wheel building problem

aytchkay said:

I'm building my first wheel - a rear, fixed gear wheel with a single
gear (not flip-flop). It's got 36 spokes, 3 cross. The hub flanges are
equal and the spokes are all the same length (295).

I laced the entire wheel, trued it, only to find that sets 1 & 2 spokes
are "too long" set 3 was barely long enough, and set 4 was just right.
So now, sets 1&2 stick out past the nipple on the rim.

I checked the lacing and it looks right! What the heck did I do
wrong??

thanks....

Sounds like a nice wheel!

I think one of my wheels had similar symptoms in the past. I had spoked
the hub "off by one". The spokes on one flange were *one* hole off from
where they should have been.

Following the instructions on Sheldon Brown's site, I had placed the
first spoke of the second group in the wrong hole. See:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#second

To fix it I took out each spoke on that flange and replaced them in the
neighboring hole.

Hope this helps!

someone wants to know:

Quoted message said:

I'm building my first wheel - a rear, fixed gear wheel with a single
gear (not flip-flop). It's got 36 spokes, 3 cross. The hub flanges
are equal and the spokes are all the same length (295).

Quoted message said:

I laced the entire wheel, trued it, only to find that sets 1 & 2
spokes are "too long" set 3 was barely long enough, and set 4 was
just right. So now, sets 1&2 stick out past the nipple on the rim.

Quoted message said:

I checked the lacing and it looks right! What the heck did I do
wrong??

Lets start with how many spoke lengths are you using? Reasonably one
uses two lengths, the right side being the shorter. If you have
differences in spoke protrusion and your wheel has been tightened,
then the hub is probably ruined because your spokes are one hole off
of their correct position left to right. That is, the left spokes are
in the holes the right ones should be and visa versa.

Usually this is apparent by the oil hole in older aluminum hubs having
become an ellipse instead of being round. Some newer hubs with large
diameter spool centers don't twist as easily but such hubs are usually
damaged just the same. Get a book that makes clear how to lace spokes.

Jobst Brandt

aytchkay said:

I'm building my first wheel - a rear, fixed gear wheel with a single
gear (not flip-flop). It's got 36 spokes, 3 cross. The hub flanges are
equal and the spokes are all the same length (295).

I laced the entire wheel, trued it, only to find that sets 1 & 2 spokes
are "too long" set 3 was barely long enough, and set 4 was just right.
So now, sets 1&2 stick out past the nipple on the rim.

I checked the lacing and it looks right! What the heck did I do
wrong??

thanks....

W/O seeing the wheel tough to say but I'm guessing it isn't laced
correctly...the only answer.

"I checked the lacing and it looks right! What the heck did I do
wrong??"

I forgot, did you say you were using the old rim or a new one? If the
old rim were badly bent, it could do this.

Another possibility might be that the spokes you're using are too
short, so by the time you get the first half of them laced the second
half of them won't reach the nipple. This could happen if you changed
the hub or rim from what it was before and the bike shop that sold you
the spokes calculated the length wrong. But like the other posters
said, it's really hard to say without seeing the wheel.

You're keeping the first spokes you laced really loose, right? Just
engage a thread or two to start. If you still have this problem and
you're sure it's laced right, I think it's got to be either a bent rim
(if you're using the old one) or the spokes are too short. Being only
a mm or two too short will mess you up by the time you lace the last
spokes. The length difference adds up.

Back in the days of antique cars, when they made each automobile wheel
with 10 or 12 wood spokes inserted into a steel felloe, they auto
manufacturers had to either set up a special machine shop to cut the
wood spokes to exact length, or buy their wheels from a specialty
wheelmaker like Kelsey-Hayes. If they tried to cut the spokes in the
automaker's wood shop, where tolerances were customarily held to +/-
1/64", the spokes would fit too tight or too loose because the
difference adds up each time you insert a spoke. They had to hold the
tolerance to +/- 1/128". Even then, during the summer when the wood
spokes would dry out and contract about 1/256" in length, the wheels
would start to creak a little due to loose spokes.

