Wheelbuilding: Dishing Tool Needed?

HP said:

Hi, I've dabbled in some wheel truing and am trying to move up to
wheelbuilding. Question: why would I need a dishing tool when I can clamp
both the (rear) wheel in along with the cassette into the stand, and just
check for center of the rim?

because if you clamp the wheel into the stand 12 times, you'll get 13
different "centers", the park ts-2 particularly. the dishing tool is
the most reliable consistent means of ensuring you get it right.

.....because you can do it more easily with a dishing tool.

If , like me, you are prepared to take the best part of a day to build
a wheel then you can easily do without. I reverse the wheel in the
frame to check for centring of the rim, but this needs to be done
several times an each time adds to the process. I do this in a bike
frame as my wheel truing stand is nowhere near rigid enough to give
satisfactory results for centring.

You can build good wheels with minimal tools (spoke key and
screwdriver), the specialist tools allow you to build wheels more
quickly and easily.

Andrew Webster

jim beam said:

HP said:

Hi, I've dabbled in some wheel truing and am trying to move up to
wheelbuilding. Question: why would I need a dishing tool when I can
clamp
both the (rear) wheel in along with the cassette into the stand, and just
check for center of the rim?

because if you clamp the wheel into the stand 12 times, you'll get 13
different "centers", the park ts-2 particularly. the dishing tool is
the most reliable consistent means of ensuring you get it right.

I don't know whether or not this represents a criticism of the Park and
other stands. I have not tried them, since I make do with a cheapie that
I bought in 68, when I build my first wheel.

It consists of a U shaped piece of 5mm thick steel (resembling a front
fork). The bottom is extended so it can be clamped in a vise. A bail is
supported about half way down each arm and in the center of the bail is
a brass slider with a thumb screw that one can use to check side to side
deviations and centering. I've never had any trouble in building a
properly centered wheel. On occasion I will reverse the wheel just to be
sure, but it really isn't necessary. I can remove a wheel from the stand
and then put it back on with no center deviation.

If the modern stands vary from wheel insertion to wheel insertion as
much as this thread suggests, then shame on the manufacturers.

--
Bob Wheeler --- http://www.bobwheeler.com/
ECHIP, Inc. ---
Randomness comes in bunches.

Andrew W said:

....because you can do it more easily with a dishing tool.

If , like me, you are prepared to take the best part of a day to build
a wheel then you can easily do without. I reverse the wheel in the
frame to check for centring of the rim, but this needs to be done
several times an each time adds to the process. I do this in a bike
frame as my wheel truing stand is nowhere near rigid enough to give
satisfactory results for centring.

You can build good wheels with minimal tools (spoke key and
screwdriver), the specialist tools allow you to build wheels more
quickly and easily.

Andrew Webster

I center my wheels by laying them on a flat surface, holding down one
side of the rim, then measuring the height of the opposite edge off of
the surface. Flip the wheel over and repeat. That tells me roughly how
far my wheel is off-center. Adjust as needed. I can center the wheel
within three iterations of this.

Of course, I learned to build & true wheels on a Park TS-2 stand. Good
tools help, but all you really need is a spoke wrench.

Jeff

JeffWills said:

I center my wheels by laying them on a flat surface, holding down one
side of the rim, then measuring the height of the opposite edge off of
the surface. Flip the wheel over and repeat. That tells me roughly how
far my wheel is off-center. Adjust as needed. I can center the wheel
within three iterations of this.

Of course, I learned to build & true wheels on a Park TS-2 stand. Good
tools help, but all you really need is a spoke wrench.

Jeff

I made my own centring tool many years ago; it works fine and cost
practically nothing. Details and pictures available on my cycling page:

http://www.acampbell.org.uk/cycling/index.html

Anthony

--
Using Linux GNU/Debian - Windows-free zone
http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews,
Assassins, homeopathy, and skeptical articles).
Email: ac<at>acampbell.org.uk

HP said:

Hi, I've dabbled in some wheel truing and am trying to move up to
wheelbuilding. Question: why would I need a dishing tool when I can clamp
both the (rear) wheel in along with the cassette into the stand, and just
check for center of the rim?

yes you can but dishing tools are cheap. Step up and buy the correct
tools. Truing stand, range of spoke wrenches and a dishing tool,
patience, two decent books. You can get away with less but again, not
expensive.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

yes you can but dishing tools are cheap. Step up and buy the correct
tools. Truing stand, range of spoke wrenches and a dishing tool,
patience, two decent books. You can get away with less but again, not
expensive.

