Wheelset choices

Bestest Handsander said:

Okay David L. Johnson.

1. The Topolinos cost less than $1000 ($850 to be exact). The OP stated he
was considering wheels that cost $800. Whether you would ever spend this
much is irrelevant. I am, and the OP stated he was.

2. I've had five different sets of wheels over the last ten years. (Topos,
Bontager, Cosmos, custom built Ultegra Hubs-DT spokes-Open Pro rims-36spoke,
an old Shimano set: don't recall the name-10 years ago, and a pair I've
built myself from discarded parts... more for the experience than anything
else). NONE have held up for 1800m without requiring work EXCEPT the Topos!
Remember, I weigh probably close to TWICE as much as some riders....

Please report back after Chalo rides the Topolinos for 20,000 miles
without problems.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Tom Sherman said:

Bestest Handsander said:

Okay David L. Johnson.

1. The Topolinos cost less than $1000 ($850 to be exact). The OP
stated he was considering wheels that cost $800. Whether you would
ever spend this much is irrelevant. I am, and the OP stated he was.

2. I've had five different sets of wheels over the last ten years.
(Topos, Bontager, Cosmos, custom built Ultegra Hubs-DT spokes-Open
Pro rims-36spoke, an old Shimano set: don't recall the name-10 years
ago, and a pair I've built myself from discarded parts... more for
the experience than anything else). NONE have held up for 1800m
without requiring work EXCEPT the Topos! Remember, I weigh probably
close to TWICE as much as some riders....

Please report back after Chalo rides the Topolinos for 20,000 miles
without problems.

That's like not buying luggage because a 600-pound gorilla can destroy it.

Oh, wait.

B i l l S o r n s o n said:

Tom Sherman said:

Bestest Handsander said:

Okay David L. Johnson.

1. The Topolinos cost less than $1000 ($850 to be exact). The OP
stated he was considering wheels that cost $800. Whether you would
ever spend this much is irrelevant. I am, and the OP stated he was.

2. I've had five different sets of wheels over the last ten years.
(Topos, Bontager, Cosmos, custom built Ultegra Hubs-DT spokes-Open
Pro rims-36spoke, an old Shimano set: don't recall the name-10 years
ago, and a pair I've built myself from discarded parts... more for
the experience than anything else). NONE have held up for 1800m
without requiring work EXCEPT the Topos! Remember, I weigh probably
close to TWICE as much as some riders....

Please report back after Chalo rides the Topolinos for 20,000 miles
without problems.

That's like not buying luggage because a 600-pound gorilla can destroy it.

Oh, wait.

That particular Samsonite commercial has not aired in what, 25 years?

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

David L. Johnson said:

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:28:44 -0700, carlfogel wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

You keep on this, but I still don't see why, unless it's too cold for you
to go out and ride.

If you think a $850 (not $1000 as I surmised) pair of wheels should only
last 1800 miles, then your standards are pretty low.

[snip]

Dear Dave,

Obviously, you either have no idea what I've repeatedlly
asked, or else you're just dodging the question again and
again because you made a disparaging remark about the
orgirinal poster's recommendation and are embarrassed to
have no answer when asked what your standard is.

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you have a point, here, Carl?

Quoted message said:

carlfogel said:

I have a question because I haven't seen the point yet.
A 260-pound poster volunteered that he's pleased with his
particular wheels after 1800 miles on rough roads.
The immediate comment was that 1800 miles wasn't much.
It seemed disparaging, but I decided to ask to find out if
1800 miles really isn't much--do you expect wheels that have
no problems in 1800 miles with such a heavy load on rough
roads to have problems in 1800 + X miles?

David L. Johnson said:

I wouldn't expect _any_ wheels to have problems after only 1800 miles.

You would be mistaken in that. Maybe wheels _you_ build are
OK? Probably yes. We see 100-mile wheels literally falling
apart occasionally. If tension is below a minimal
threshhold, wheels commit suicide in few miles.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Do you have a point, here, Carl?

Quoted message said:

carlfogel said:

I have a question because I haven't seen the point yet.
A 260-pound poster volunteered that he's pleased with his
particular wheels after 1800 miles on rough roads.
The immediate comment was that 1800 miles wasn't much.
It seemed disparaging, but I decided to ask to find out if
1800 miles really isn't much--do you expect wheels that have
no problems in 1800 miles with such a heavy load on rough
roads to have problems in 1800 + X miles?

David L. Johnson said:

I wouldn't expect _any_ wheels to have problems after only

1800 miles.

Quoted message said:

You would be mistaken in that. Maybe wheels _you_ build are
OK? Probably yes. We see 100-mile wheels literally falling
apart occasionally. If tension is below a minimal
threshhold, wheels commit suicide in few miles.

I rode a pair of bargain pre-fab wheels two weeks ago, and two
left-side rear spokes went rattly-slack in 60 miles. I weigh 205
and tend to be tough on wheels, but 60 miles? The worst part was
that I had sent back an earlier pair that was breaking front
spokes and which also went slack in the rear. I was told that it
was due to a manufacturing problem that had been solved -- and I
was provided with a new and improved set. Hardly. Supid me for
buying these things. I am going to put them on a spare bike and
sell the whole thing off to someone in the 140lb weight range. I
am back on my owner-built conventional wheels (Aerohead OCs or
OpenPros). So, I would think that 1800 miles by a clydesdale on
a super-light wheel is pretty damn good -- although I am not
going to shell out $900 for a pair of wheels any time soon. --
Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

I rode a pair of bargain pre-fab wheels two weeks ago, and two
left-side rear spokes went rattly-slack in 60 miles. I weigh 205
and tend to be tough on wheels, but 60 miles? The worst part was
that I had sent back an earlier pair that was breaking front
spokes and which also went slack in the rear. I was told that it
was due to a manufacturing problem that had been solved -- and I
was provided with a new and improved set. Hardly. Supid me for
buying these things. I am going to put them on a spare bike and
sell the whole thing off to someone in the 140lb weight range. I
am back on my owner-built conventional wheels (Aerohead OCs or
OpenPros).

If you can build your own wheels, you can certainly fix the slack ones. Just
replace the broken spokes, stress relieve the whole wheel, and tension/true it
properly. After this treatment it ought to last as well as anything.

A few years ago, really poor wheels were normal. Good shops took care of this
by doing the above, but more shops either didn't, or couldn't. Bike
manufacturers have since cleaned up their act. If nothing else, the
minimally-spoked wheel craze has forced them to.

Matt O.

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jay Beattie said:

I rode a pair of bargain pre-fab wheels two weeks ago, and

two

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

left-side rear spokes went rattly-slack in 60 miles. I weigh

205

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and tend to be tough on wheels, but 60 miles? The worst part

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that I had sent back an earlier pair that was breaking front
spokes and which also went slack in the rear. I was told

that it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was due to a manufacturing problem that had been solved --

and I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was provided with a new and improved set. Hardly. Supid me

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

buying these things. I am going to put them on a spare bike

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sell the whole thing off to someone in the 140lb weight

range. I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

am back on my owner-built conventional wheels (Aerohead OCs

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OpenPros).

If you can build your own wheels, you can certainly fix the

slack ones. Just

Quoted message said:

replace the broken spokes, stress relieve the whole wheel, and

tension/true it

Quoted message said:

properly. After this treatment it ought to last as well as

anything.

When I brought these wheels up to reasonable tensions, the spokes
would break. The option with these wheels is to use thread lock
in lieu of tension, or more thread lock as the case may be.
These wheels already use a Teflon based thread lock that has
proved inadequate. I do not see it as my job, however, to fix a
pair of wheels that should be perfect out of the box and which
should stay that way for a reasonable period of time. These
were not the bargain Nashbar wheels that are undertensioned and
which need a little work to be perfect. So, really, my choices
are to sell them, send them back or totally goober them up with
LockTite and hope for the best -- which may not be that good if
the spokes break. -- Jay Beattie.

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:13:02 -0800, "Jay Beattie"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

When I brought these wheels up to reasonable tensions, the spokes
would break. The option with these wheels is to use thread lock
in lieu of tension, or more thread lock as the case may be.
These wheels already use a Teflon based thread lock that has
proved inadequate. I do not see it as my job, however, to fix a
pair of wheels that should be perfect out of the box and which
should stay that way for a reasonable period of time. These
were not the bargain Nashbar wheels that are undertensioned and
which need a little work to be perfect. So, really, my choices
are to sell them, send them back or totally goober them up with
LockTite and hope for the best -- which may not be that good if
the spokes break. -- Jay Beattie.

Dear Jay,

Not trying to argue or stir things up, just really, really
curious.

How did you decide that the tension that broke the spokes
was reasonable? That is, did you tighten until the rim began
to yield, cracks appeared at the holes, use a tensiometer,
pluck them, or what?

Do you know what brand of spokes they are? Anything stamped
on the head? (There was a post recently asking about how to
identify a spoke by the mark stamped on the head, but no one
replied to it.)

Where did they break? Nipple, mid-section, elbow, right
where the shaft flares out into the button?

Were they straight, butted, bladed?

Carl Fogel

flatline said:

I test-rode a bike with new Ksyrium SL wheels this morning. The wheels
performed excellently, felt quite comfortable to me, and seemed worth
buying. But that was just a 25-minute test ride.
I can't address your other questions though.

Beware of these wheels, particularly the rear hub. A little dirt or dust
makes the freehub, NOT, and lost of maintenance is necessary. Hopefully
Mavic willsupport these for a while but when they stop\, expensive
penholders are all the hubs are good for.

Sandy said:

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le

message

Quoted message said:

de :
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you think a $850 (not $1000 as I surmised) pair of wheels should

only

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

last 1800 miles, then your standards are pretty low.

Here is where you totally distort language, logic, and most clearly,

the

Quoted message said:

initial comment. Disappointment comes anywhere along the line,

including

Quoted message said:

(if this were ture, but it's not) a limited life of 1800 miles.

That's not

Quoted message said:

what was written, not the basic fact, so don't write so smugly about
standards.

I will not use up a lot of wheels, because they came to me right, day

one,

Quoted message said:

and the rims I have replaced are from running rims where they should

not

Quoted message said:

have gone to start with. Damned drainage ditches across the road ;

pavé as

Quoted message said:

the main route for the day ; channel iron just fell off that truck ;
crashing didn't used to hurt this much .....

A positive recommendation is a chance you take, that people have

reasonable

Quoted message said:

faith in your experience, judgment and values. Whining about this

thing or

Quoted message said:

that thing "catastrophically failed" is marking the end-point of

positive

Quoted message said:

satisfaction.

With some folks of rbr, you wonder whether this is a battleground

over small

Quoted message said:

change.

My brand new wheels (just got 'em) have had two outings, but not a

real

Quoted message said:

test, as I am not going to chance the ice and snow with AmClass

350's. They

Quoted message said:

will last maybe 3-4 summers of mountains, and if I get more, then

I'll be

Quoted message said:

tickled. I don't grind my used tires casings for re-treading,

either.

Quoted message said:

--
Bonne route,

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

Isn't there a distinction here that is not being made? A bicycle wheel
can be unacceptable for two basic reasons:
1. Poor build quality which will become apparent almost immediately:
spokes pinging on the first ride, wheel going out of true, spokes
breaking after minimal use.
2. Poor design or component quality: rims cracking around the spoke
holes, spokes pulling through, play developing in the bearings,
bearings wearing out, spokes pulling out of hub, sections of hub flange
detaching, rim wobbles between widely separated spokes on a
low-spoke-count wheel that cannot be corrected, etc. etc.

Most of the second category of failures may not be immediately apparent
but will only arise after prolonged use. Nonetheless, they still make
a wheel unacceptable to me. Unless you are preoccupied with fashion or
suffer damage in an accident, the only reason to rebuild or replace a
wheel should be because the rims are nearly worn away by brake pad
abrasion (i.e. after tens of thousands of miles of normal use). The
exceptions would of course be wheels for special applications that push
the limits of construction/materials and are not intended to be
durable. I would imagine most commercially available wheels do not
fall into this category (or at least are not intended to!)

Nigel Grinter
Well-Spoken Wheels Inc.
www.wellspokenwheels.com

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:13:02 -0800, "Jay Beattie"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

When I brought these wheels up to reasonable tensions, the

spokes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would break. The option with these wheels is to use thread

lock

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in lieu of tension, or more thread lock as the case may be.
These wheels already use a Teflon based thread lock that has
proved inadequate. I do not see it as my job, however, to fix

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pair of wheels that should be perfect out of the box and which
should stay that way for a reasonable period of time. These
were not the bargain Nashbar wheels that are undertensioned

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

which need a little work to be perfect. So, really, my

choices

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are to sell them, send them back or totally goober them up

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

LockTite and hope for the best -- which may not be that good

if

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the spokes break. -- Jay Beattie.

Dear Jay,

Not trying to argue or stir things up, just really, really
curious.

How did you decide that the tension that broke the spokes
was reasonable? That is, did you tighten until the rim began
to yield, cracks appeared at the holes, use a tensiometer,
pluck them, or what?

Reasonable meaning that spokes no longer went slack. I do not
remember what my tensiometer read, but I did not reef on the
nipples and there was no deformation of the rim. There was no
cracking or yielding at the rim, either.

Quoted message said:

Do you know what brand of spokes they are? Anything stamped
on the head? (There was a post recently asking about how to
identify a spoke by the mark stamped on the head, but no one
replied to it.)

I do no know what brand they are and I do not have the wheel
handy. I suspect they are proprietary bladed steel spokes,
although considering the manufacturer's history, they may be
Wheelsmith.

Quoted message said:

Where did they break? Nipple, mid-section, elbow, right
where the shaft flares out into the button?

They broke at the rim (the nipple is inside the rim, which makes
truing a nightmare) and at the flange (I broke three or four
spokes -- some front, some rear). -- Jay Beattie.

<[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de :
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Isn't there a distinction here that is not being made? A bicycle wheel
can be unacceptable for two basic reasons:

The distinction you are NOT addressing is : when is the wheel acceptable ?
In the absence of your two occurrences ? how long to wait ?

Quoted message said:

1. Poor build quality which will become apparent almost immediately:
spokes pinging on the first ride, wheel going out of true, spokes
breaking after minimal use.

I thought I was addressing this, precisely, as the idea that one can
recommend a wheel, if the positive attributes are there, in very little
time. You are identifying the opposite of a recommendation, right ?

Quoted message said:

2. Poor design or component quality: rims cracking around the spoke
holes, spokes pulling through, play developing in the bearings,
bearings wearing out, spokes pulling out of hub, sections of hub flange
detaching, rim wobbles between widely separated spokes on a
low-spoke-count wheel that cannot be corrected, etc. etc.

This is what I tried to identify as the later point - that of
DISsatisfaction, and that even when an original recommendation may have been
made, updating that info with a later developed fact is helpful in choosing
your wheels. But, the problem of this thread is that someone who was still
pleased by trouble-free wheels at 1800 miles was taken to task as not having
waited long enough, or for having made his recommendation too soon. That's
where I disagreed. Given the likely life-span of really good wheels, and
the potential to get many years of use from them, you can't really expect to
wait until they finally wear out to say that you recommend them - or not.
The chance you take in making the recommendation is that someone will take
you seriously, rely on your word, and possibly not be pleased. That's a
chance my local guy takes when he says I need this thing or that thing. And
if I am not happy (actually, this has never happened in over 5 years, since
I am in this area, and pretty loyal to the one store), then I can let him
know, and he can figure out why the exception occurred, and perhaps modify
his recommendation. But if you think it is necessary to get 50-60 thousand
miles on a set, then offer a recommendation, you better also hope that the
products remain commercially available, and not just by happenstance on eBay
or a similar source.

Quoted message said:

Most of the second category of failures may not be immediately apparent
but will only arise after prolonged use. Nonetheless, they still make
a wheel unacceptable to me.

But when !? That's the issue, not the overall observation you offered.
When will you, as a wheelbuilder, recommend something ? It must be hard to
sell a first effort, right, if you haven't got a hundred thousand mile track
record to support your idea. So if folks trust you, they may even buy
something from you when you, yourself are offering it that very first time.
I could say that the Fiamme gold tubular wheels I used to race on were
troublesome, even with all the attention in the world - it didn't take more
than 3-4 races to know that. On the other hand, since I never had any
problem with the Campy Victory Stradas, do you think it is still too early
to say something good about them ? And if so, then I guess I will never be
able to "recommend" them, since I no longer ride sew-ups, and sold them to a
very happy guy in Dubai some time ago. He still likes them, still races
them, but they can't be all that good, right ?

Quoted message said:

Nigel Grinter
Well-Spoken Wheels Inc.
www.wellspokenwheels.com

With due appreciation for the fact that you do business in wheelgoods, and
are a lot smarter than I am about them, how do you set up your appoach to
making recommendations ? Especially, if you decide to try a new
combination, and market that.......
--
Bonne route,

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

MT asked:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any information on what Shimano is doing, and why?

They are making golf clubs, fishing gear, and cycling stuff to market
and sell for a profit, along with the usual considerations of corporate
prestige, market share, paying off the stockholders, etc. etc. Sorry,
that's about as close to the truth as you're going to get with a
faceless megacorp that doesn't give a [censored] about you...

With respect to the DOA $7800's, "revamping" doesn't sound very
promising (remember when the vaunted Kestrels all broke?).

Kdelerium DT's are what? $1000? at your local BS? And what kind of
skewers do you get with those? They look like those inferior external
cam things that Sheldon Brown talks about, but I'm only looking at a MO
catalog here.

Yup, I'm prejudiced. I've seen a couple of folks have problems with
"new" boutiquers in a quite limited sample experience ("don't get out
like I used to"😉. A high failure rate is indicated, a few
"indestructible" stories notwithstanding. Their consternation was not a
pretty thing to see, let alone experience.

Quoted message said:

I was looking for a durable, not-necessarily->light (Shimano

compatible 10

Quoted message said:

speed) set to train and race on, figuring I'd >sacrifice light weight

for a

Quoted message said:

wheel that would last (I weigh about 170 or >so.)

Durable...
For the same money? How about two sets of Ultegra 10 hubs, with
pick-and-choose rims (matching sidewall braking surfaces for painless,
no-grab substitutions), "custom" spoke type/count, brass/alloy nipples
if totally necessary, and different tire/tubes and gearing for a set of
"training" and a set of "event" wheels? Stuff you can work on yourself,
incredibly cheaper (in some cases, and actually available) parts that
are "known quantities" (back to that "revamping" [censored] on a new product
line. Sure.). Crunch a rim, or hear some noise after a long rain ride,
and you have something to use during downtime, which by contrast to the
boutiquers does not include a week's worth, minimum, shipping/handling
turnaround (or charges!).

Messrs. Muzi and Chisholm (Vecchio, returned) have mentioned Velocity
rims. Their Aeroheads (24, 28, 32, 36h), Aerohead OC, no 24h rear) are
available in non-anodized colors. Light rims, flashy in some finishes.
Want deeper aero? Velocity Deep V (48-16h drillings advertised), also
in colors. Or Mavic CXP's, again a known quantity recommended (by
people with quantities of experience) in this ng. FWIW, I've got a few
hundred miles on a Velocity 36h front, normal boring dark finish. I'm
not light but I am careful... so far so good.

Or... you could do like I did, and buy a decent used Shamal (front
only, of course) on ebay for use/presentation purposes. Lotsa wow
factor, deep aero, cheap. --TP

Quoted message said:

Kdelerium DT's are what? $1000? at your local BS? And what kind of
skewers do you get with those? They look like those inferior external
cam things that Sheldon Brown talks about, but I'm only looking at a MO
catalog here.

it shows: the skewers are probably the only well engineered part of the
wheelset

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Jay Beattie said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:13:02 -0800, "Jay Beattie"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

When I brought these wheels up to reasonable tensions, the

spokes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would break. The option with these wheels is to use thread

lock

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in lieu of tension, or more thread lock as the case may be.
These wheels already use a Teflon based thread lock that has
proved inadequate. I do not see it as my job, however, to fix

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pair of wheels that should be perfect out of the box and which
should stay that way for a reasonable period of time. These
were not the bargain Nashbar wheels that are undertensioned

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

which need a little work to be perfect. So, really, my

choices

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are to sell them, send them back or totally goober them up

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

LockTite and hope for the best -- which may not be that good

if

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the spokes break. -- Jay Beattie.

Dear Jay,

Not trying to argue or stir things up, just really, really
curious.

How did you decide that the tension that broke the spokes
was reasonable? That is, did you tighten until the rim began
to yield, cracks appeared at the holes, use a tensiometer,
pluck them, or what?

Reasonable meaning that spokes no longer went slack. I do not
remember what my tensiometer read, but I did not reef on the
nipples and there was no deformation of the rim. There was no
cracking or yielding at the rim, either.

Quoted message said:

Do you know what brand of spokes they are? Anything stamped
on the head? (There was a post recently asking about how to
identify a spoke by the mark stamped on the head, but no one
replied to it.)

I do no know what brand they are and I do not have the wheel
handy. I suspect they are proprietary bladed steel spokes,
although considering the manufacturer's history, they may be
Wheelsmith.

Quoted message said:

Where did they break? Nipple, mid-section, elbow, right
where the shaft flares out into the button?

They broke at the rim (the nipple is inside the rim, which makes
truing a nightmare) and at the flange (I broke three or four
spokes -- some front, some rear). -- Jay Beattie.

Dear Jay,

Some broke at the rim and some at the flange? Strange!

Maybe the awkward, hard-to-get-at-the-nipples rim design
contributed to the nipple-end breaks?

Did you have crank on the far end of the nipple, or was
there some kind of deep tool for going down the spoke shaft
and into the rim and grabbing the nipple?

Carl Fogel

Marten Gerritsen wrote:

(I posted):

Quoted message said:

I'm only looking at a MO catalog here.

(MG's reply):

Quoted message said:

it shows: the skewers are probably the only well engineered part of

the

Quoted message said:

wheelset

Ah. You own a set, then? <g>

But, seriously: Current "catalog" price for 2 sets, Ultegra 10 hubs,
36h, 14/16DB's, brass nipples, Mavic Open Pro Cd rims is $100 less than
one set of DA 7800's, $150 less than the Ksyrium SL set, from the same
vendor. "You get a lot more spokes, too".

I figure this price comparison is probably reflected at the retail
level (LBS, where the OP was looking), at least approximately. And I
didn't have to bother the busy folks locally.

To tell the truth, I'm not familiar with the Ultegra skewers, either,
but the point is: at that approximate price, one could buy one or two
complete sets of wheels.

Oops, almost forgot: using Dura Ace hubs (assuming those to be what is
supplied with the "Dura Ace 7800" wheelset; again, the catalog *is*
lacking in some regards), with the same everything else, it's about
$3-4.00 more for two sets of "conventionals with DA hubs" compared to
the K-m SL set. There, you're adding only the cost of rubber and a
cassette to get two pair of running wheels instead of one. Or approx.
$55 more (about 7% extra on an $800 purchase) compared to the DA 7800
set plus rubber/cassette (noting that Ultegra 10 cassettes are about
half the price of DA 10).

Begging the question (going back to the OP's "durability" requirement):
"Will two Ultegra hubs outlast one Dura Ace hub in service?". I
wouldn't pretend to know, but I could guess in the affirmative. If it's
close to 2x, plus added utility ("not missing rides for lack of
wheels", "reduced aggravation factor"😉, that's a lot of gravy IMHO.
--TP

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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Jay Beattie said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
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On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:13:02 -0800, "Jay Beattie"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

>When I brought these wheels up to reasonable tensions, the

spokes

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>would break. The option with these wheels is to use thread

lock

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>in lieu of tension, or more thread lock as the case may be.
>These wheels already use a Teflon based thread lock that

has

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>proved inadequate. I do not see it as my job, however, to

fix

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a

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>pair of wheels that should be perfect out of the box and

which

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>should stay that way for a reasonable period of time.

These

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>were not the bargain Nashbar wheels that are undertensioned

and

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>which need a little work to be perfect. So, really, my

choices

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>are to sell them, send them back or totally goober them up

with

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>LockTite and hope for the best -- which may not be that

good

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if

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>the spokes break. -- Jay Beattie.

Dear Jay,

Not trying to argue or stir things up, just really, really
curious.

How did you decide that the tension that broke the spokes
was reasonable? That is, did you tighten until the rim began
to yield, cracks appeared at the holes, use a tensiometer,
pluck them, or what?

Reasonable meaning that spokes no longer went slack. I do not
remember what my tensiometer read, but I did not reef on the
nipples and there was no deformation of the rim. There was no
cracking or yielding at the rim, either.

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Do you know what brand of spokes they are? Anything stamped
on the head? (There was a post recently asking about how to
identify a spoke by the mark stamped on the head, but no one

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replied to it.)

I do no know what brand they are and I do not have the wheel
handy. I suspect they are proprietary bladed steel spokes,
although considering the manufacturer's history, they may be
Wheelsmith.

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Where did they break? Nipple, mid-section, elbow, right
where the shaft flares out into the button?

They broke at the rim (the nipple is inside the rim, which

makes

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truing a nightmare) and at the flange (I broke three or four
spokes -- some front, some rear). -- Jay Beattie.

Dear Jay,

Some broke at the rim and some at the flange? Strange!

Maybe the awkward, hard-to-get-at-the-nipples rim design
contributed to the nipple-end breaks?

Did you have crank on the far end of the nipple, or was
there some kind of deep tool for going down the spoke shaft
and into the rim and grabbing the nipple?

The manufacturer stated that the spoke holes in the rim were too
small and that the spokes were being stressed as they passed
through the rim and into the nipple (which does not explain the
breaking at the other end). And yes, to true these wheels, you
have to remove the tire, remove the rim tape and insert a cheap,
stamped steel socket inside the rim. Amazingly, though, when two
of the left rear spokes went slack on the replacement wheel, the
wheel did not wobble so much that it could not pass through the
stays. I took off the rear brake cam and made it home with out
any problem, although the wheel rattled quite a bit. I trued up
the wheel, but I really do not want to go to the trouble of
disassembling the whole wheel, cleaning off the teflon thread
goop and putting Loctite on all the spokes. -- Jay Beattie.