who knows about wool?

[email hidden] (Terry) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I...can confirm that 100% of the Welsh Mountain sheep [...] were wearing wool. Next time I can
ask them what they'd be wearing if they had a choice, if you like.

Actually evolution has made many choices down the years and this is what the fittest sheep
wear.Though they don't cycle much.

so if sheep had evolved in a warmer drier climate perhaps the coolmax ones would have prevailed

bestial wishes james

rifleman said:

have a look here: they do woollen vests and longjohns at reasonable prices.
jopasco.comindex.htmlOpen ↗

Requirement #1: to be able to try on a selection side by side with alternatives. Can't do that at a
website :-(

I'm thinking the sort of things Smartwool are making, that I can compare with various others at a
good outdoor store.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

[email hidden] (Terry) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I agree the warm when wet story sounds bollox but it has been said for a long time.I wondered
whether there was some theory involving energy release as fibres recurled when drying or water
bonding and unbonding to the fibres with energy release , or something....

It is true that wool is "warm when wet" or even "warmer when wet", but neither of those should be
taken to mean that wet wool is warmer than dry wool.

The point is that any fabric loses most of its insulating value when wet. This is particularly true
of cotton (hence the claim that "cotton kills!"😉 and of down (the feathers clump, the loft
disappears and the cold comes right in). But wet wool keeps more of its insulating ability (relative
to dry) than just about any other material. So, to that degree, it's "warm when wet" and even
"warmer [than almost anything else] when wet".

Quoted message said:

I think if there is a problem with this nearly perfect material it is that it gets heavy and
droops when wet.The old wool serge battledress did not seem to do that though.Perhaps it had a lot
of nylon in it to hold it together.

Depends on the wool, the yarn and whether knit or woven. The rather imposing suits worn by London
bankers, senior politicians and others are made of wool, but it's not knit Merino. If it were,
they'd look a lot more like rag dolls.

Peter Storey

rifleman said:

"mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Before Gore-Tex arrived on scene, the fabric of choice for the outer layer was 60/40 cloth, a mix
of 60% cotton and 40% polyester.

Quoted message said:

No, it was 100% long staple cotton known as Ventile - developed for immersion suits for pilots that
had to ditch in the sea in WWII.

Best mountain coat I ever had was Ventile. One of my most disappointing purchases was trying to buy
anbother one, and being told that that old-fashioned [censored] had been replaced by the immensely
superior (and very expensive) Goretex. I believed the salesman :-(

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's
Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK ["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Peter Clinch said:

rifleman said:

have a look here: they do woollen vests and longjohns at reasonable prices.
jopasco.comindex.htmlOpen ↗

Requirement #1: to be able to try on a selection side by side with alternatives. Can't do that at
a website :-(

I'm thinking the sort of things Smartwool are making, that I can compare with various others at a
good outdoor store.

Pete.

There was a brand called Swobo IIRC that was in all the MTB mags about 5 years ago. Made technical
bike wear in wool. Don't know if they are still around.

Tony

Chris Malcolm said:

Best mountain coat I ever had was Ventile. One of my most disappointing purchases was trying to
buy anbother one, and being told that that old-fashioned [censored] had been replaced by the immensely
superior (and very expensive) Goretex. I believed the salesman :-(

Ventile is still available if you hunt a little. Have a look at west-winds.co.ukwest-winds.co.ukOpen ↗ for
example, and though Slioch don't have full waterproof jackets in ventile on their standard stock
list they use it for smocks and since they do made-to-order and measure could probably be persuaded
to make up something in ventile for you. They're at slioch.co.ukslioch.co.ukOpen ↗

Where ventile is held in highest regard is for cold, dry conditions, because it's a fine enough
weave to be windproof and far, far more breathable than the likes of Goretex. But it's far from
perfect: if you walk up through the freezing level on a rainy day then the outside gets wet and
absorbs the moisture that swells the fibres, as per design, and this same moisture then freezes a
little higher up and you have the feeling you're wearing a jacket made from cardboard rather than
cotton... It also gains far more weight when it gets a good wetting than modern alternatives.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Chris Malcolm said:

Best mountain coat I ever had was Ventile. One of my most disappointing purchases was trying to
buy anbother one, and being told that that old-fashioned [censored] had been replaced by the immensely
superior (and very expensive) Goretex. I believed the salesman :-(

Ventile is still available if you hunt a little. Have a look at west-winds.co.ukwest-winds.co.ukOpen ↗ for
example, and though Slioch don't have full waterproof jackets in ventile on their standard stock
list they use it for smocks and since they do made-to-order and measure could probably be
persuaded to make up something in ventile for you. They're at slioch.co.ukslioch.co.ukOpen ↗

Where ventile is held in highest regard is for cold, dry conditions, because it's a fine enough
weave to be windproof and far, far more breathable than the likes of Goretex. But it's far from
perfect: if you walk up through the freezing level on a rainy day then the outside gets wet and
absorbs the moisture that swells the fibres, as per design, and this same moisture then freezes a
little higher up and you have the feeling you're wearing a jacket made from cardboard rather than
cotton... It also gains far more weight when it gets a good wetting than modern alternatives.

But in its favour there's no membrane to delaminate, and the outer shell is far far less impervious
to UV radiation than a synthetic material. It's also much easier (in my view) to repair. A good
double layer ventile jacket should, if accidental damage is discounted, last for many, many years,
far longer than any jacket made with synthetic material.

rifleman said:

But in its favour there's no membrane to delaminate

This is hardly unique to ventile though. Coatings such as Lowe's popular Triplepoint Ceramic won't
delaminate (by definition they can't, since they're not laminates).

