wheel building question

"Frank Knox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am going do build touring wheels with Phil Wood Hubs and Velocity Dyad
rims.
The rear will be 48 and the front 36.

I have achieved tension on the half dozen wheels I built in the past using

a

Quoted message said:

method Jobst Brandt suggested in The Bicycle Wheel, (1980's version). I
tensioned spokes until the rim began to warp in large waves, then backed

off

Quoted message said:

somewhat. I doubt Dyad rims will do this.

What is the correct way to tension these wheels? I bought a Park
tensiometer recently.

When I build downhill MTB wheels I usually run them to about 110 kgf. I
don't think a DH rim like Mavic's D321 would warp in large waves before the
eyelets started to pull out of the rim. I could be wrong on this. But 110
works for me.

Mike

Frank Knox said:

I am going do build touring wheels with Phil Wood Hubs and Velocity Dyad
rims.
The rear will be 48 and the front 36.

I have achieved tension on the half dozen wheels I built in the past using a
method Jobst Brandt suggested in The Bicycle Wheel, (1980's version). I
tensioned spokes until the rim began to warp in large waves, then backed off
somewhat. I doubt Dyad rims will do this.

What is the correct way to tension these wheels? I bought a Park
tensiometer recently.

Call Velocity USA Toll Free🙁800)453.6126 and ask them for the correct tension with your build.
Peter Chisholm has a list of many of Vleocity's rims and their specified tensions.

Frank<< I am going do build touring wheels with Phil Wood Hubs and Velocity
Dyad
rims.
The rear will be 48 and the front 36. >><BR><BR>

Good choice

Frank-<< What is the correct way to tension these wheels? I bought a Park
tensiometer recently. >><BR><BR>

Find on the chart the reading for 100 kgf for the front and right rear,
depending on the spoke gauge, center section, where you are measuring it.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"daveornee" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank Knox said:

I am going do build touring wheels with Phil Wood Hubs and Velocity
Dyad
rims.
The rear will be 48 and the front 36.

I have achieved tension on the half dozen wheels I built in the past
using a
method Jobst Brandt suggested in The Bicycle Wheel, (1980's version).
I
tensioned spokes until the rim began to warp in large waves, then
backed off
somewhat. I doubt Dyad rims will do this.

What is the correct way to tension these wheels? I bought a Park
tensiometer recently.

Call Velocity USA Toll Free🙁800)453.6126 and ask them for the correct
tension with your build.
Peter Chisholm has a list of many of Vleocity's rims and their
specified tensions.

--
daveornee

Thanks. I'll call them.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank<< I am going do build touring wheels with Phil Wood Hubs and

Velocity

Quoted message said:

Dyad
rims.
The rear will be 48 and the front 36. >><BR><BR>

Good choice

Frank-<< What is the correct way to tension these wheels? I bought a Park
tensiometer recently. >><BR><BR>

Find on the chart the reading for 100 kgf for the front and right rear,
depending on the spoke gauge, center section, where you are measuring it.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Thanks Peter.

I'm using DT 14/15 spokes, 3x. My understanding is that I should measure in
the center of the span between the nipple and outer cross.

Quoted message said:

When I build downhill MTB wheels I usually run them to about 110 kgf.
I don't think a DH rim like Mavic's D321 would warp in large waves
before the eyelets started to pull out of the rim. I could be wrong

Eyelets don't pull through because of initial tension. It's the stress
cycles and creep that cause the nipples to begin to pull the eyelets through
the rim.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

When I build downhill MTB wheels I usually run them to about 110 kgf.
I don't think a DH rim like Mavic's D321 would warp in large waves
before the eyelets started to pull out of the rim. I could be wrong

Eyelets don't pull through because of initial tension. It's the stress
cycles and creep that cause the nipples to begin to pull the eyelets through
the rim.

the higher the initial tension, the closer the rim material is to its
yield point. the closer to yield, the shorter the fatigue life. the
quest for excess initial tension does not help wheel stiffness - that's
a function of rim modulus & spoke modulus.