I restored a 1922 Dodge Bros. touring car a few years ago. Did you
ever try to find a shop that will cut a wood spoke to +/- 1/128"? Not
too easy to find.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I'm building my first wheel - a rear, fixed gear wheel with a single
gear (not flip-flop). It's got 36 spokes, 3 cross. The hub flanges are
equal and the spokes are all the same length (295).

I laced the entire wheel, trued it, only to find that sets 1 & 2 spokes
are "too long" set 3 was barely long enough, and set 4 was just right.
So now, sets 1&2 stick out past the nipple on the rim.

I checked the lacing and it looks right! What the heck did I do
wrong??

You probaby mis-laced the wheel. As Jobst mentioned, the spokes on one side
are probably off by one hole. Hopefully you didn't tensiont spokes. Pull the
spokes out and try again. It should work out fine.
-------------
Alex

A couple of times I've been really sure I laced a wheel right, but it
did what yours is doing. So I took it to the LBS and asked the owner
(a good wheelbuilder) what I did wrong, and he was able to show me my
mistake. Kinda like how it is hard sometimes to spot typos in stuff
you write, but somebody else will spot them easily.

Thanks to all of your comments and suggestions. I'm going to take the
wheel apart and start over. I did not fully tension the wheel...they
are 'snug' but not very tight. But I did true it laterally and
radially - at least I can do that.

I don't have a dishing tool. I was going to try to rig one up with
parts in my basement. Is this critical with a symmetrical hub??

By the way, the rim is new, the hub is new (Suzue fixed gear not
flip-flop) one size spokes (295) both flanges are equal and the hub is
symmetrical (not offset).

I'll let y'all know what happens.

thanks again...

aytchkay

On 27 Jun 2006 17:11:24 -0700, "aytchkay" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I don't have a dishing tool. I was going to try to rig one up with
parts in my basement. Is this critical with a symmetrical hub??

No. You can just flip the wheel in your bike or trueing stand, and if
the rim stays in the same place then it's centered.

JT

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aytchkay said:

Thanks to all of your comments and suggestions. I'm going to take the
wheel apart and start over. I did not fully tension the wheel...they
are 'snug' but not very tight. But I did true it laterally and
radially - at least I can do that.

I don't have a dishing tool. I was going to try to rig one up with
parts in my basement. Is this critical with a symmetrical hub??

[snip]

It's fairly easy to make your own dishing tool. I have one I made many
years ago; it works well. Details on my cycling page:
www.acampbell.org.uk/cycling/.

Anthony

--
Anthony Campbell - [email hidden]
Microsoft-free zone - Using Linux Gnu-Debian
http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews,
on-line books and sceptical articles)

Anthony Campbell said:

aytchkay said:

Thanks to all of your comments and suggestions. I'm going to take the
wheel apart and start over. I did not fully tension the wheel...they
are 'snug' but not very tight. But I did true it laterally and
radially - at least I can do that.

I don't have a dishing tool. I was going to try to rig one up with
parts in my basement. Is this critical with a symmetrical hub??

[snip]

It's fairly easy to make your own dishing tool. I have one I made many
years ago; it works well. Details on my cycling page:
www.acampbell.org.uk/cycling/.

Anthony

--
Anthony Campbell - [email hidden]
Microsoft-free zone - Using Linux Gnu-Debian
http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews,
on-line books and sceptical articles)

Wow Anthony!! thanks for the pic and diagram...I'll make one too!
Ain't the internet wonderful!!!!

aytchkay

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I don't have a dishing tool. I was going to try to rig one up with
parts in my basement. Is this critical with a symmetrical hub??

Yes, it is important to center the hub. But you can easily do it without
a dishing tool. When you are done truing the wheel, flip the wheel in
the stand. If the rim is in the same place, it is centered. If it is
not, then you need to adjust the position of the rim.
----------------
Alex