When will Contadope be caught?

dS - unfortunately all I am talking about is how doping is affecting cycling when really all I want to be talking about is how Rasmussen and Rabobank destroyed Discovery and Contador to 'win' the TdF

It is not doping that has ruined the tour it is the damn doping controls, the races with doping have been superb .... bar last years pile of cack with Landis, which as it happens would have been awesome if it had been an Ulrich vs Basso doped to the max post Armstrong face off!

Grrrr

saluki said:

1. Which definition of sociopath are you using?

2. Is every doper a sociopath - Kloden for instance?

3. Are you an altruist?

here are the answers to your questions, saluki

1. I am using the definition from the American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy: "Someone whose social behavior is extremely abnormal. Sociopaths are interested only in their personal needs and desires, without concern for the effects of their behavior on others

2. Not every doper is a sociopath. Some dope just to keep up. Others, like LA, dope to the EXTREME in order to satisfy the desire to win. He doped and got cancer, then AFTER recover, he doped AGAIN. That is pretty ABNORMAL wouldnt you say? Wouldnt a normal person not risk health again? he also built his entire persona around being clean without a moral conscience. As long as it is satisfying his enormous ego, then his extreme behavior is justified in his mind.

3. depending in your definition of altruism, both yes and no :p

Excellent post, attack the great Satan that is Armstrong and avoid answering the question about your favorite rider. Great stuff! But you need to attack Nike as well.

plectrum said:

back to my point dS - LA wasn't so very average, he was the best TdF cyclist of all time - 7 time champion and cylimg at a time where the best worldwide cyclists were competing with more doping products than ever.

You see whatever your points are they don't make sense - lets take TdF 2003 - everyone was on drugs but he came out on top - so how does this happen if he is so 'average'.

Please do not try to justify your view by claiming that he had better drugs as doping is a simpler science than training and many cyclists and teams had oodles of money and access to superb doping programs.

Although there may have been cyclists with bigger hearts, or larger VO2 etc etc LA obviously had the complete package, and if you take out the constants i.e. doping products (as everyone had them) what made Lance so different, so much better especially if as you say he was physically worse off than competitors such as Ulrich - maybe it was technique eh or maybe he isn't so physically inferior as you state.

p.s. I still do not respect LA if as deeply suspected he doped, but I do not blame him.

youre missing a very important point and that is different drugs effect people differently. some athletes benefit MORE than others even though ALL may be on peds, some still get an advantage? that is the material point

plectrum said:

Sorry Tim, I have been on this board for what a month now and I have still yet to see a useful comment, a personal viewpoint or a response from you that isn't antagonistic or agitating.

All I can say 'slim' is would the real Tim Lamkin please stand up.

Is good enough to keep you coming back, if I make it to complicated you will fail to understand….BTW and what you say is worthwhile
😄

Klodifan said:

here are the answers to your questions, saluki

1. I am using the definition from the American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy: "Someone whose social behavior is extremely abnormal. Sociopaths are interested only in their personal needs and desires, without concern for the effects of their behavior on others

2. Not every doper is a sociopath. Some dope just to keep up. Others, like LA, dope to the EXTREME in order to satisfy the desire to win. He doped and got cancer, then AFTER recover, he doped AGAIN. That is pretty ABNORMAL wouldnt you say? Wouldnt a normal person not risk health again? he also built his entire persona around being clean without a moral conscience. As long as it is satisfying his enormous ego, then his extreme behavior is justified in his mind.

3. depending in your definition of altruism, both yes and no :p

Do you even read what you type, you really believe this.

Tim Lamkin said:

Do you even read what you type, you really believe this.

In any case--they all abuse drugs. If they have access to super chemo drugs (RSR-13), then they would abuse those too.

RSR-13 balloons the red cells by 30-50% and thins the cell wall for 1) easy for chemo to kill and/or 2) easier for oxygen transfer.

Add cow blood, aspirin thinners, Viagra, Pot Belge and EPO and stand back.

Klodifan said:

youre missing a very important point and that is different drugs effect people differently. some athletes benefit MORE than others even though ALL may be on peds, some still get an advantage? that is the material point

Quite true. However, it does not preclude the athletes/trainers/sponsors/directors from insisting on trying anything and everything.

plectrum said:

dS - unfortunately all I am talking about is how doping is affecting cycling when really all I want to be talking about is how Rasmussen and Rabobank destroyed Discovery and Contador to 'win' the TdF

It is not doping that has ruined the tour it is the damn doping controls, the races with doping have been superb .... bar last years pile of cack with Landis, which as it happens would have been awesome if it had been an Ulrich vs Basso doped to the max post Armstrong face off!

Grrrr

hey, i'm with you here... let them go for it... let them use doctors to keep them withing safe limits etc, etc.. for me pro-cycling is entertainment i don't hold these guys up on a pedistal and think about pro cycling as some sort of holy endeavour... and as long as it's fair... and it was fair... everyone knew what they were testing for and knew how to get around it and only if you were stupid or careless did you get caught... now the riders don't know what to think or do... french riders get screwed because they have to do longitudinal testing... it's a mess and it's not fair. if you are testing in such an obviously and purposefully inadequate manner and human nature being what it is and pro-cycling being what it has been... for all intents and purpose ,doping has been legal for the last 100 years... if they really wanted to stop doping they would institute longitudinal testing, profiling etc but they don't... it's a farce.. they won't even test the rider's blood from Puerto that's how you know this whole exercise is just a big joke. but if sponsors demand that the riders be clean then the riders have to ride clean they are paying for all of this and if their wishes are not met it's over... so the UCI needs to get there heads butts and do something about it...

i'm not against doping for any kind of moral reasons, i'm against it for practical reasons... like if they don't do something all the sponsors are going to go away and pro-cycling is going to go away and i don't want it to go away

and like you i'm still [censored] to this day that i didn't get to see Basso and Ullrich go head to head... i could care less if they are doped to the gills

doctorSpoc said:

you're guess is as good as mine, but i'm not going to swallow the [censored] being spat out by his PR machine... Coyle tested LA for much of his career and we know for a fact that LA in physiolical terms was very, very average for a pro-cyclist... if we know something we know that...

if i would guess, i would guess exactly what you told me not to tell you... LA had to have a methology, system, substance that no one else had.

we see that pre hematocrit cap at 50% and pre EPO testing Ullrich had 30-40min climbing wattages of 474W (71kg rider equivalency) but after the hematocrit cap and EPO testing he dropped to 440-450W (armstrong's range). he would have demolished Armstrong and every other cycist in the pro peleton at these levels.. he would have went past Rassmussen like he was standing still.

Armstrong had Ferrari designing his training and dopping regime. Ferrari is not just a dope doctor he is also one of the world permier trainers (along with Cyrille Guimard) so i'm sure that helped... as well LA had incredible drive and determination... just a note as well, corntary to popular belief Charmichael was not LAs trainer... Charmichael was a smoke screen for LA to work with Ferrari.. if you read Charmichael 's book it is complete and utter bs...

but please, please don't tell me about LAs exceptional physical attributes because we know that for a fact that this is PR, BS used to get people to swollow LAs sudden performance transformation...

+1

It is amazing how many people get sucked in by self-serving PR swill.

How come LA is a very, very average rider and he won 7 TDFs, dominated JU in all aspects of riding, and yet......JU is a super human being and only one TDF? Lance made him look like a puppy dog sitting on the porch.
You guys are in the middle of a circle jerk.......

Klodifan said:

1. I am using the definition from the American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy: "Someone whose social behavior is extremely abnormal. Sociopaths are interested only in their personal needs and desires, without concern for the effects of their behavior on others

2. Not every doper is a sociopath. Some dope just to keep up. Others, like LA, dope to the EXTREME in order to satisfy the desire to win. He doped and got cancer, then AFTER recover, he doped AGAIN. That is pretty ABNORMAL wouldnt you say? Wouldnt a normal person not risk health again? he also built his entire persona around being clean without a moral conscience. As long as it is satisfying his enormous ego, then his extreme behavior is justified in his mind.

3. depending in your definition of altruism, both yes and no :p

You say, "Some dope just to keep up." Do you think that Kloden is doping just to keep up or is he doping to excel?

Using your definition of "without concern for the effects of their behavior on others", do you think that when Kloden dopes that he is concerned with the effect that it has on others? I mean beyond the effect of allowing him to bury other.

Quoted post said:

Others, like LA, dope to the EXTREME in order to satisfy the desire to win.

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Armstrong doped; how do you know if he doped more or less than Kloden. Where is your evidence?