Frank Knox said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank<< I am going do build touring wheels with Phil Wood Hubs and

Velocity

Quoted message said:

Dyad
rims.
The rear will be 48 and the front 36. >><BR><BR>

Good choice

Frank-<< What is the correct way to tension these wheels? I bought a Park
tensiometer recently. >><BR><BR>

Find on the chart the reading for 100 kgf for the front and right rear,
depending on the spoke gauge, center section, where you are measuring it.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Thanks Peter.

I'm using DT 14/15 spokes, 3x. My understanding is that I should measure in
the center of the span between the nipple and outer cross.

Yes, you have the measurement location correct. Make sure that the end closest to the rim isn't touching the thicker spoke section.
On the Park TM-1 the deflection reading is 21 for 99 kg force.
If you get all your front spokes and all right side rear to read 21 (along with centering, truing, and spoke alignment) on your TM-1 you will have it.
Remember to stress relieve and recheck your readings.
Park has a Excel spradsheet file that you can use to record your readings (TCC_1.xls). The file is linked under one of thier Park Tool Repair section articles:
parktool.comTCC.shtmlOpen ↗
I guess they didn't plan on anything with more than 40 spokes per wheel.

Frank-<< I'm using DT 14/15 spokes, 3x. My understanding is that I should
measure in
the center of the span between the nipple and outer cross. >><BR><BR>

That is correct and use the number found under 15g..since that is thickness of
the deflection you are measuring.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank<< I am going do build touring wheels with Phil Wood Hubs

and Velocity

Quoted message said:

Dyad
rims.
The rear will be 48 and the front 36. >><BR><BR>

Good choice

Frank-<< What is the correct way to tension these wheels? I

bought a Park

Quoted message said:

tensiometer recently. >><BR><BR>

Find on the chart the reading for 100 kgf for the front and

right rear,

Quoted message said:

depending on the spoke gauge, center section, where you are

measuring it.

Peter, that seems so low for right rear. Wouldn't that leave
the left side pretty loose? I go that low and cannot keep my
wheels true. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank<< I am going do build touring wheels with Phil Wood Hubs

and Velocity

Quoted message said:

Dyad
rims.
The rear will be 48 and the front 36. >><BR><BR>

Good choice

Frank-<< What is the correct way to tension these wheels? I

bought a Park

Quoted message said:

tensiometer recently. >><BR><BR>

Find on the chart the reading for 100 kgf for the front and

right rear,

Quoted message said:

depending on the spoke gauge, center section, where you are

measuring it.

Peter, that seems so low for right rear. Wouldn't that leave
the left side pretty loose? I go that low and cannot keep my
wheels true. -- Jay Beattie.

yes, it does leave them loos/er/, but with 9 or 10 speed dish, that's
just the way it is. you have a choice - use higher tension & have the
rim fail through over tension, or use threadlock.

one of the loctite greens is low strength, wicking & perfect for this.
if you carefully examine pre-built wheels, ie. where the manufacturer
has no interest in constant warranty repairs, many have locking nipples
in them. and of course, you can buy locking nipples from d.t. or sapim.

Jay-<< Peter, that seems so low for right rear. Wouldn't that leave
the left side pretty loose? I go that low and cannot keep my
wheels true. >><BR><BR>

Then I would say the right is not at 100 kgf. We use a DT spoke
tensionometer(the big bucks one) for all our wheels and look for 100 kgf on
right side rear and front..

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Jim-<< use higher tension & have the
rim fail through over tension, or use threadlock.

one of the loctite greens is low strength, wicking & perfect for this.
if you carefully examine pre-built wheels, ie. where the manufacturer
has no interest in constant warranty repairs, many have locking nipples
in them. and of course, you can buy locking nipples from d.t. or sapim.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Hmmmmm.We build mostly on modern hubs, shimano and Campagnolo 9/10s ones, we
use 100 kgf on the kickstand side of the rear, DO NOT use threadlock or locking
nipps and our wheels stay true, w/o loose spokes on the left side..