Jobst Brandt's (?) book and who what's the other one, please?
---
Splat

HP said:

Hi, I've dabbled in some wheel truing and am trying to move up to
wheelbuilding. Question: why would I need a dishing tool when I can clamp
both the (rear) wheel in along with the cassette into the stand, and just
check for center of the rim?

In my opinion, a truing stand does not give an accurate-enough dish
measurement. A dishing tool is cheap, and you can even make your own with
a little thought.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Let's not escape into mathematics. Let's stay with reality. --
_`\(,_ | Michael Crichton
(_)/ (_) |

I echo Dave's comment. Let's say your wheel is 2 mm out of dish. You
see 2 mm on the truing stand, but 4 mm on the dishing tool. You can
make your own dishing tool if you're cheap.

tuba4 with blocks at the dishing space both ends, hole in middle for
axle. use flat washers imaginatively once you get to that point.
establishing the dish allows the builder to over dish to the drive side
then pull the drive side back to the dish spacing.
bringing both sides towrad an equal torque as it goes to spec. aplogies
to wheel builders everywhere.
the tuba4 is handy for building from scratch.
bolt 2 straightseasoned tuba4 together with a space for the axle.
thatill keep the tuba from wrapping.
or go over to the flea market in used furniture and grovel for one.
buy 3-4 wal bikes ....

Mike Yankee said:

I echo Dave's comment. Let's say your wheel is 2 mm out of dish.
You see 2 mm on the truing stand, but 4 mm on the dishing tool. You
can make your own dishing tool if you're cheap.

Out of dish can be defined in different ways. However, if a wheel is
1 mm out of center the "reading" will be 4 mm gap at the end of the
centering bridge, it being a double differential measurement. Therein
lies the elegance of this simple tool. Now and then, someone offers a
dishing tool with a dial micrometer for the gadget minded, "top of the
line" aficionados, to no avail.

Jobst Brandt

What about the one-armed truing stand made by Ultimate?

What is the effect of using an off center rim on the front? Rear?
Mountainbike vs. Road? Disk vs. caliper brakes?

--
DTW .../\.../\.../\...

I've spent most of my money on mountain biking and windsurfing.
The rest, I've just wasted.

"HP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi, I've dabbled in some wheel truing and am trying to move up to
wheelbuilding. Question: why would I need a dishing tool when I can clamp
both the (rear) wheel in along with the cassette into the stand, and just
check for center of the rim?

i have the laser model and its outasight!

slower, more wear, less straight line stability

D T W .../\\... said:

What is the effect of using an off center rim on the front? Rear?
Mountainbike vs. Road? Disk vs. caliper brakes?

Aside from the obvious of being closer to one (set of) fork blade(s) than
the other, and having to detune your brake so it's offcenter, if the two
wheels aren't off center by the same amount in the same direction, the
rear wheel isn't in the same plane as the front wheel. Effectively that's
as if your rear wheel was mounted diagonally a bit rather than straight.
Increased rear tire wear, less control over the bike, less grip in
corners.

On the other hand, being a millimeter off is probably not such a big deal.

Jasper

D T W .../\\... said:

What is the effect of using an off center rim on the front? Rear?
Mountainbike vs. Road? Disk vs. caliper brakes?

Aside from the obvious of being closer to one (set of) fork blade(s) than
the other, and having to detune your brake so it's offcenter, if the two
wheels aren't off center by the same amount in the same direction, the
rear wheel isn't in the same plane as the front wheel. Effectively that's
as if your rear wheel was mounted diagonally a bit rather than straight.
Increased rear tire wear, less control over the bike, less grip in
corners.

On the other hand, being a millimeter off is probably not such a big deal.

Jasper

Splat said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

yes you can but dishing tools are cheap. Step up and buy the correct
tools. Truing stand, range of spoke wrenches and a dishing tool,
patience, two decent books. You can get away with less but again, not
expensive.

Jobst Brandt's (?) book and who what's the other one, please?
---
Splat

Gerd Schraener's 'Art of Wheelbuilding'. Both a must for the novice
wheelbuilder.

D T W .../\... said:

What is the effect of using an off center rim on the front? Rear?
Mountainbike vs. Road? Disk vs. caliper brakes?

Dish is dish is dish. You are trying to get the rim centered between
the axle ends and in the frame or fork. Doesn't matter what hub it is
or bike or rim.