And why would it be okay to dope a little bit in order to fulfill your desire to win, but not a lot. Do you actually see a moral distinction there?

And are you such an extremist that you think that Armstrong knew that he contracted cancer from doping and despite that went back to a very high level of doping for more than seven years? And if that is the case, why didn't he contract it again?

Bro Deal said:

I am often amazed at how bone [censored] stupid people can be.

I know what you mean. You amaze me like that every time you post.

Tim Lamkin said:

Do you even read what you type, you really believe this.

well, on the one hand, I guess I should proofread my posts for clarity and to correct my frequent egregious typos. on the other hand, why bother, its just a message board. and to answer the intent of your question, yes, I really believe what i wrote about la pre and post cancer

first of all, the only reason you are bringing kloden into this, saluki, is to be a foil to me. I was merely responding to someone else's post regarding la. and anyways, its a broken record and utterly futile as neither side will be convinced. although, i have to say, it is astonishing how rabid people are regarding the fraud that is lance armstrong.

secondly, when i look at la i see a person who is "extremely abnormal". he was fixated on only winning the tdf and was maniacal in his preparation. this has been well documented as you are well aware. obsessive is an understatement. i dont see kloden having the same personality at all. they really are opposites in a lot of ways. and i admit that my heart wants to believe andreas is clean. my head knows this is most likely not the case. but to address your question, if he does dope, its probably b/c it is part of the system he was raised in and it is part of the culture he is part of now. if he were sociopathic like la he would not have sacrificed himself over and over again. forget the fact that we are engaged in debate, can you honestly say kloden exhibits the same sociopathic tendencies as la? there have been articles written about the possible causes of testicular cancer. lance's ped use made him susceptible to it. why do people ignore the facts?

i think my post is getting convoluted as i have had to tend to my poor little ill beagle so my train of thought is scattered. anyways, i dont think it is right to dope at all. but using t patches is a lot less extreme than blood from a calf.

finally, yes, i am also an extremist in a lot of ways, though not to sociopathic levels while also being fair and open-minded. unfortunately, today's society doesnt allow both and is quick to categorize people. it is very simplistic and lazy in that way.

Enter the fat lady:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/aug07/aug08news

"The World Anti Doping Agency has opened an investigation on Alberto Contador (Discovery Channel), winner of this years Tour de France, and his alleged involvement in Operation Peurto..."

mitosis said:

Enter the fat lady:
cyclingnews.comnews.phpOpen ↗

"The World Anti Doping Agency has opened an investigation on Alberto Contador (Discovery Channel), winner of this years Tour de France, and his alleged involvement in Operation Peurto..."

HAMBURG, Germany: Tour de France champion Alberto Contador is not welcome to race in the Pro-Tour's Cyclassics event on Aug. 19.

Organizers of the one-day race in Hamburg said that although he was unlikely to have competed anyway, Contador isn't welcome because he has been implicated in the Spanish blood-doping scandal known as "Operation Puerto."

"Our basic position is that we don't want any rider from the Fuentes list," chief organizer Frank Bertling said Wednesday.

whiteboytrash said:

HAMBURG, Germany: Tour de France champion Alberto Contador is not welcome to race in the Pro-Tour's Cyclassics event on Aug. 19.

Organizers of the one-day race in Hamburg said that although he was unlikely to have competed anyway, Contador isn't welcome because he has been implicated in the Spanish blood-doping scandal known as "Operation Puerto."

"Our basic position is that we don't want any rider from the Fuentes list," chief organizer Frank Bertling said Wednesday.

I take it Valverde's not riding?

whiteboytrash said:

HAMBURG, Germany: Tour de France champion Alberto Contador is not welcome to race in the Pro-Tour's Cyclassics event on Aug. 19.

Organizers of the one-day race in Hamburg said that although he was unlikely to have competed anyway, Contador isn't welcome because he has been implicated in the Spanish blood-doping scandal known as "Operation Puerto."

"Our basic position is that we don't want any rider from the Fuentes list," chief organizer Frank Bertling said Wednesday.

Cheap German pr action (as usual), as Contador wasn't planning to start anyway. If Disco had have him in their roster there was nothing the Cyclassics could do about it.

cyclingheroes said:

Cheap German pr action (as usual), as Contador wasn't planning to start anyway. If Disco had have him in their roster there was nothing the Cyclassics could do about it.

They could ban him from thinking about thinking of riding. 🙄