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Jim-<< use higher tension & have the
rim fail through over tension, or use threadlock.

one of the loctite greens is low strength, wicking & perfect for this.
if you carefully examine pre-built wheels, ie. where the manufacturer
has no interest in constant warranty repairs, many have locking nipples
in them. and of course, you can buy locking nipples from d.t. or sapim.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Hmmmmm.We build mostly on modern hubs, shimano and Campagnolo 9/10s ones, we
use 100 kgf on the kickstand side of the rear, DO NOT use threadlock or locking
nipps and our wheels stay true, w/o loose spokes on the left side..

can't say i have any problems either, but jay says he's having
difficulties and threadlock and/or locking nipples are the solution,
assuming he's pre-stressing the wheel correctly.

Quoted message said:

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Jim-<< use higher tension & have the
rim fail through over tension, or use threadlock.

one of the loctite greens is low strength, wicking & perfect

for this.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if you carefully examine pre-built wheels, ie. where the

manufacturer

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

has no interest in constant warranty repairs, many have

locking nipples

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in them. and of course, you can buy locking nipples from

d.t. or sapim.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

><BR><BR>

Hmmmmm.We build mostly on modern hubs, shimano and Campagnolo

9/10s ones, we

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

use 100 kgf on the kickstand side of the rear, DO NOT use

threadlock or locking

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

nipps and our wheels stay true, w/o loose spokes on the left

side..

Quoted message said:

can't say i have any problems either, but jay says he's having
difficulties and threadlock and/or locking nipples are the

solution,

Quoted message said:

assuming he's pre-stressing the wheel correctly.

I am not having problem with spoke breakage or wind-up, so stress
or twist relief is not a problem. I just built a 36 hole Velocity
Aerohead OC with 100kgf left side and about 130kgf right. I am
about 205lbs. They are staying very true, except that I smashed
my sidewall in a pot hole. These are tender rims! Anyway, an
Open Pro wheel with 100kgf right side will not stay true for me.
I am rebuilding a bunch of wheels right now and will experiment
with lower tension, but I am not expecting success. I would
prefer not to use thread lock for a number of reasons. -- Jay
Beattie.

<SNIP>

Hmmmmm.We build mostly on modern hubs, shimano and Campagnolo 9/10s ones, we
use 100 kgf on the kickstand side of the rear, DO NOT use threadlock or locking
nipps and our wheels stay true, w/o loose spokes on the left side..

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"[/QUOTE]

I thought the kickstand was on the left side.

Left side spokes will loosen only if the rim is rather wimpy and/or the spoke support angle is so low on the right side that left side don't stretch much due to very low tension.
I know Peter Chisholm doesn't like them or use them, but stretchier spokes on the left side like 15/16 DB or 14/17 DB help spread the load and don't go slack as quickly. I am not suggesting any poor building techniques or any other questionable methods that have been imputed from past postings.
I agree with Peter, that locking chemicals or nipples are not a good idea. If the left spokes are going slack, you need a stiffer rim and/or stretchier spokes on the left side. My preference is a stiffer rim. Of course offset rims like the Velocity Aerohead OC are also helpful. I think that the Dyad rim planned for this Original Poster's wheel should be sufficiently stiff to prevent any properly built wheel and any anticipated rider + touring load from causing the spokes to go slack.
We use the 700C 48h Dyads on our road touring tandem. Our rear wheel stays perfectly true, but we have 160 mm OLD.

Jay Beattie said:

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Jim-<< use higher tension & have the
rim fail through over tension, or use threadlock.

one of the loctite greens is low strength, wicking & perfect

for this.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if you carefully examine pre-built wheels, ie. where the

manufacturer

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

has no interest in constant warranty repairs, many have

locking nipples

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in them. and of course, you can buy locking nipples from

d.t. or sapim.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>><BR><BR>

Hmmmmm.We build mostly on modern hubs, shimano and Campagnolo

9/10s ones, we

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

use 100 kgf on the kickstand side of the rear, DO NOT use

threadlock or locking

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

nipps and our wheels stay true, w/o loose spokes on the left

side..

