wheel stiffness

Keep the hubs and get CXP33's and 2.0/1.8/2.0mm double butted spokes all
around.
3X
Brass nipples

If built correctly, you will have no worries and the cost is great too.

Eric

the sole raving i hear out riding on the paths comes from composite
structures riders-frames and or seperately wheels-you know the one with
the four spokes? i forget the name. still haven't seen the one where
the spokes go from one side to the other.
all others remain silent
ceptin' those who think they "gotta great deal"

Francesco Devittori said:

My wheels (32H/3x/Open Pro/Dura-Ace) are reaching the end of their
life and I'm looking around for a replacement.

I noticed that these wheels are not always as stiff as I'd like to
(while all the rest is just fine).
Now you have to consider that the spokes are old (some where changed,
I'm not even sure they are all the same brand/model), the rims too, it
could be that times ago the situation was different.

On the other hand, I noticed that a Ksyrium SL and other boutique
wheels are very stiff.
My ideal wheel would be exactly like the ones I currently have (very
light, smooth hubs, very non-proprietary), but as stiff as a ksyrium.

Conclusion: what makes a wheel stiffer? It's only the rim?

Thanks as always for the great discussions

Francesco

Are you confusing 'harsh' with 'stiff''? A well made 32h Open Pro wheel with
the correct spokes for your weight, laced 3X will be plenty 'stiff' but not
'harsh'.

Francesco Devittori said:

My wheels (32H/3x/Open Pro/Dura-Ace) are reaching the end of their
life and I'm looking around for a replacement.

Quoted message said:

I noticed that these wheels are not always as stiff as I'd like to
(while all the rest is just fine). Now you have to consider that
the spokes are old (some where changed, I'm not even sure they are
all the same brand/model), the rims too, it could be that times ago
the situation was different.

How did you measure their "stiffness"? Was this lateral (bending to
the sides) or radial (spokes getting loose? How did you determine
that Ksyrium SL (super light) rims are stiffer?

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, I noticed that a Ksyrium SL and other boutique
wheels are very stiff. My ideal wheel would be exactly like the
ones I currently have (very light, smooth hubs, very
non-proprietary), but as stiff as a Ksyrium.

Quoted message said:

Conclusion: what makes a wheel stiffer? It's only the rim?

Number of spokes and rim. Also thinner spokes are more elastic but
that is mostly in an imperceptible range for 32 or 36 spokes wheels.

Quoted message said:

Thanks as always for the great discussions

I think you should measure various wheels before deciding on whether
you need the latest wheels. To do that lay the wheel on its side so
that at one place one edge is pressed against the floor (tire
deflated) with your foot and load the opposite side with a 30-40lb
weight, measuring the deflection. This is the most basic test of
lateral compliance.

[email hidden]

Francesco Devittori said:

My wheels (32H/3x/Open Pro/Dura-Ace) are reaching the end of their life
and I'm looking around for a replacement.

I noticed that these wheels are not always as stiff as I'd like to
(while all the rest is just fine).
Now you have to consider that the spokes are old (some where changed,
I'm not even sure they are all the same brand/model), the rims too, it
could be that times ago the situation was different.

On the other hand, I noticed that a Ksyrium SL and other boutique wheels
are very stiff.
My ideal wheel would be exactly like the ones I currently have (very
light, smooth hubs, very non-proprietary), but as stiff as a ksyrium.

Conclusion: what makes a wheel stiffer? It's only the rim?

Thanks as always for the great discussions

Francesco

"Relative contribution of the following to stiffness:
number of spokes
spoke gauge
rim weight
hub flange spacing
rim height"
Quoted from:
sheldonbrown.comindex.htmOpen ↗
Data on various wheels Damon tested before he went to work for Trek:
sheldonbrown.comdata.htmOpen ↗
Look at Number 50 for stiffness of OpenPro 32H with 14 G spokes.
Another poster stated that Open Pro should be stiff enough.
I agree that it is stiff enough also for riders 220 pounds or less as long as it it properly built and not worn out.

Francesco Devittori said:

My wheels (32H/3x/Open Pro/Dura-Ace) are reaching the end of their life
and I'm looking around for a replacement.

I noticed that these wheels are not always as stiff as I'd like to
(while all the rest is just fine).
Now you have to consider that the spokes are old (some where changed,
I'm not even sure they are all the same brand/model), the rims too, it
could be that times ago the situation was different.

On the other hand, I noticed that a Ksyrium SL and other boutique wheels
are very stiff.
My ideal wheel would be exactly like the ones I currently have (very
light, smooth hubs, very non-proprietary), but as stiff as a ksyrium.

Conclusion: what makes a wheel stiffer? It's only the rim?

for the same spokes and hubs, yes, the rim is the only possible variable
to achieve stiffer wheels. spoke tension does not affect stiffness.
you could try building wheels the same as you have now, but with a
thicker spoke, which is effectively what ksyriums have, but you will
notice a harsher ride.

