Who ELSE is doping in the peloton?

birdman23 said:

Everyone talks about Lance doping and frankly I am getting sick and tired of reading the same old boring arguments. Nothing but repetition. So out of curiosity I put it to the forum to see who else is a doper. Feel free to add any names.

Why can't I tick 'All of the above"!

birdman23 said:

Everyone talks about Lance doping and frankly I am getting sick and tired of reading the same old boring arguments. Nothing but repetition. So out of curiosity I put it to the forum to see who else is a doper. Feel free to add any names.

They all need to go 2 a rehab & if they don't use, then it will deter them frm using dope n the future. You asked 4 it, I gave it 2 u. 🙂

birdman23 said:

Everyone talks about Lance doping and frankly I am getting sick and tired of reading the same old boring arguments. Nothing but repetition. So out of curiosity I put it to the forum to see who else is a doper. Feel free to add any names.

how about none of the above? :p
Or prove it to me with test results? 🙁

mareblu said:

how about none of the above? :p
Or prove it to me with test results? 🙁

I guess I need to clarify. I don't think Lance is doping and I am sick of people saying he is so I just wanted to see who else people think are doping 😉

mocka58 said:

Why can't I tick 'All of the above"!

I guess I can add an "all" or "none" option. Anyone know how to edit a poll?

I think, at this point, I have to smoke some dope to make further discussion of this nature interesting...

Lance is probablly the most tested rider out there. If he was doping, you would now about it.

On a side note:

What is this [censored] with Simeoni??? Saying that Lance thretened him?

Simeoni was quoted by Gazzetta as saying that while he rode with Armstrong, the Texan said, "You made a mistake to speak against Ferrari, and you made a mistake to take legal action against me. I have money and time and lots of lawyers. I can destroy you."

So what Lance said that. Be a man and move on. So it appears not Lance may be charged with sporting fraud, violence, and intimidation of a witness.

Give me an effing break. The guy should have been pushed off the side of the mountain.

birdman23 said:

I guess I can add an "all" or "none" option. Anyone know how to edit a poll?

Hi

I've added the two options to the poll for you.

cheers

birdman23 said:

I guess I can add an "all" or "none" option. Anyone know how to edit a poll?

Sorry, I was really just being sarcastic when I made the 'all of the above" jibe. I believe that doping is still very prevelant in pro cycling. It's a part of the sport I don't like but I can accept it as I believe the majority of riders do it. I think Lance probably does use a little "artificial" help but I doubt it is anything that the rest of them aren't using too. I don't think he has found some secret elixer that has made him superhuman or invincible. I still think he is the best cyclist in the world. How many of us if we reached the appropriate level can say we wouldn't use them too. It's part of the culture of the sport and that is sad but it is a fact. If they are all on it who is really cheating?

personally I think that most if not all the riders in their quest for every possible advantage know exactly where the edge is and get as close to it as they can. In other words, they will raise their 'crit levels as high as possible through whatever means they have to use, if there is a new "supplement" out that isnt illegal; yet; it will be used in a heartbeat. It's hard to think of our heros as human, but they are. And as such are susceptible to the temptations that will smooth the road to success. Dont get me wrong, all these riders are amazing atheletes, doing super human feats. Let's just dont be blind. Sports, any sport not just ours, short of bowling, will suffer people trying whatever they can to gain that little edge. We as fans have to be vigilant in our disapproval so that blatant doping costs the doper money through the loss of sponsorships. The governing bodies need to be current in their test processes and constant in their efforts to combat the problem. Doping will never go away as long as their is money involved, and will only increase without due vigilance, but we can try to control it.

Cycling has come a long way since the Festina debacle a few years ago, there is still more work to be done. If we want riders to admit their past, and help clean up the sport we can not be so punitive that it will ruin a career. At that point dopers have nothing to lose, they get caught their done anyway, so why volunteer to be banned. The punishment should be stiff, but not disabling.

birdman23 said:

Everyone talks about Lance doping and frankly I am getting sick and tired of reading the same old boring arguments. Nothing but repetition. So out of curiosity I put it to the forum to see who else is a doper. Feel free to add any names.

Phil Liggett and possibly Bob Roll

🙂

Beastt said:

Phil Liggett and possibly Bob Roll

🙂

Bob Roll for sure and Robin Williams.The only reason I would consider Lance is that Cheryl Crowe thing but we all have personal preferences. I think she smokes payote( sorry if that is incorrect spelling). The Olympics are coming up lets get started on that. Who's first!!! Go Tyler! My Man!

jhuskey said:

Bob Roll for sure and Robin Williams.The only reason I would consider Lance is that Cheryl Crowe thing but we all have personal preferences. I think she smokes payote( sorry if that is incorrect spelling). The Olympics are coming up lets get started on that. Who's first!!! Go Tyler! My Man!

I don't think we should overlook Voeckler. Last year he wasn't even mentioned and this year, only his second year in the tour, he wears yellow for 10 days? Certainly the result of carefully administered banned substances. And of course Richard Virenque has cleaned up his doping technique in order to win 7 "King of the Mountains" titles. Then there is Basso who couldn't have dreamt of staying with Armstrong on a climb one year ago but was riding along beside him with a smile this year. Ullrich has to be included since he's been second for 5 years and has a history of drug use even if it was a recreational drug. Maybe that was just to throw the lab-techs off from finding the real PEDs. Then there's Tyler Hamilton who rode 19 stages with a broken collar bone, (2003), won Stage 16 and finished in forth place! I mean C'MON! This year he dropped out due to an injury to try to throw suspicion off of him.

Apparently Mayo's supplier has been caught somewhere along the line and he was unable to obtain his usual dosage this year. Robbie McEwen pulls a wheelie at the end of an ITT on l'Alpe d'Huez? PLEASE! He might as well have just waved the hypodermics in front of the race officials! Has anyone noticed how well Christophe Moreau has been riding? Bzzzzt! Sorry, Christophe, you're obviously doping. What about all of the other riders in the pack? Think about it. They churn those pedals around for over 100 kilometers, rain, sun, wind, mountains, spectators, then get right back on the bike the next day and do it all over again and keep this up for 3 weeks?

Robin Williams for sure. He's been acting like a college freshman on cocaine after gettin' laid for the first time for as long as he's been a celebrity and a bit before that. No way could he be clean. He makes 55-million dollars a year! He must be spending it on something, eh? And then we have all of the race officials, sitting in those cars all day, poking along at cycling speeds. They have doctors willing to sit in the back seat of team cars and clip the cyclists toe nails for them during the race? Any self-respecting doctor would be out on the golf course waiting for a patient to die somewhere in a distant waiting room rather than spending his life in the back seat of a car stuffed full of bike parts, tools, food and supplies. Why would they do that if they hadn't been shunned from the medical community for dipping into the meds cabinet a few too many times?

Has anyone seen the antics of the camera operators on the backs of those motorcycles? You don't want to try something like that while sober! It'd scare the fleas off a rat! No way are they doing that for several hours a day without a little boost to keep the courage up while squeezed in behind another man in the middle of the rain and under the burning sun day after day.

When you think about it, there are over 5,000 people who have to pack up every day and move the whole operation to the next town and keep this all up and functioning for 3-weeks straight. Hell, the riders probably don't have to bring any of their own dope. They can just bum a fix off of any of the thousands of workers who keep the whole event going. I'm betting the race referee is actually a columbian drug lord in the off season. No way is he going to make judgements against such a powerful, (rich), bunch of riders and survive unless he has a lot of muscle keeping the riders and the police away from him.

And what about those spectators? How drugged up do you have to be to stand on a one-lane, isolated stretch of road for a day and a half just to watch a bunch of doped up bicyclists come flying past like they're out for a Sunday jaunt? They don't even have the sense left to get out of the way as the riders come up the road. And the outfits they wear? Anyone seen those "this is your brain on drugs" commercials? When you choose to dress like that, you're demonstrating what happens to the brain after years and years of mixed and matched pills, powders and injections for sure!

And the spectators at home? You mean to tell me you think someone can sit in front of their television for 4 straight hours and watch the same commercials over and over and over every 10 - 15 minutes and not be on something? Please! Get real! We all know that the beer is just there to wash down the pills.

The only flaw in any of this is that evidence is lacking. Fortunately, we're a bit too clever to require anything as ridiculous as evidence. We know what we know and no amount of missing evidence can change that. Hell, I can sense someone doping just from seeing their name in print! These darned judges, doctors, lab-techs and race officials think they need real evidence before they can kick someone out? They should just go down the peleton and kick out the first 3 riders across the line each day, any rider involved in a break-away and anyone who can attack on an incline of more than 7%. Then, just to be sure, kick out every third rider at each checkpoint along the race route and any rider who gets up again after crashing. Then we could finally have a nice, clean, untainted sport!

(just kidding)

🙂

I've just had a very interesting conversation with a very trusted colleague
who went professional in the mid-1990's.
My friend has since been working in the oil industry in the former Soviet Union
and we got together with the wives for a meal this weekend.

Anyway, we discussed his career in the European peloton and his subsequent
cycling career while working in the Soviet Union.
My friend left the pro ranks because he refused to dope and without doping
he felt that he couldn't compete.
I put it to him that the blokes he couldn't compete with were probably just
better/fitter/more gifted etc.
He concured with this view to a certain point but he told me of how, guys who he beat at international level as an amateur, were literally destroying
in races in the pro ranks.
We kicked this subject around and he names names of guys he beat at amateur level who have gone on to enjoy some success as pros.
The names of these guys are prominent.

However, we switched the conversation to the former USSR.
My friend is a pretty mean track man and beat no less than Ekimov in the track championships over there several times.
What he told me about racing in places like Kazackstan and the Ukraine and
Russia is frightening.
I well remember coming up against the former Eastern Block countries in races
here in Ireland and we were invariably blasted by these guys (not that beating me would be a feather in anyones cap !).
These guys were able to train 24 hours a day and were well supported by the
Communist system in terms of being "products of communism and being able to beat the West" in their own game.
When the system collapsed out there, it appears that to gain success, the former Eastern Block has since been filled with drugs in order to ensure success (the need to win is now more pressing given that the structural support of Communism is gone and the only income comes from prize money).
He has said that the widespread use of drugs thoughout these regions is necessary of one wants to get results - to get a pro contract.

