate down the trail,
no matter how I use the rear brake, until the rear wheel would lock up,
digging a groove to China-right before I'd loose control and crash. The
front wheel has the weight on it, so it can keep rolling and keep
providing traction for braking. You do need to keep your weight back. ;-)

Shawn

David Newman says:

Quoted message said:

Thanks for any advice,

Well, you can treat this advice with caution, bacause it comes from a lifelong
rigid rider, but.....

When I come to something like that, I let me body be the shock. As the front
begins to rise, let it, but don't let your body rise too. Then when the bars
start to be able to go down, push 'em down. By this time the rear end is
rising, so bend the knees (it's like skiing, really) to absorb the bump, then
straightewn gently as the rear end clears the bump, and everything will stay
attached to the ground. The trick is to keep the whole body loose, but still
be standong on the pedals.

It is not a technique that is easy to learn on a fully-sus, from the sound of
things, cos you guys just let the shocks do the work. ;-P

Steve "full-body suspension "

On 2004-08-02, Stephen Baker penned:

Quoted message said:

David Newman says:

Quoted message said:

Thanks for any advice,

Well, you can treat this advice with caution, bacause it comes from a
lifelong rigid rider, but.....

When I come to something like that, I let me body be the shock. As
the front begins to rise, let it, but don't let your body rise too.
Then when the bars start to be able to go down, push 'em down. By
this time the rear end is rising, so bend the knees (it's like skiing,
really) to absorb the bump, then straightewn gently as the rear end
clears the bump, and everything will stay attached to the ground. The
trick is to keep the whole body loose, but still be standong on the
pedals.

It is not a technique that is easy to learn on a fully-sus, from the
sound of things, cos you guys just let the shocks do the work. ;-P

Now, now. Just because you're on a FS doesn't mean you have to sit
there like a lump on a log!

--
monique

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live."
-- Mark Twain

Monique says:

Quoted message said:

Now, now. Just because you're on a FS doesn't mean you have to sit
there like a lump on a log!

Are you accusing me of inverted snobbery?
(You're right, but I do like to know...)

Steve

On 2004-08-02, Stephen Baker penned:

Quoted message said:

Monique says:

Quoted message said:

Now, now. Just because you're on a FS doesn't mean you have to sit
there like a lump on a log!

Are you accusing me of inverted snobbery? (You're right, but I do
like to know...)

Not accusing ... just gently correcting =)

--
monique

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live."
-- Mark Twain

Stephen Baker said:

Are you accusing me of inverted snobbery?

Why -- are you standing on your head?!?

Bill "SB the trials dude" S.

Sorni says:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you accusing me of inverted snobbery?

Why -- are you standing on your head?!?

No, just looking up my nose at people.
Much better than looking up _their_ noses ;-P

Steve

David Newman said...

Quoted message said:

What I'm hearing so far is: weight farther back on the bike, consider a
manual before the waterbar, and maybe even bunny hop just before the
waterbar. Thinking about the mechanics, I can see that these might solve
the problem. I'll try them the next time I'm in this situation.

As for the compliment for not going over the bar, I think I just got
lucky. If the road had been just a bit steeper, I think I would be
hurting badly right now.

I thought that maybe the shock was set up wrong, but my riding companion
didn't think it was playing a big role. Anyway, it's a Santa Cruz blur
with a 5th Element air shock. 110 lbs in the main chamber and 70 in the
secondary. The rebound clicker is in the "middle" according to the shop.
I haven't changed these settings from how I got set up at the shop. I
weigh 145. I thought that turning the rebound down a bit might help, so
perhaps I'll try that too.

Thanks to everyone for your advice.

No, if you are concerned about the shock kicking back, you would want to
turn it up. Since you are so light, a little more rebound damping might
be a good thing. But then maybe not. Experiment and find what you like
best.