Quoted message said:

Thanks as always for the great discussions

Francesco

Quoted message said:

Francesco Devittori said:

My wheels (32H/3x/Open Pro/Dura-Ace) are reaching the end of their
life and I'm looking around for a replacement.

Quoted message said:

I noticed that these wheels are not always as stiff as I'd like to
(while all the rest is just fine). Now you have to consider that
the spokes are old (some where changed, I'm not even sure they are
all the same brand/model), the rims too, it could be that times ago
the situation was different.

How did you measure their "stiffness"? Was this lateral (bending to
the sides) or radial (spokes getting loose? How did you determine
that Ksyrium SL (super light) rims are stiffer?

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, I noticed that a Ksyrium SL and other boutique
wheels are very stiff. My ideal wheel would be exactly like the
ones I currently have (very light, smooth hubs, very
non-proprietary), but as stiff as a Ksyrium.

Quoted message said:

Conclusion: what makes a wheel stiffer? It's only the rim?

Number of spokes and rim. Also thinner spokes are more elastic but
that is mostly in an imperceptible range for 32 or 36 spokes wheels.

except in lateral loading, where decreased stiffness can exacerbate
dangerous conditions like shimmy. damon rinards wheel stiffness
measurements clearly show skinnier spokes increase lateral flexibility.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks as always for the great discussions

I think you should measure various wheels before deciding on whether
you need the latest wheels. To do that lay the wheel on its side so
that at one place one edge is pressed against the floor (tire
deflated) with your foot and load the opposite side with a 30-40lb
weight, measuring the deflection. This is the most basic test of
lateral compliance.

[email hidden]

Want a stiff wheel? Use a Rohloff hub. It has no dish and 70mm between the
hub flanges.

Quoted message said:

Francesco Devittori said:

My wheels (32H/3x/Open Pro/Dura-Ace) are reaching the end of their
life and I'm looking around for a replacement.

Quoted message said:

I noticed that these wheels are not always as stiff as I'd like to
(while all the rest is just fine). Now you have to consider that
the spokes are old (some where changed, I'm not even sure they are
all the same brand/model), the rims too, it could be that times ago
the situation was different.

How did you measure their "stiffness"? Was this lateral (bending to
the sides) or radial (spokes getting loose? How did you determine
that Ksyrium SL (super light) rims are stiffer?

In fact with the Ksyriums I felt the wheel like an indivisible single
unit, don't know how to explain. However all this could be very well in
my head.
When you hold a ksyrium in your hands, you grab the spokes and nothing
flexes, the spokes don't move at all (at least, it looks that way).
While riding this could help my brain thinking the wheel is stiffer,
even if it isn't.

I heard what I wanted to hear, I will go for another pair of 32 3x
custom wheels.

stay away from the Dark Side!

"Francesco Devittori" <frenkatfrenkdtcm> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How did you measure their "stiffness"? Was this lateral (bending to
the sides) or radial (spokes getting loose? How did you determine
that Ksyrium SL (super light) rims are stiffer?

In fact with the Ksyriums I felt the wheel like an indivisible single
unit, don't know how to explain. However all this could be very well in
my head.
When you hold a ksyrium in your hands, you grab the spokes and nothing
flexes, the spokes don't move at all (at least, it looks that way).
While riding this could help my brain thinking the wheel is stiffer,
even if it isn't.

Stiffness you measure by applying a force and then measure the displacement.
For instance mount a rear wheel in the drop outs and try to push the rim
sideways and see what happens. Do the same with the Ksyrium wheels. What
this stiffness means while riding is another question.

Quoted message said:

I heard what I wanted to hear, I will go for another pair of 32 3x
custom wheels.

Good choice.

Lou

Francesco Devittori frenkatfrenkdtcm said:

When you hold a ksyrium in your hands, you grab the spokes and nothing
flexes, the spokes don't move at all (at least, it looks that way).
While riding this could help my brain thinking the wheel is stiffer,
even if it isn't.

Wheels with fewer spokes have to have higher spoke tension. It's only
logical that those huge (dare I say "ugly"😉 Ksyrium spokes would be
"stiffer" than a single, smaller spoke that has two or three times as
many brothers and sisters to do the same job.

Quoted message said:

I heard what I wanted to hear, I will go for another pair of 32 3x
custom wheels.

stay away from the Dark Side!

Welcome back.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

jim beam said:

you could try building wheels the same as you have now, but with a
thicker spoke, which is effectively what ksyriums have, but you will
notice a harsher ride.

Do you REALLY think you could reliably identify two sets of otherwise
identical wheels in a blind A/B test (one with straight, one with
butted spokes)?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Mark Hickey said:

jim beam said:

you could try building wheels the same as you have now, but with a
thicker spoke, which is effectively what ksyriums have, but you will
notice a harsher ride.

Do you REALLY think you could reliably identify two sets of otherwise
identical wheels in a blind A/B test (one with straight, one with
butted spokes)?

actually mark, yes. i did that exact test with a friend, 3 idential
wheels except spoke gauge. he didn't know which was which, but
correctly reported which felt harsher & stiffer in ascenting rank of
spoke thickness. thanks for asking.

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Francesco Devittori said:

My wheels (32H/3x/Open Pro/Dura-Ace) are reaching the end of their life
and I'm looking around for a replacement.

Gotta ask, why do you think they are 'reaching the end of their life'??

Wheels, designed and built well, will last for years...

The rims are (very) worn, The hubs are no more in great shape, after
being serviced they are ok for the spare wheelset, but new hubs would be
nice.
Btw they lasted many years!

Francesco Devittori said:

Conclusion: what makes a wheel stiffer? It's only the rim?

The rim plays a large part. Some of these boutique wheels concentrate
the weight in the rim, which is a Bad Thing for responsiveness but they
could well be stiffer as a result.

FWIW, my similar Open4CD rims don't rub on the brakes (which I keep very
closely adjusted) so they're plenty stiff enough for me.

Wild Turkey said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My wheels (32H/3x/Open Pro/Dura-Ace) are reaching the end of their
life and I'm looking around for a replacement.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I noticed that these wheels are not always as stiff as I'd like to
(while all the rest is just fine). Now you have to consider that
the spokes are old (some where changed, I'm not even sure they are
all the same brand/model), the rims too, it could be that times
ago the situation was different.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How did you measure their "stiffness"? Was this lateral (bending
to the sides) or radial (spokes getting loose? How did you
determine that Ksyrium SL (super light) rims are stiffer?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, I noticed that a Ksyrium SL and other boutique
wheels are very stiff. My ideal wheel would be exactly like the
ones I currently have (very light, smooth hubs, very
non-proprietary), but as stiff as a Ksyrium.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Conclusion: what makes a wheel stiffer? It's only the rim?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Number of spokes and rim. Also thinner spokes are more elastic but
that is mostly in an imperceptible range for 32 or 36 spokes
wheels.

Quoted message said:

for the same spokes and hubs, yes, the rim is the only possible
variable to achieve stiffer wheels. spoke tension does not affect
stiffness. you could try building wheels the same as you have now,
but with a thicker spoke, which is effectively what ksyriums have,
but you will notice a harsher ride.

Would you please state what the radial deflection of a typical wheel
is that you believe you can feel and how much that changes with spoke
cross section. I think it has been established adequately here often
that the difference is less than riding over a sheet of copier paper
lying on the road... about that of shock absorption of a carbon fork.

Quoted message said:

except in lateral loading, where decreased stiffness can exacerbate
dangerous conditions like shimmy. damon rinards wheel stiffness
measurements clearly show skinnier spokes increase lateral
flexibility.

That shimmy does not arise from spoking has been established beyond a
reasonable doubt. Spokes have a response many times quicker than
shimmy frequencies as does the rebound rate of wheel as a whole.
Damon Rinard has accelerometer graphs of a Rolf Vector Pro, A
Bontrager, and a 36-spoke conventional wheel in the same bicycle,
showing identical frequencies, shimmy buildup, and excursion.
This is a fame function.

[email hidden]

jim beam said:

Mark Hickey said:

Do you REALLY think you could reliably identify two sets of otherwise
identical wheels in a blind A/B test (one with straight, one with
butted spokes)?

actually mark, yes. i did that exact test with a friend, 3 idential
wheels except spoke gauge. he didn't know which was which, but
correctly reported which felt harsher & stiffer in ascenting rank of
spoke thickness. thanks for asking.

You're either making up this friend (invisible, is he?), or he has had
other indications, or he was lucky in his guesses. I notice it's your
friend who did this, not you.

So actually Mark, no.

On Wed, 25 May 2005 06:26:30 -0700, Mark Hickey
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Wheels with fewer spokes have to have higher spoke tension. It's only
logical that those huge (dare I say "ugly"😉 Ksyrium spokes would be
"stiffer" than a single, smaller spoke that has two or three times as
many brothers and sisters to do the same job.

Dear Mark,

Do Ksyrium spokes have three times the cross-section area of
a single ordinary spoke?

Curiously,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 25 May 2005 06:26:30 -0700, Mark Hickey
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Wheels with fewer spokes have to have higher spoke tension. It's only
logical that those huge (dare I say "ugly"😉 Ksyrium spokes would be
"stiffer" than a single, smaller spoke that has two or three times as
many brothers and sisters to do the same job.

Dear Mark,

Do Ksyrium spokes have three times the cross-section area of
a single ordinary spoke?

No, more like 2.4 (the section where they break is 3.1 mm diameter) and
they are aluminium aka alloy to boot

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl