When helmets make no sense

The other view point said:

I started to read the article, I checked the date then mmmmmm

Ah yes, 23rd December, that well known day for jokes...

Quoted message said:

Pedestrian helmets, cabinet wearing them, then the photos of Fony
Flair and the fat fighter in helmets just confirmed it for me, so
stopped reading the rest of it.

The point is precisely that it is self-evidently ridiculous for such
measures for pedestrians, yet it's actually just as safe cycling as
walking, so it's just as ridiculous to push such measures for cyclists.

It is done to illustrate that what's being pushed for cyclists is a
ridiculous case of double standards that doesn't bear scrutiny.

Read the whole thing, it's quite instructive.

Quoted message said:

I'm sticking to "statistics can prove anything", plenty of them on the
WWW.

So why do you trust the ones that confirm your prejudices?

Quoted message said:

Just for the record i'm not in favour of compulsory helmets, but their
use should be encouraged.

Why? And why not for equally dangerous activities like being a pedestrian?

Quoted message said:

Quick question for you,
Do you wear riding gloves; 1 - yes, 2 - sometimes, 3 - never.

Sometimes: typically when it's cold, or I'm doing technical off-road
where I expect to fall off.

Quoted message said:

Do you wear a helmet; 1 - yes, 2 - sometimes, 3 - never.

Sometimes, typically when I'm doing technical off-road where I expect to
fall off. Utility transport cycling, no: it's no more dangerous than
being a pedestrian, which has practically identical risks of serious
injury (basically, being hit by a motor vehicle), and nobody wears one
for that, so why for cycling?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Simon Brooke said the following on 31/05/2007 10:57:

Quoted message said:

The other was Steve Peat, was it not?

It was indeed, as mentioned in the video of this trip to which I posted
a link.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Peter Clinch said:

The other view point said:

I started to read the article, I checked the date then mmmmmm

Ah yes, 23rd December, that well known day for jokes...

Quoted message said:

Pedestrian helmets, cabinet wearing them, then the photos of Fony
Flair and the fat fighter in helmets just confirmed it for me, so
stopped reading the rest of it.

The point is precisely that it is self-evidently ridiculous for such
measures for pedestrians, yet it's actually just as safe cycling as
walking, so it's just as ridiculous to push such measures for cyclists.

It is done to illustrate that what's being pushed for cyclists is a
ridiculous case of double standards that doesn't bear scrutiny.

Read the whole thing, it's quite instructive.

Quoted message said:

I'm sticking to "statistics can prove anything", plenty of them on the
WWW.

So why do you trust the ones that confirm your prejudices?

Quoted message said:

Just for the record i'm not in favour of compulsory helmets, but their
use should be encouraged.

Why? And why not for equally dangerous activities like being a pedestrian?

Quoted message said:

Quick question for you,
Do you wear riding gloves; 1 - yes, 2 - sometimes, 3 - never.

Sometimes: typically when it's cold, or I'm doing technical off-road
where I expect to fall off.

Quoted message said:

Do you wear a helmet; 1 - yes, 2 - sometimes, 3 - never.

Sometimes, typically when I'm doing technical off-road where I expect to
fall off. Utility transport cycling, no: it's no more dangerous than
being a pedestrian, which has practically identical risks of serious
injury (basically, being hit by a motor vehicle), and nobody wears one
for that, so why for cycling?

Pete.
--

Thanks for the replies, i will let you have the last word on this
thread.

David Hansen wrote on 31/05/2007 11:46 +0100:

Quoted message said:

On 31 May 2007 02:41:54 -0700 someone who may be "The other view
point, there is one you know..." <[email hidden]>
wrote this:-

Seems like Troll D has found the helmet button and that pressing it gets
him the gratification he seeks. Please don't oblige him.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

Brendan Halpin wrote on 31/05/2007 09:45 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch said:

The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.rospa.org.uk/roadsafety/advice/cycling/cycling_accidents.htm

see what they say about head injuries, see what they say about helmets?

http://www.cyclehelmets.org

Even the ROSPA page doesn't give much weight to helmets, mentioning
them last in a list of six ways of improving cyclist safety.

Whereas the National Children's Bureau doesn't support them at all
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2j4rug

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

in message <[email hidden]>, The other
view point, there is one you know... ([email hidden]'😉

Quoted message said:

Quick question for you,
Do you wear riding gloves; 1 - yes, 2 - sometimes, 3 - never.

1: Yes. When you fall, even a minor fall, the thing that hits the ground
first is usually your hand - you instinctively put it out to save
yourself. Road rash on the hands is very painful and potentially
disabling.

Quoted message said:

Do you wear a helmet; 1 - yes, 2 - sometimes, 3 - never.

2: Only when racing in an event where the rules require it. I've fallen of
a bike certainly more than a thousand times (almost all when mountain
biking). My head has never hit anything. Your instincts and reactions are
remarkably good at saving your head from damage.

Gloves actually protect you effectively from something that is likely to
happen. Helmets don't protect you effectively and the thing they don't
protect you from isn't likely anyway.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

my other car is #<Subr-Car: #5d480>
;; This joke is not funny in emacs.

"Clive George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rodders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

When helmets make no sense

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t133/Rodders_album/Helmet1.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t133/Rodders_album/Helmet2.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t133/Rodders_album/Helmet3.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t133/Rodders_album/Helmet4.jpg

On a slightly different note, do you actually have the right to put those
pics in your album? You could always point people to Hans Rey's site
instead, which would have the advantage that you're not breaking
copyright.

cheers,
clive

They were sent to me as an email and I thought the group may enjoy the
craziness and the views. I had no idea who was in the pictures.

Rodders

Tony Raven said:

Brendan Halpin wrote on 31/05/2007 09:45 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>http://www.rospa.org.uk/roadsafety/advice/cycling/cycling_accidents.htm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> see what they say about head injuries, see what they say about helmets?
http://www.cyclehelmets.org

Quoted message said:

Even the ROSPA page doesn't give much weight to helmets, mentioning
them last in a list of six ways of improving cyclist safety.

Whereas the National Children's Bureau doesn't support them at allhttp://preview.tinyurl.com/2j4rug

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

Hmmmmm, i like this bit;

---------------------
Put simply, if riders who tend to wear helmets cycle more cautiously
than those who do not, they will have less serious crashes and sustain
less serious injuries, but this may have no direct causal link with
helmet-wearing. A recent pilot study suggests that children who wear
helmets may indeed be more cautious as a group than those who do not
(Mok and others 2004).
-----------------------

I could summarise that by saying cyclist without helmets are reckless
and don't think of the consequences, where those who wear helmets are
more aware of their vulnerability and reduce that by being more
cautious on the road, pat on back all round ;-)

Tony Raven said:

Whereas the National Children's Bureau doesn't support them at all
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2j4rug

I found that report almost disturbing -- far too sane and
meticulous and sensible. Something is wrong!

Brendan
--
Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland
Tel: w +353-61-213147 f +353-61-202569 h +353-61-338562; Room F2-025 x 3147
[email hidden] http://www.ul.ie/sociology/brendan.halpin.html

there is one you know... said:

Tony Raven said:

Brendan Halpin wrote on 31/05/2007 09:45 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>http://www.rospa.org.uk/roadsafety/advice/cycling/cycling_accidents.htm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> see what they say about head injuries, see what they say about helmets?
>http://www.cyclehelmets.org

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Even the ROSPA page doesn't give much weight to helmets, mentioning
them last in a list of six ways of improving cyclist safety.

Quoted message said:

Whereas the National Children's Bureau doesn't support them at allhttp://preview.tinyurl.com/2j4rug

Quoted message said:

--
Tony

Quoted message said:

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

Hmmmmm, i like this bit;

---------------------
Put simply, if riders who tend to wear helmets cycle more cautiously
than those who do not, they will have less serious crashes and sustain
less serious injuries, but this may have no direct causal link with
helmet-wearing. A recent pilot study suggests that children who wear
helmets may indeed be more cautious as a group than those who do not
(Mok and others 2004).
-----------------------

I could summarise that by saying cyclist without helmets are reckless
and don't think of the consequences, where those who wear helmets are
more aware of their vulnerability and reduce that by being more
cautious on the road, pat on back all round ;-)

Children with head injury were significantly more likely to have made
contact with a moving vehicle than control children (19 (19%) v 12
(4%), P<0.001). Head injuries were more likely to occur on paved
surfaces than on grass, gravel, or dirt.

John Kane wrote on 01/06/2007 02:25 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I could summarise that by saying cyclist without helmets are
reckless and don't think of the consequences, where those who wear
helmets are more aware of their vulnerability and reduce that by
being more cautious on the road, pat on back all round ;-)

Children with head injury were significantly more likely to have made
contact with a moving vehicle than control children (19 (19%) v 12
(4%), P<0.001). Head injuries were more likely to occur on paved
surfaces than on grass, gravel, or dirt.

Children wearing helmets rode faster and reported more damage to their
bicycles than those without - and that's from one of the avid pro-helmet
compulsion researchers
Mok D, Gore G, Hagel B, Mok E, Magdalinos H, Pless B., Risk compensation
in children’s activities: A pilot study; Paediatr Child Health.
2004;9(5):327-330.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

Tony Raven said:

Brendan Halpin wrote on 31/05/2007 09:45 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>http://www.rospa.org.uk/roadsafety/advice/cycling/cycling_accidents.htm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> see what they say about head injuries, see what they say about helmets?
http://www.cyclehelmets.org

Quoted message said:

Even the ROSPA page doesn't give much weight to helmets, mentioning
them last in a list of six ways of improving cyclist safety.

Whereas the National Children's Bureau doesn't support them at all

http://preview.tinyurl.com/2j4rug

Interesting - but is this right or is there a typo?

"Government-funded research by the Transport Research Laboratory found
that cycle promotion campaigns were 'strongly linked to a decrease in
the number of cyclists observed'" p39

Should that be "cycle promotion" or "helmet promotion"?

Tim.

Quoting Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Gloves actually protect you effectively from something that is likely to
happen.

You missed a trick here; in particular, gloves delay the onset of sore or
numb hands, which is something which - unlike accidents - is jolly likely.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!
Today is Wednesday, June.

In news:[email hidden],
David Damerell <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine
to tell us:

Quoted message said:

Quoting Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Gloves actually protect you effectively from something that is
likely to happen.

You missed a trick here; in particular, gloves delay the onset of
sore or numb hands, which is something which - unlike accidents - is
jolly likely.

Two other advantages of gloves:

o they enable you to operate twist-grip shifters on a hot day, and
o they produce a deeply silly suntan :-)

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
Do not top-post like a Cretinous Foul-Yob fit only for Stoning.

Quoting Dave Larrington <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Two other advantages of gloves:
o they enable you to operate twist-grip shifters on a hot day, and
o they produce a deeply silly suntan :-)

o old pairs of synthetic leather gloves make good punting gloves.
--
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