Quoted message said:

can't say i have any problems either, but jay says he's having
difficulties and threadlock and/or locking nipples are the

solution,

Quoted message said:

assuming he's pre-stressing the wheel correctly.

I am not having problem with spoke breakage or wind-up, so stress
or twist relief is not a problem.

by pre-stressing, i mean what is usually referred to here as "stress
relief" where spokes are loaded sufficiently to bed in properly. that
way, no additional deformation ocurrs in use & the wheel stays true.

Quoted message said:

I just built a 36 hole Velocity
Aerohead OC with 100kgf left side and about 130kgf right. I am
about 205lbs. They are staying very true, except that I smashed
my sidewall in a pot hole. These are tender rims! Anyway, an
Open Pro wheel with 100kgf right side will not stay true for me.
I am rebuilding a bunch of wheels right now and will experiment
with lower tension, but I am not expecting success. I would
prefer not to use thread lock for a number of reasons.

out of curiosity, what are those reasons?

Quoted message said:

-- Jay
Beattie.

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jay Beattie said:

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

>Jim-<< use higher tension & have the
>rim fail through over tension, or use threadlock.
>
>one of the loctite greens is low strength, wicking & perfect

for this.

Quoted message said:

>if you carefully examine pre-built wheels, ie. where the

manufacturer

Quoted message said:

>has no interest in constant warranty repairs, many have

locking nipples

Quoted message said:

>in them. and of course, you can buy locking nipples from

d.t. or sapim.

Quoted message said:

>>><BR><BR>
>
>
>
>Hmmmmm.We build mostly on modern hubs, shimano and

Campagnolo

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

9/10s ones, we

Quoted message said:

>use 100 kgf on the kickstand side of the rear, DO NOT use

threadlock or locking

Quoted message said:

>nipps and our wheels stay true, w/o loose spokes on the left

side..

Quoted message said:

can't say i have any problems either, but jay says he's

having

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

difficulties and threadlock and/or locking nipples are the

solution,

Quoted message said:

assuming he's pre-stressing the wheel correctly.

I am not having problem with spoke breakage or wind-up, so

stress

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or twist relief is not a problem.

by pre-stressing, i mean what is usually referred to here as

"stress

Quoted message said:

relief" where spokes are loaded sufficiently to bed in

properly. that

Quoted message said:

way, no additional deformation ocurrs in use & the wheel stays

true.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just built a 36 hole Velocity
Aerohead OC with 100kgf left side and about 130kgf right. I

am

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about 205lbs. They are staying very true, except that I

smashed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

my sidewall in a pot hole. These are tender rims! Anyway,

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Open Pro wheel with 100kgf right side will not stay true for

me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am rebuilding a bunch of wheels right now and will

experiment

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with lower tension, but I am not expecting success. I would
prefer not to use thread lock for a number of reasons.

out of curiosity, what are those reasons?

Difficulty rebuilding or retruing in the event that I whack the
rim some more. Also, relying on threadlock may be a problem, as
it was in some prefab, low spoke count botique wheels that I
bought cheap and which unwound on me repeatedly -- or else broke
spokes. I prefer to rely on tension and not LocTite, although
that may be wishful thinking in today's world of eyelet-less rims
and low spoke count wheels. -- Jay Beattie.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jim-<< use higher tension & have the
rim fail through over tension, or use threadlock.

one of the loctite greens is low strength, wicking & perfect for this.
if you carefully examine pre-built wheels, ie. where the manufacturer
has no interest in constant warranty repairs, many have locking nipples
in them. and of course, you can buy locking nipples from d.t. or sapim.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Hmmmmm.We build mostly on modern hubs, shimano and Campagnolo 9/10s ones,

we

Quoted message said:

use 100 kgf on the kickstand side of the rear, DO NOT use threadlock or

locking

Quoted message said:

nipps and our wheels stay true, w/o loose spokes on the left side..

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

100 kgf on the drivetrain side of the rear wheel, but what about the
non-drive side? Just whatever it takes to center the wheel as long as I
have 100 kgf on the drivetrain side?

Thanks for your input. I have a lot to learn.