Quoted message said:

far far less impervious to UV radiation than a synthetic material.

But note that not all synthetics suffer from UV as much as nylon. Polyester is far more stable under
UV, and used in some jacket shells.

Quoted message said:

much easier (in my view) to repair.

Depends to what extent you want to repair it... Puncture in a synthetic shell, stick a bit of
spinnaker tape on it, job done, total time a few seconds. You can get formal goretex patches for a
better job, but again it's just an iron-on job and very easy. If the damage will require needlework
ventile is probably ahead.

Quoted message said:

A good double layer ventile jacket should, if accidental damage is discounted, last for many,
many years, far longer than any jacket made with synthetic material.

My big TPC waterproof is now 8 years old and fine, with no sign of flagging, damage or needing
replacement. How many is "many, many"? A ventile one will probably last longer still, but the cost
differential is now such that it will need to to remain value for money, and the freezing after
getting wet and extra weight problems remain. I don't think they've been bypassed by modern
synthetics but unless you're traipsing about in places where the rain falls as snow every time
they're not head and shoulders above them either.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A good double layer ventile jacket
should, if accidental damage is discounted, last for many, many years,

far

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

longer than any jacket made with synthetic material.

My big TPC waterproof is now 8 years old and fine, with no sign of flagging, damage or needing
replacement. How many is "many, many"?

Oh I should think twenty years at a pinch. There ARE still people out there wearing ventile garments
that are certainly that old!

rifleman said:

Oh I should think twenty years at a pinch. There ARE still people out there wearing ventile
garments that are certainly that old!

I don't doubt it. But I see at least a few goretex jackets that I know have been out of production
since the 80s (distinctive ones like the original Berghaus Alpine Extreme) and still seem to be in
regular use.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

rifleman <[email hidden]> wrote:
: [re life of ventile jackets] Oh I should think twenty years at a pinch. There ARE still people out
: there wearing ventile garments that are certainly that old!

But think out unfashionable it'll be after 20 years!

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune clune.orgclune.orgOpen ↗ "Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

Arthur Clune said:

But think out unfashionable it'll be after 20 years!

Probably no more unfashionable than it already is... ;-/

OTOH, if we look at the cyclic nature of what's "in" then retro ventile raincoats might be the acme
of cool in 2023. Sounds ridiculous, I'll grant you, but then we'd have said that about flares ever
rearing their ugly selves ever again before they came back into fashion in recent years. I look back
at what I thought I looked cool in back around the Silver Jubilee and wonder *what on earth* I was
thinking... I wonder if the current crop of fashion victims will be doing the same in 20 years?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

rifleman said:

Oh I should think twenty years at a pinch. There ARE still people out there wearing ventile
garments that are certainly that old!

I am still using a ventile jacket that is at least thirty years old. Luvverly material.

Tony

Arthur Clune said:

But think out unfashionable it'll be after 20 years!

My flares from my youth were unfashionable until recently. Still waiting for the kaftan, afghan coat
and RAF greatcoat to make a comeback though.

Tony

Peter Clinch said:

I wonder if the current crop of fashion victims will be doing the same in 20 years?

I despair when I see a friend's twelve year old daughter tottering about in flares and platforms. Is
/this/ what we fought the Punk Wars for?

Or something.

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Style Consultant to Nigel "Derriboots" Leaper.
===========================================================

Dave Larrington said:

Peter Clinch said:

I wonder if the current crop of fashion victims will be doing the same in 20 years?

I despair when I see a friend's twelve year old daughter tottering about in flares and platforms.
Is /this/ what we fought the Punk Wars for?

A case of, "Braking blocks on the hot rim, I fought the flares and the flares won."

Colin
--

rifleman said:

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A good double layer ventile jacket
should, if accidental damage is discounted, last for many, many years,

far

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

longer than any jacket made with synthetic material.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My big TPC waterproof is now 8 years old and fine, with no sign of flagging, damage or needing
replacement. How many is "many, many"?

Quoted message said:

Oh I should think twenty years at a pinch. There ARE still people out there wearing ventile
garments that are certainly that old!

I gave my Ventile coat up when it was 25 years old and I'd worn it most days of those 25 years. They
wouldn't let me into posh pubs and restaurants wearing it, and wife was becoming very reluctant to
be seen with me wearing it. If only I'd kept it a few more years it would have become passable again
along with ripped jeans, slashed T-shirts, and fashionably frayed hems.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's
Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK ["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

mae <[email hidden]> wedi ysgrifennu:

Quoted message said:

so if sheep had evolved in a warmer drier climate perhaps the coolmax ones would have prevailed

I once visited a rare breeds farm near Oban where they had some 'wild' sheep. It was claimed that
these creatures were from central Turkey and that all domesticated varieties were descended from
this species. They were recognisably sheep, but they had very short coats. From this it appears that
the 'wooliness' of modern sheep is a result of selective breeding rather than evolution as such.
Because of their 'wildness' they were very timid, so I can't say that I got close enough to examine
how wooly (or, indeed, coolmaxy) the coat was.

--
Rob

Please keep conversations in the newsgroup so that all may contribute and benefit.

Peter Clinch said:

ventile raincoats might be the acme of cool in 2023. Sounds ridiculous, I'll grant you, but then
we'd have said that about flares ever rearing their ugly selves ever again before they came back
into fashion in recent years.

Flares took a bit longer to come around again than most fashions, though, despite the best attempts
of the fashion gurus. They had to wait until those of us who were at school during the 80's, when
wearing flares said "my Mum buys all my clothes from Oxfam," had grown too old for fashion.

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukdannyOpen ↗ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine