When to Stop Pedalling?



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In article <Dn2Ia.3531$%[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

> Kirk Gordon writes:

> > And, as with all gyroscopes, the faster the wheels rotate, the more stable they become. The
> > Segway is different only in the fact that it has an ADDITIONAL gyroscope which is always moving
> > at high speeds. A bicycle's gyros roll on the ground, so gyroscopic stability is directly
> > proportional to speed of travel. A slow moving bicycle becomes unstable in exactly the way a
> > Segway would if it's internal gyro were to slow down.
>
> I think you can leave the Segway out of this. It's gyros are heavy and spinning at several
> thousand rpm. Bicycles can be ridden at walking speeds where there are no perceptible gyroscopic
> forces. That is why bicycles don't ride no-hands at walking speed without a greatly skilled rider.

There seems to be a misapprehension about how the Segway works. Its gyros are solid-state, and
very light.

The magic of the Segway is in its onboard computer, which, much like the stability system on a human
being, makes constant small corrections to the attitude of the Segway by tweaking the output to the
independent drive motors. That's one reason why it has redundant computer systems: if the computer
fails, the Segway falls over immediately, much like the unstable-by-design F-16 and F-117.

http://www.segway.com/segway/how_it_works.html 5 "gyros", but that's due to redundancy
considerations.

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1986/articles/apr_86/f16_aero/ F-16 is only unstable in
pitch. Newer, better aircraft are unstable in all three axes. These aircraft can only be flown with
the aid of the onboard computer system. Cool, huh?

I'm not sure what this has to do with your gyro debate, But Jobst's point is that there are many,
many single-track vehicles which are stable without needing gyroscopic forces. Further, they behave
so much like bicycles as to suggest that gyroscopic forces are not very important to the handling of
a bicycle.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
 
[email protected] wrote:

> Kirk Gordon writes:
>>The wheels on a bicycle ARE gyroscopes, and stabilize the bike EXACTLY the way that any gyro will
>>stabilize anything it's attached to.
>
> I think you'll have to establish that this as fact. Your claim, for instance, suggests that
> folding bicycles with 14" diameter wheels do not become stable until nearly four times the speed
> of conventional bicycles with wheels twice the diameter.
>
The physics of gyroscopes was established as fact over a hundred years ago. It's well tested,
well understood, and is relied on daily for things as diverse as navigation systems in ships and
aircraft, Segway scooters, and kids' toys. You can buy a simple but fully functional gyroscope
at any good toy store for a couple dollars. Pick one up some time and play with it. You might be
surprised.

Assuming approximately equal distributions of mass, a 14" wheel would only have to spin 1.86
times as fast as a 26" wheel in order to produce the same gyroscopic stabilization. As I
explained, however, the gyro effect from a bicycle's wheels isn't the only think that matters.
Steering is vital; but not as simple or complete a solution as you seem to believe.

> This is a spoof, isn't it?

No. Just an attempt to be helpful, from someone who's studied physics, who makes his living as
an engineer, and who's spent decades designing and building mechanical things like industrial
machinery. I don't mean to sound arrogant, or to imply that I know any more than I really do;
but some things are so basic, and so fundamental to the way that mechanical stuff works, that
ignoring them can only lead to serious mistakes and misunderstandings.

KG
 
Elisa Francesca Roselli <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>... (concerning coasting)

> Tried it and hate it! Have the impression that I'm losing all control of the vehicle and have
> nothing to balance on.

hehe. i cant help but relate to you here. im an experienced cyclist, i suppose, but these days i
dont ride anything but fixed gear bicycles, those 'direct drive' bikes-of-old referred to earlier in
the thread.

anyways, i decided it would be nice to bomb some hills earlier this year, and put myself together
a geared bike (that coasts). i didnt like it one bit. it is true that i was inordinately faster
on the geared bike, and able to pile on the speed downhill. however, the connectedness with the
bike was gone.

with a fixie, you do not lose the feeling of control downhill. when you are going so fast that you
stop putting useful pressure onto the pedal in the normal part of the stroke, you can, instead, put
pressure on the backside. the pedals are predictable and solid references, whereas on a freewheeling
bike it takes me a few minutes before i feel good again (especially at low speeds where i am
infinitely in control compared to a freewheeling bike)

this assumes, of course, that you do not go so fast that you are 'spun out'. however, brakes take
care of this, the same way they do on any other bike.

fixed gear bikes, once ridden for a day or two, are not a difficult thing to master. if you are not
a cyclist of the wildly fast variety, and missing a feeling of control in your cycling, a cheap
fixed gear bike might be worth a thought in the future.

i might add that they're dirt cheap if you play your cards right, and dare i forget the greatest
thing about 'em- they're fun. like going back to your childhood, but without the acne.

anthony
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> >
> >I never get over how nice people are in this forum. Do bicycles accelerate human evolution or
> >something?
> >
> >Elisa Roselli Paris, France
> Funnily enough, the answer to that is "Yes". Bicycles being one of the earliest forms of
> individual transport, they permitted marriage between neighbours more distant than had been the
> norm before. Hence more genes mixed, hence the species improved. (Define "improved".... ) However,
> things *really* got under way with the arrival of steam.

Your chronology seems wacky, or perhaps just your phrasing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/106826.stm

The first single-track two-wheeler with a saddle was made in 1818. The "ordinary" (aka
penny-farthing or high-wheeler) was invented in 1870, and the safety bicycle came along somewhere
around 1890.

http://www.sdrm.org/history/timeline/

Steam got its start in the 18th century, and the first commercial railways were running by 1812.

Since steam-powered rail was doing 60 mph by 1832, it seems fair to say that bicycles were never the
fastest public conveyance.

That said, bicycles did cause tremendous social changes, everything from giving cheap
medium-distance (say, 5-100 km/day) transport to all, causing the first campaigns for road
improvements, and encouraging the use of bloomers, a sartorial slippery slope which led straight to
Christina Aguilera.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
 
"Kirk Gordon" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>
> Assuming approximately equal distributions of mass, a 14" wheel would only have to spin 1.86
> times as fast as a 26" wheel in order to produce the same gyroscopic stabilization. As I
> explained, however, the gyro effect from a bicycle's wheels isn't the only think that matters.
> Steering is vital; but not as simple or complete a solution as you seem to believe.
>
>
> KG
>

I agree that the gyroscopic effect does affect riding behaviour. If I may switch to motorcycle
riding for a moment to draw a few comparisons...when maneouvering at relatively low speeds, say
20-30 mph, through a series of ess turns at a given lean angle, the effort required is relatively
low. When I go to the racetrack and try negotiating a series of ess turns with the same lean angle
(the turns are of much greater radius..) at speeds in the 100-110mph range, it is extremely
difficult to get the bike to change direction quickly enough from corner to corner. There is
certainly a gyroscopic effect at work that is causing me to work much harder to make those direction
changes. Indeed, manufacturers have built engines with two counter-rotating crankshafts to cancel
the gryo effect and make turning the bike easier. http://www.amasuperbike.com/nsr500mat.htm So there
is certainly a point where the gyro effect is a negative thing resulting in TOO much stability. And
if you've ever watched a motorcycle race, riderless bikes travelling at high speeds will continue to
do so, in nearly a straight line, for surprisingly long distances. And as they slow, they inevitably
become less stable and fall over.

Certainly the motorcycle comparisons don't equate to bicycles entirely. The speeds and mass are much
smaller as is the gyro effect. I'm not sure that it significantly affects the stability at most
speeds a cyclist is likely to achieve, but the effect would tend to increase stability as speed
increases. And this stability would also help to prevent us from making steering corrections of too
great a magnitude at higher speeds, where small corrections are called for. As an example, imagine
achieving your top speed on wheels that are 2" in diameter..a slight slip on the bars and you're
road kill!! But you certainly could ride this bike up to your normal top speed.

Scott..
 
Ryan Cousineau writes:

>> I think you can leave the Segway out of this. It's gyros are heavy and spinning at several
>> thousand rpm. Bicycles can be ridden at walking speeds where there are no perceptible
>> gyroscopic forces. That is why bicycles don't ride no-hands at walking speed without a greatly
>> skilled rider.

> There seems to be a misapprehension about how the Segway works. Its gyros are solid-state, and
> very light.

> The magic of the Segway is in its onboard computer, which, much like the stability system on a
> human being, makes constant small corrections to the attitude of the Segway by tweaking the
> output to the independent drive motors. That's one reason why it has redundant computer systems:
> if the computer fails, the Segway falls over immediately, much like the unstable-by-design F-16
> and F-117.

Good point. I completely forgot that this is a gyroscopically controlled machine rather than a
gyroscopically stabilized one. As you say, it is the computer control of the drive wheels that keeps
it upright. Just the same Dub'ya fell off his Segway in spite of that as we saw recently.

> I'm not sure what this has to do with your gyro debate, But Jobst's point is that there are many,
> many single-track vehicles which are stable without needing gyroscopic forces. Further, they
> behave so much like bicycles as to suggest that gyroscopic forces are not very important to the
> handling of a bicycle.

I think the example of someone running on a sidewalk making a turn at the corner is the best
example of that. The lean is initiated by running out from under the CG (countersteer, see URL
below) and the estimate of the angle required is derived from experience and estimation of speed.
There are people who cannot do this but that does not support the gyroscopic mode of balancing a
single track vehicle.

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/9.15.html

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
 
Kirk Gordon writes:

>>> The wheels on a bicycle ARE gyroscopes, and stabilize the bike EXACTLY the way that any gyro
>>> will stabilize anything it's attached to.

>> I think you'll have to establish that this as fact. Your claim, for instance, suggests that
>> folding bicycles with 14" diameter wheels do not become stable until nearly four times the speed
>> of conventional bicycles with wheels twice the diameter.

> The physics of gyroscopes was established as fact over a hundred years ago. It's well tested, well
> understood, and is relied on daily for things as diverse as navigation systems in ships and
> aircraft, Segway scooters, and kids' toys. You can buy a simple but fully functional gyroscope at
> any good toy store for a couple dollars. Pick one up some time and play with it. You might be
> surprised.

I am not surprised in the least. You don't have to go to a toy store, you can spin the front wheel
of a bicycle held at the axle while spinning to appreciate gyroscopic forces. However, these are so
small that many bicyclists cannot detect them and can therefore, not ride no-hands. These forces do
not keep the bicycle upright but they can be used to steer the bicycle by leaning it while riding
no-hands. With hands on the bars these forces are readily overcome and allow the rider to execute
far more rapid and precise cornering than using only "lean-steer".

If you doubt this, just try bumping one side of the bars forward with the palm of the hand while
riding no-hands. In fact, this is one of the subtle ways of illegally crashing an opponent in a
bicycle race. Just pull back on the end of the opponents handlebar that's closest. He will take a
dive, gyroscopic forces unchanged.

> Assuming approximately equal distributions of mass, a 14" wheel would only have to spin 1.86 times
> as fast as a 26" wheel in order to produce the same gyroscopic stabilization. As I explained,
> however, the gyro effect from a bicycle's wheels isn't the only think that matters. Steering is
> vital; but not as simple or complete a solution as you seem to believe.

The use of a counter-rotation wheel adjacent to the real front wheel, a test mentioned in this
thread, showed conclusively that such a bicycle has all the characteristics of the same bicycle
without the modification... except that it could not be ridden no-hands, a feature that became
apparent only when attempting to do that.

>> This is a spoof, isn't it?

> No. Just an attempt to be helpful, from someone who's studied physics, who makes his living as an
> engineer, and who's spent decades designing and building mechanical things like industrial
> machinery. I don't mean to sound arrogant, or to imply that I know any more than I really do; but
> some things are so basic, and so fundamental to the way that mechanical stuff works, that ignoring
> them can only lead to serious mistakes and misunderstandings.

I think you must not have had any experimental work so your theoretical appreciation of the
matter is entirely out of proportion to the magnitude of the effects, those discernable when
riding a bicycle.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
 
On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 20:06:17 -0700, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> >
>> >I never get over how nice people are in this forum. Do bicycles accelerate human evolution
>> >or something?
>> >
>> >Elisa Roselli Paris, France
>> Funnily enough, the answer to that is "Yes". Bicycles being one of the earliest forms of
>> individual transport, they permitted marriage between neighbours more distant than had been
>> the norm before. Hence more genes mixed, hence the species improved. (Define "improved".... )
>> However, things *really* got under way with the arrival of steam.
>
>Your chronology seems wacky, or perhaps just your phrasing.
Yup - slack.
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/106826.stm
>
>The first single-track two-wheeler with a saddle was made in 1818. The "ordinary" (aka
>penny-farthing or high-wheeler) was invented in 1870, and the safety bicycle came along
>somewhere around 1890.
>
>http://www.sdrm.org/history/timeline/
>
>Steam got its start in the 18th century, and the first commercial railways were running by 1812.
>
>Since steam-powered rail was doing 60 mph by 1832, it seems fair to say that bicycles were never
>the fastest public conveyance.
>
>That said, bicycles did cause tremendous social changes, everything from giving cheap
>medium-distance (say, 5-100 km/day) transport to all, causing the first campaigns for road
>improvements, and encouraging the use of bloomers, a sartorial slippery slope which led straight
>to Christina Aguilera.
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> Prometheus wrote:
> >
> > Leave the Engineer to decipher it all!
> >
> > Bicycles, yes, do have two large gyroscopes on their frames. If these present an inherent
> > stability at high speeds, why then do people like Mario Cipollini (sp?), currently the fastest
> > man on a bike at about 50mph...
>
> Sam Whittingham has gone 81.00 mph (130.36 kph) [1] under his own power on a bicycle.

Not at the end of a 5-hour race, though!

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.
 
On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:25:54 +0200, Elisa Francesca Roselli
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Actually, the slightest thing will perturb my balance. Looking to the side, trying to ring the
>bell, steering, shifting gears, being passed by a car, a sidewalk step, a strong breeze....
>
>I'm agog when I see cyclists yakking away on their mobile phones or pedalling with no hands.
>
>Practise continues.

Indeed, practise is what you need. Back when I was first learning to ride a bike (this was when I
was 4 or 5 -- I was a late bloomer, apparently), bnefore people had invented training wheels, that's
how it felt. It really does just come down to practise, over time. Try visiting a quiet park
somewhere and ride around there for a while each day, without distractions and without the risk of
running into someone if you swerve. Because you're starting later in life, it probably will take you
longer to get the reflexes completely built up than it would a young child. Such is the lot of
grown-ups, I guess.

Jasper
 
"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:20:18 -0400, archer
<ns_archer1960@ns_hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Because there's more than one way to keep it upright. The gyroscopic effect helps, but is not
> > >the only factor. There are people who can balance a stationary bicycle as well, so steering
> > >isn't the only source of stabilizing influence.
> >
> > Yes, they do it by steering. To be more exact, they steer in a
particular
> > direction, and then instead of moving side to side by steering two different ways, they move the
> > bike backwards or forwards, effectively reversing the effect of the steering from left to right
> > and vice versa.
>
> I'm not talking about a track stand;. I've seen people balance an otherwise completely motionless
> bike. Sort of like a tight-rope walker standing in one place.

Isn't a track stand balancing on an otherwise completely motionless bike?? If not, what the heck ARE
you talking about?

Andy Coggan
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> "David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > > On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:20:18 -0400, archer
> <ns_archer1960@ns_hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >Because there's more than one way to keep it upright. The gyroscopic effect helps, but is not
> > > >the only factor. There are people who can balance a stationary bicycle as well, so steering
> > > >isn't the only source of stabilizing influence.
> > >
> > > Yes, they do it by steering. To be more exact, they steer in a
> particular
> > > direction, and then instead of moving side to side by steering two different ways, they move
> > > the bike backwards or forwards, effectively reversing the effect of the steering from left to
> > > right and vice versa.
> >
> > I'm not talking about a track stand;. I've seen people balance an otherwise completely
> > motionless bike. Sort of like a tight-rope walker standing in one place.
>
> Isn't a track stand balancing on an otherwise completely motionless bike?? If not, what the heck
> ARE you talking about?

In a track stand, they pressure the pedals forwards and backwards, working with the steering to hold
the bike in _nearly_ one place. I'm talking about something like a tightrope walker standing in
place on the high wire, where there is no fore-and-aft motion involved at all.

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.
 
[email protected] wrote:

>>David Jones (physicist) constructed a number of experimental bikes while doing some empirical
>>studies of bicycle stability. One of these had a counter-rotating wheel mounted on the fork.
>>There was no significant impact on stability. Other factors (fork trail) are much more important.

>Was this what I recall as being an attempt todesign an Unrideable Bike? I remember reading of this
>a long time ago >(the '70s could well be it). I have the impression it was being done in a Yoonie
>in NE England. One newspaper drawing I saw showed one version had a t-i-n-y front wheel, trailing
>from the fork bottom. Dunno if it ever got off the ground (in a manner of speaking).

[email protected] wrote:

> ...how come a Skibob can be ridden just like a bicycle, in fact it is a bicycle with a front and
> a read ski runner on a bicycle like frame.
>
> The use of a counter-rotation wheel adjacent to the real front wheel, a test mentioned in this
> thread, showed conclusively that such a bicycle has all the characteristics of the same bicycle
> without the modification... except that it could not be ridden no-hands, a feature that became
> apparent only when attempting to do that.

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> ...there are many, many single-track vehicles which are stable without needing gyroscopic forces.
> Further, they behave so much like bicycles as to suggest that gyroscopic forces are not very
> important to the handling of a bicycle.

> The magic of the Segway is in its onboard computer, which, much like the stability system on a
> human being, makes constant small corrections to the attitude of the Segway by tweaking the
> output to the independent drive motors. That's one reason why it has redundant computer systems:
> if the computer fails, the Segway falls over immediately, much like the unstable-by-design F-16
> and F-117.

I certainly don't want this to turn into a long and involved debate about physics or mechanics;
but I find it interesting, and I hope that others do, as well.

There are several issues involved in the stability of a bicycle, a vehicle like a Skibob, or
something like an aircraft or a Segway scooter. Clearly, the balance and skill of the rider (or
some other control system) is the most important factor. The original mention of gyroscopes came
from PB Walther, who wrote that "Gyroscopic forces give bikes increased stability at higher
speeds." That's true. It can't be otherwise.

In order to remain upright, a byclcle, or a motorcycle, or a Skibob, or a Segway, needs to
achieve balance by keeping its center of mass (including the rider) directly above a line which
is formed between the points where wheels, skis, or whatever, make contact with the ground. Or,
to be more complete and accurate, the vector sum of all the forces, including gravity, which act
on the vehicle and its rider must be directed at that contact line. When riding in a straight
line, the only significant force affecting a vehicle's ability to remain upright is gravity.
(Except a Segway, whose left and right wheel arrangment makes it unstable in a fore and aft
direction and therefore brings wind resistance into play.) Shifting weight slightly is one way
to keep the weight directly above the contact line. Another way is to turn the vehicle slightly
when it tries to tip, to drive the contact line underneath the center of mass.

In real life, however, other forces besides gravity affect a vehicle. Imperfections in the road
(or ice, or snow) surface will bump the wheels or skis to one side or another, and will
therefore move the contact line out from under the center of mass. Crosswinds will try to move
the center of mass away from vertical. Each of these, and many others, must be corrected for by
turning the vehicle, or by shifting weight.

And, when a vehicle is turning, centrifugal force from the turn adds a horizontal component to
the normal downward gravity force vector. This is why it's necessary to lean left or right when
the vehicle is turning. The combination of centrifugal force (horizontal) and gravity (vertical)
creates a "net force" which isn't perpendicular to the ground; but is slightly angled. The rider
must lean to match that angle, or the vehicle will tip over (toward the outside of the turn).

On any vehicle I can think of, all of the various forces of instability can be managed by
steering or shifting of weight. That's why it's possible to ride a unicycle, which is inherently
unstable in every conceivable way. It's also why "unstable by design" aircraft can fly. Their
riders (the computerized onboard attitude controls) maintain stability by quick, constant, and
subtle adjustment of the control surfaces on the aircraft's wings and tail - the equivalent of
controling stability by steering or by shifting of forces.

What's special and different about a bicycle (or a motorcycle, which is pretty much the same
thing) is that it has problems with stability that most other vehicles don't have; and that it
has the advantage of spinning wheels - gyroscopes - to make up for it's key weakness.

An airplane is a large surface area which makes contact with the air on which it flies at a very
large number of points, and which has control surfaces located at it's extremes. It spreads
itself out over a large area, and can apply steering and stabilizing forces at several places,
in a whole range of directions, and can therefore manage the forces which act on it with extreme
precision. A Skibob contacts the ground (or snow), with two rectangular patches. The skis aren't
just points on which the vehicle is balanced. They're flat (sorta) surfaces that work very much
like shape of an airplane, or the V-shaped hull of a boat. When turning, or when pushed away
from vertical by any force, the Skibob automatically, necessarily, shifts its contact with the
snow to the edges of the skis (rather than their centerlines), and thereby moves its contact
line in the same direction as the center of mass is moved. That helps maintain stability. Yes,
the skis are narrow, and the effect is small; but small adjustments for small forces are all it
takes to stay upright, as long as those corrections are applied quickly enough to prevent gross
instability.

The weakness I mentioned, which bicycles have and other vehicles don't, is that fact that a
bicycle touches the ground only at two tiny points. (Yes, there's a small contact "patch" caused
by tire deformation; but that's too small to matter.) The line formed between these two points
is like a circus performer's high wire. The rider must keep himself directly above that line (by
balance and shifting weight), or must keep the line directly underneath himself (by steering
corrections), or the bike has no choice but to tip over. Vehicles like Skibobs, or ice skates,
or roller blades, make contact with the ground (or whatever surface) in a completely different
way. Their blades, or skis, or rows of wheels, each form separate lines of contact with the
ground, and the relations of those separate lines to one another can be changed in ways that can
add significant stability.

Think about an ice skater, gliding down the ice with his blades side by side. Each blade is a
line of conact with the ice surface, and each has a length which extends both forward and
backward from the skater's center of mass. There's a "control pattern" on the ice that's shaped
like the letter "H". The blades of the skates form the left and right sides of the H, and the
imaginary left/right line between the centers of the skates is formed by the legs of the skater.
The skater can remain upright as long as his or her center of mass is anywhere inside the four
corners of the contact pattern. And, stability can be maintained by shifting weight slightly
toward one corner or the other. If some force tries to tip the skater to his left, then it's
only necessary to exert a little more downard force with the left leg, and the tipping can be
counter-acted. If something on the ice interfere's with the skates, and slows them a bit, then
the center of mass of the skater will start to move faster than the skates, and the skater will
start to fall forward. In that case, the skater needs only to push downward with his or her
toes, transfer force to the forward points of the skate blades, and stability can be regained.
Falling backward is avoided, of course, by lifting the toes slightly, transferring weight to the
skater's heels, and relying on the tail end of the skate blades to transfer that force to the
ice, keeping contact with the ice behind the skater's center of mass, and maintaining vertical
stability. In other cases, the relationship between the skates can be changed. Sliding one skate
out ahead of the other can dramatically extend the fore and aft length of the contact pattern.
Spreading the skates wide apart in a side to side direction can make the skater extremely stable
against lateral tipping forces. And combinations of those two actions, used in continuous, fluid
ways, can allow a skater to remain upright under even very demanding conditions. The net result
of all this gives the skater an infinite range of choices about the size, shape, and aspect
ratio of the contact pattern, and the arrangment of contact points with respect to his center of
mass. It's an incredibly flexible and stable way to move.

Roller blades are essentially identical to ice skates. For the purposes of stability, there's no
real difference between blades on a low-friction surface, and small rollers on wood or concrete.

When a skater glides on just one skate, of course, then all the rules change. The situation is
very unstable, since the H shaped contact pattern has now been reduced to a single line where a
single blade meets the ice. The only source of stability is the skater's own skill and balance,
and the ability to make tiny, subtle, fore and aft adjustments in weight, or slight steering
corrections to keep the skate under the center of mass. This is why skating on one foot is so
much harder than skating on two.

When a skater moves back and forth from one skate to the other - the normal action we think of
in terms of skating, the situation is one of relatively high, but constantly shifting,
stability. When pushing with the left skate, the skater is actually falling to his or her right.
When the fall has progressed far enough, of course, then the right skate is returned to the ice.
The fall is corrected, then reversed; and then the skater starts to push right and fall left.
The H pattern for contact and stability still exists. Its various parts and pieces are just
being used selectively and sequentially.

A Skibob, or ski-bike, even if the width of it's skis is ignored, also makes contact with the
ground (or snow) in two lines. The lines are arranged fore and aft of the center of mass, and
only one of them is steerable, so the inherent stability is smaller than for ice skates; but
still greater than for a bicycle. When traveling in a perfectly straight line, the contact lines
of the skis don't behave differently than the line between wheel contacts on a bicycle. It's a
high wire act with a sligtly wider wire. (Maybe more like a balance beam.) If you turn the front
ski, however, then the rules change completely. Now, instead of a single line of contact with
the ground (which is all a bicycle ever has), the ski-bike suddenly has two, non-parallel
contact lines. It's contact pattern becomes a kind of "T" shape. The rear (stationary) ski forms
the vertical stem of the T, and it's front (steerable) ski becomes the top cross of the T, even
though it's only slightly angled from the stem, rather than perpendicular to it. This angled
shape is inherently very stable. The forward tip of the front ski actually reaches out to one
side of the vehicle's centerline, while the trailing end of the forward ski extends the other
way, and the entire vehicle suddenly becomes much wider. Instead of balancing on a high wire or
a balance beam, the rider of a ski-bike can sit in the interior of a triangle. It's still
important to use balance, weight transfer, and leaning into turns, to achive maximum stability;
but the vehicle itself makes that easier, and can demand less precision.

A bicycle, unless it's flying through the air, or already lying on its side, makes contact with
the ground at exatly two points, which form exactly one line, which must be the center of
balance (or the focus of all combined force vectors) at all times. There is no way to change the
length or width of ground contact. There's no way, short of putting a foot on the ground, for a
rider to "spread out" over the ground to become more stable. It's a high-wire act, and can't be
anything else.

A bicycles's spinning wheels, however, help make things easier. They're gyroscopes, and they
resist tipping, turning, or any force which tries to tip or turn their axles.

In fact, they don't really resist. What they actually do is translate linear or coupled forces
which are perpendicular to the axles into "precessive" forces. If you imagine a bicycle wheel
hanging in space in front of you, with it's axle parallel to the floor, and the ends of the axle
pointing to your right and left, and the wheel spinning as if it wanted to roll away from you,
you can get an idea about how precession works. If you push upward on the right end of the axle,
the upward force you deliver will be translated into a force that will make the wheel want to
turn left. The right end of the axle will move away from you, the left end will move toward you
(a counter-clockwise pivot, if viwed from above); but the right end of the axle won't just move
upward (tipping the wheel to your left), even though you pushed that way. If you push down on
the right end of the axle, the results would be exactly the opposite. The right end would move
toward you, the left end would move away from you, the whole wheel would turn right; but the
axle would still be parallel to the floor. If you push forward (away from you) on the right end
of the axle, the wheel will want to pivot upward, driving the left end of its axle toward the
ceiling. If you pull back (toward you) with the right end of the axle, then the wheel will pivot
downward, toward the floor. If you keep pushing in the same direction (any direction
perpendicular to the axle), then the whole wheel starts to "precess". As its attitude changes in
response to your original push, the relationship between the direction you're pushing and the
new position of the wheel causes the translated force to rotate slightly. And as the wheel's
attitude continue to change, then so does the translation of forces. In the end, the wheel will
twist its axle in a circle, rather than moving in the direction you pushed it. If you've ever
watched a kid's toy gyroscope, or any kind of spinning top, twist and wobble on it's way to
falling over, you've seen precession in action. Gravity wants to push the top of the toy's axle
to the side, just like it would with anything that falls from a standing position. But the
gyroscopic effect makes the toy twist and spin, and resist falling over. As the toy's spinning
speed slows because of friction, the resistance to falling also decreases. The toy falls more
quickly, but also precesses more quickly, and ends up orbiting around the lower tip of its axle
at high speed, just before it touches the ground.

Bicycle wheels behave the same way. They have to. If you're riding your bike at any significant
speed, and if you keep the handlebar perfectly straight, and lean to your right, you're
effectively pushing downward on the right end of the wheel's axles. Like in the imaginary
experiment described above, the wheel won't want to lean with you; but will translate the
downward force, and will pivot clockwise (as viewed from the rider's perspective, looking down
at the wheel). The rear wheel can't precess very easily, since it's locked into alignment with
the bike's centerline. But the front wheel can move quite easily. The translated force of
precession makes the front wheel want to turn right
- exactly the way you'd want it to turn to correct for the fact that you're leaning right. Even
if you exert no force of your own on the handlebar (but assuming you don't prevent the bar from
turning), the gyroscopic action of the wheel will translate leaning forces into steering
forces, and will help to keep you balanced. (You won't be going straight, anymore; but you
won't fall over.)

If you lean to your left, that's essentially the same as pulling upward on the right end of the
wheels' axles, and it causes the front wheel of your bicycle to steer left, keeping you upright.

And, the heavier your wheels are, and the faster they're spinning, the more forceful they
become. At slow speeds, gryoscopic action is small, so the rider's balance and skill at steering
make most of the difference. As speeds increase, however, a bicycle will become stable all on
its own, and will become harder and harder to tip over. If you lean left and right, the bike
automatically resists the leaning action, and necessarily steers to correct. That's a very, VERY
nice natural compensation for the fact that you started out on a high-wire.

The other main factor that makes a bicycle rideable, in addition to skill in steering, and
gyroscopic stability, is the fact that the front wheel is located slightly forward of the
centerline around which the fork pivots. This is accomplished with bent forks on some bikes, or
with small weldments that place the wheel in front of straight forks, or with some combination
of those devices. If the fork on a bicycle were perfectly straight, and if the center of the
wheel were directly in line with the fork's pivot centerline, then the fork would still steer
the bicycle; but steering corrections to keep the bike upright would be much harder to do. The
wheel would need to roll far enough with every correction to get back under the center of mass,
every time you leaned or shifted even a little bit. It could do that; but it would take a lot
more time, and a lot more rolling, and much more dramatic corrections that you'd care for.

With the wheel in front of the fork, however, the wheel isn't just steered in a new direction
when you turn the handlebar. It's also swung through a slight arc, and the whole wheel is
actually moved a bit to the left or right of the bike. The contact line - that line formed
between the contact points where wheels touch the ground - is no longer parallel to the frame of
the bicycle. It's now slightly angled; and the wheel contact line can be underneath the center
of mass even if the frame isn't. The exact amount of offset between the fork centerline and the
front axle makes a huge difference in the way the bike steers, and in how much steering
correction is needed, and how much rolling speed is required, in order to correct for tipping
forces. In general, though, there is only a very small range of possible offsets that work well
and comfortably for a given wheel size. (I have a hunch that the offset should be different for
different size wheels; but I've never done the math, so I can't say for sure if that's a good or
valid idea.)

In one of his posts to this thread, FatBloke described an experimental bike that had an extra
wheel/gyro attached to the fork, and also one that had the front wheel trailing the fork
bottom. This would truly be an unrideable bike. The extra wheel, described as
counter-rotating (probably just driven by contact with the primary wheel, and therefore
spinning in the opposite direction), would indeed add to the total gyroscopic effect. But it
wouldn't add constructively. As described earlier, the precessive action of a wheel makes it
want to turn in the exact direction needed to correct for tipping or leaning. If another
wheel were added to the mix, spinning in the opposite direction, then that extra wheel would
increase the resistance to tipping with its extra spinning mass, but it would cancel the
automatic steering effect. The primary wheel would still want to turn the fork in the correct
direction; but the opposing wheel/gyro would want to twist the other way. This, of course, is
why it was reported that it was impossible to ride this bike hands-free. Since the rider of a
bike doesn't feel the gyroscopic forces directly; but only senses the results in terms of
steering and balance, I suspect that this would be a very strange ride. You'd lean slightly
to the left or right, intending to turn, and then find that the wheel hadn't responded as it
should. You'd have to do a lot more intentional steering than normal. And, that intentional
steering would be more difficult, because you'd be trying to twist two gyroscopes instead of
just one. Bad news, for sure.

And the front wheel which trails behind the fork? Disaster! If normal forks work by swinging the
front wheel right when you need to steer right, then a wheel which trailed the fork would swing
to the left of the frame's centerline when the rider tried to turn right. The wheel would still
be rolling in the correct direction, but that contact line between front and back wheels would
now be angled in the wrong direction, and would be moved away from the rider's center of mass,
instead of moving under it to maintain stability. This bike could probably only be ridden at
very high speeds, so that steering corrections would all be tiny, and so that front wheel roll
did nearly all of the contact line adjustment, and so that the off-line swing of the bassackward
wheel would be minimized. How you'd get to high speeds without falling and dying is a more
difficult question.

Over all, the physics and mechanics of a bicyle are astonishingly intricate, considering what a
simple and taken-for-granted thing a bicycle is to most people. That's one of the reasons for my
interest in bikes, in addition to the fact that I love riding.

I've often thought that a bicycle would be the ideal focus of a full year science class for
grade-school kids. You could teach manual dexterity and some elementary mechanical skills, and
the proper use of basic hand tools for assenmbling and servicing the bike. You could develop
some basic knowledge of how mechanical things work, and perhaps a healthy curiosity about
countless other things. You could introduce the metric system, and get kids to start thinking
naturally in metrics, instead of being stuck with mental coversions all their lives. ("That's
right, Johnny. The 12 millimeter box wrench is just slightly bigger than 7/16ths, but not quite
as big as a half inch. Hold them up together, or try them on that nut, and you can see for
yourself.") You could teach safety, provide fun and exercise, and instill a sense of real,
tangible pride about maintenance tasks or riding skills practiced and mastered - skills that
kids normally WANT to learn, which is one of the reasons why bikes are so popular in the first
place. You could teach road rules and traffic safety ideas that would continue to serve as the
kids became older and more active on their bikes, or later learned to drive cars. You could
teach a whole world of basic science and math concepts. The relationship between the diameter of
a wheel and its circumference is just a funny greek letter in an ordinary math class. But that
same concept would become real speed and fun if you could actually ride the problem yourself,
instead of just looking at it on a blackboard. The basics of gear ratios and mechanical
advantage would be easy, and would be a great head start for kids when they later (if they're
lucky) encountered more involved classes in physics and mechanics. There's air pressure in
tires, and a whole branch of science that could be introduced from that. And there's the tensile
strength of wheel spokes, and the compression strength of a seat tube, and the inherent strength
and stability of triangular or tetrahedral shapes in a frame. (No, you're not going to teach the
kids structural mechanics; but you can at least get them thinking, and speaking the language,
and teach them to look at the world in ways that will make future science education more fun an
easy.) And a bike class would be an effortless way to start kids thinking about problems in time
and distance. (Remember those godawful math class problems where Sally rode eight miles per hour
for 30 minutes, and then rode twelve miles per hour for 90 minutes, and the teacher wanted to
know how far Sally rode, and what her average speed was? I hated those problems; but I bet
they'd have been a lot easier, and a lot more fun, and a lot more likely to teach me something,
if me and Sally had just climbed on our bikes and done the riding and timing.) There's friction
and wind resistance, and how come the wheel slows down and stops, even if I spin it real fast?
And if you dealt carefully with things like the combinations of pedal rates, and gear ratios,
and wheel diameters, all in a fun and interactive context, you could have the little tykes doing
real science and mathematics before they ever realized it. And by then it would be too late, of
course. They'd already have learned something. And the kids could be healthier, and could get
some fresh air to go along with classroom and workshop stuff. They could learn cooperation and
teamwork, if the kids outnumbered the bikes in class by maybe two or three to one. (And the cost
of cheap bikes would be nothing compared to what many schools now spend on science equipment,
even though most of that goes completely to waste.) And...

Well... You get the idea. Bikes are cool, and understanding them at every level is good exercise
for any brain. And I need to quit typing and get some work done.

Cheers, everyone!

KG
 
On 19 Jun 2003 13:58:32 GMT, [email protected] (Pbwalther) wrote:

>the talking about descending with feet out of the pedals is taken from accounts or high wheel
>riders doing this on descents and I figured that some diamond frame fixed gear riders must have
>done it also.

According to the fixie riders I know, this is widely regarded as Very Foolish Behaviour as getting
your feet back into the clips at over 100rpm can be a real problem :)

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com Advance
notice: ADSL service in process of transfer to a new ISP. Obviously there will be a week of downtime
between the engineer removing the BT service and the same engineer connecting the same equipment on
the same line in the same exchange and billing it to the new ISP.
 
On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:48:21 GMT, Jasper Janssen <[email protected]> wrote:

>Back when I was first learning to ride a bike [...] bnefore people had invented training wheels

That's the recommended way: no training wheels. Take the pedals off, move the seat down, let them
scoot to get the feel for it, pedals back on and away they go. It worked for my children, anyway.
Or rather, having tried training wheels with the first we tried none with the second and he "got
it" in no time.

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com Advance
notice: ADSL service in process of transfer to a new ISP. Obviously there will be a week of downtime
between the engineer removing the BT service and the same engineer connecting the same equipment on
the same line in the same exchange and billing it to the new ISP.
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

...

> I certainly don't want this to turn into a long and involved debate about physics or
> mechanics; but I find it interesting, and I hope that others do, as well.

Nice article! Did you just write this, or had you done it before? I particularly like your idea
about the "science of bicycling" class for schools!

....

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.
 
archer wrote:
> In a track stand, they pressure the pedals forwards and backwards, working with the steering to
> hold the bike in _nearly_ one place. I'm talking about something like a tightrope walker standing
> in place on the high wire, where there is no fore-and-aft motion involved at all.

You can rotate your body as a whole one way by rotating another part the other way; this then
affects the external torque that gravity applies to the whole system, and so you can balance the
entire system in this indirect way.

Carrying a long pole makes the rotation of the ``other part'' easy. Tightrope walkers without a pole
fall off more.

Simple thought experiment version: you're leaning 45 degrees right, and you spin up a motor you're
holding, and the reverse torque from the starting motor raises you erect. Then you are erect
holding a spinning motor. You can go a little past erect and then slowly stop the motor, the
reaction from this being just enough to raise you back erect again. Then you're perfectly balanced
with nothing rotating.

Baasically you store angular momentum somewhere temporarily when you need torque for this or that.
You get external torque by playing your angle against gravity.
--
Ron Hardin [email protected]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
 
"archer" <ns_archer1960@ns_hotmail.com> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > "David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > > > On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:20:18 -0400, archer
> > <ns_archer1960@ns_hotmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Because there's more than one way to keep it upright. The
gyroscopic
> > > > >effect helps, but is not the only factor. There are people who can balance a stationary
> > > > >bicycle as well, so steering isn't the only
source
> > > > >of stabilizing influence.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, they do it by steering. To be more exact, they steer in a
> > particular
> > > > direction, and then instead of moving side to side by steering two different ways, they move
> > > > the bike backwards or forwards,
effectively
> > > > reversing the effect of the steering from left to right and vice
versa.
> > >
> > > I'm not talking about a track stand;. I've seen people balance an otherwise completely
> > > motionless bike. Sort of like a tight-rope
walker
> > > standing in one place.
> >
> > Isn't a track stand balancing on an otherwise completely motionless
bike??
> > If not, what the heck ARE you talking about?
>
> In a track stand, they pressure the pedals forwards and backwards, working with the steering to
> hold the bike in _nearly_ one place. I'm talking about something like a tightrope walker standing
> in place on the high wire, where there is no fore-and-aft motion involved at all.

When I do a track stand out on the road, there is no fore-and-aft motion involved (except when I
lose my balance), and "working with the steering" has nothing to do with it - it's simply crank the
handlebars well over to one side, stand up, and press down just hard enough on the leading pedal to
balance the gravitational force that would otherwise have me rolling backwards down the slope
created by the crown of the road. Doing it on a fixed gear isn't any different, really, except that
you can work with as well as against gravity (or if you prefer to look at it another way, against
gravity both forwards and backwards).

Now if you claim that somebody can balance in place with the handlebars pointing dead ahead, then
you ARE talking about something different...

Andy Coggan
 
On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 10:43:22 -0400, archer <ns_archer1960@ns_hotmail.com> wrote:

>In a track stand, they pressure the pedals forwards and backwards, working with the steering to
>hold the bike in _nearly_ one place. I'm talking about something like a tightrope walker standing
>in place on the high wire, where there is no fore-and-aft motion involved at all.

A tightrope walker doesn't stay in one place, he balances by shifting his weight from side to side.
It's just like standing on two feet in the first place, except you mostly lose the ability to
correct by using muscles to move the position of your foot, plus your contact patch is much smaller
so if you get too far out of whack you'll have a very hard time correcting.

Jasper
 
On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:06:27 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 19 Jun 2003 13:58:32 GMT, [email protected] (Pbwalther) wrote:
>
>>the talking about descending with feet out of the pedals is taken from accounts or high wheel
>>riders doing this on descents and I figured that some diamond frame fixed gear riders must have
>>done it also.
>
>According to the fixie riders I know, this is widely regarded as Very Foolish Behaviour as getting
>your feet back into the clips at over 100rpm can be a real problem :)

If the pedals are still going that fast, you don't need to get back in the clips yet.. Unless you
rely on backwards pressure for braking and don't have a working brake otherwise. This is very
foolish behaviour even if you don't pull out of the pedals, though, IMHO.

Jasper
 
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