He had some interesting stuff about Ekimov which I won't publish for obvious reasons.

limerickman said:

I've just had a very interesting conversation with a very trusted colleague
who went professional in the mid-1990's.
My friend has since been working in the oil industry in the former Soviet Union
and we got together with the wives for a meal this weekend.

...

(...snip)

Well, as much as I prefer not to admit it, that's a lot of evidence. Of course it's only the comments of one person but as little as I really know about you, Limerickman, I have no reason to feel that you would mis-represent what was said or that your friend would have any less integrity than what I assess you to have.

With all of his comments concerning doping at the pro level, it's hard not to have it affect your outlook more than a little. I still feel that solid evidence is necessary before anyone can be determined to be doping but it would appear that the evidence is mounting. As much as I dislike having to admit this, it seems that the circumstantial evidence is continuing to point more and more strongly at the idea that alas... Ullrich may indeed be doping.

Beastt said:

Well, as much as I prefer not to admit it, that's a lot of evidence. Of course it's only the comments of one person but as little as I really know about you, Limerickman, I have no reason to feel that you would mis-represent what was said or that your friend would have any less integrity than what I assess you to have.

With all of his comments concerning doping at the pro level, it's hard not to have it affect your outlook more than a little. I still feel that solid evidence is necessary before anyone can be determined to be doping but it would appear that the evidence is mounting. As much as I dislike having to admit this, it seems that the circumstantial evidence is continuing to point more and more strongly at the idea that alas... Ullrich may indeed be doping.

Beastt,
My friend spoke almost exclusively about track racing and the activities of those people down in Kazakhstan and the Ukraine in particular.
His feeling was that the Eastern block riders HAVE to dope to survive.
Under Communism the state was prepared to pay their top people to train
and devote their lives to their chosen sport.
(and from reading about East German, to probably dope as well).
Now that the support structure for these athletes is gone, they now need
to put bread on the table thus the majority of them dope.
(in races in these locations).

I just thought that it was maybe some anecdotal evidence of what is currently going on, from someone who is out there cycling, might be of interest to the Forum.

limerickman said:

Beastt,
My friend spoke almost exclusively about track racing and the activities of those people down in Kazakhstan and the Ukraine in particular.
His feeling was that the Eastern block riders HAVE to dope to survive.
Under Communism the state was prepared to pay their top people to train
and devote their lives to their chosen sport.
(and from reading about East German, to probably dope as well).
Now that the support structure for these athletes is gone, they now need
to put bread on the table thus the majority of them dope.
(in races in these locations).

I just thought that it was maybe some anecdotal evidence of what is currently going on, from someone who is out there cycling, might be of interest to the Forum.

I (for one) am very interested in hearing the dope (pun intended) from inside the cycling world. It's really sad to hear it but I think we all need to know this stuff. Thanks Lim.

meehs said:

I (for one) am very interested in hearing the dope (pun intended) from inside the cycling world. It's really sad to hear it but I think we all need to know this stuff. Thanks Lim.

Meehs,

thanks.

I agree, it is sad to hear that people are using stuff to win races, to earn money, to live.
That's the way it appears to be out in that region of the world, unfortunately.

The overiding impression I got from my cycling friend is that poverty (no jobs
and no prospect of any jobs) forces guys with talent to pump themselves with this stuff in the hope that it will earn them money.
Reminds me of the 1930's and how people were forced to do things that they
wouldn't do under normal circumstances, in order to earn money.
Very sad.

birdman23 said:

Everyone talks about Lance doping and frankly I am getting sick and tired of reading the same old boring arguments. Nothing but repetition. So out of curiosity I put it to the forum to see who else is a doper. Feel free to add any names.

Here is a quote on a review of [censored] Voet's book. [censored] Voet was the Festina soigneur arrested in 1998 at a border with a load of drugs. The police were on the alert though a reported theft of PED type drugs from a hospital and the suspicion they were headed for the Tour de France peloton

"In the meantime, he has released a book, Chain Massacre: Revelations of 30 Years of Cheating. It details more than half a life's involvement in world cycling, where he estimates he treated 500 cyclists in his career and that, from them, the innocent ones he can "count them on two hands, maybe two hands and two feet if I'm generous". Only two ever tested positive."

20 clean cyclists out of 500 calculates to 4%. Voet claims 95% of the peloton are on PED's.

"Were there any clean riders? He said that Eric Caritoux won the Vuelta in 1984 without "using anything". But later he became involved in the scene. He said that in his knowledge that Charly Mottet and Gilles Delion were against using drugs. But as a consequence, Mottet never had the success that he could have had if he had have used drugs. He said that the peloton used to laugh at Delion when he used to open his suitcase up with all the herbs."

"In other chapters (12 in total) he outlines how Festina would swap HGH for EPO with other teams."